673 réponses à ce sujet

[cjones91]

Seriously! I'd loved being able to roast some people the way Ketojan does himself. That'd been so good.
 

Mmm....roasting people with magical fire and electricity sounds fun.

[Wissenschaft]

I'm more just curious where you're actually getting the numbers from.

 

From podcasts I listen to and articles I read. An actual article for CoD is here:

http://www.lazygamer...ers-are-female/

Thats about 1/4 of CoD players are female, meaning, about 75% are male. That still means millions of women play CoD but it also means woman are not the majority of CoD players.

[Senya]

I hope Viv will be bi, because I want as many people to have options as possible, but it really does drive home how gay men have always been Bioware's lowest priority and continue to be.

I rather disagree. There is a reason why Bioware has a gay-friendly reputation. How many other game studios create gay romances?

[Ryzaki]

Aww yeah. Maybe DAI will let us kill people with something more appropriate to our chosen class...

 

Ahh dare to dream.

 

DA2 had some mage specific kills but they were...kind of lame. (Like the rock wraith and Cory).

 

XD

 

 

Mmm....roasting people with magical fire and electricity sounds fun.

 

Yeesss. The murder knife should be served for skinning animals clearly :3

[TKavatar]

I rather disagree. There is a reason why Bioware has a gay-friendly reputation. How many other game studios create gay romances?

 

Yeah, plus the lead writer is also gay.

[Wissenschaft]

I hope Viv will be bi, because I want as many people to have options as possible, but it really does drive home how gay men have always been Bioware's lowest priority and continue to be. 

 

But gay men have as many options are Lesbians, two. Ironbull and Dorian for gay men specifically. How is having two options instead of three options a sign that gay men are Bioware's lowest priority? Unless your saying that a BI LI doesn't count because their not exclusively gay.

[sandalisthemaker]

Sigh.

 

That doesn't mean we should always be content with constantly getting less.

[cjones91]

DA2 had some mage specific kills but they were...kind of lame. (Like the rock wraith and Cory).

 

XD

 

 

 

Yeesss. The murder knife should be served for skinning animals clearly :3

Or skinning people.

[Cainhurst Crow]

There's a fair amount of evidence the IRL racists can point to in defence of their belief that race exists as more than a social construct, and there are legitimate scientists (namely geneticists) out there who support the view. It's certainly not in the majority, but it is not an out of this world view. There are a number of things the social construct view has to succeed in explaining away, particularly that IRL racial categories can be identified via gene clusters. 

 

The idea that "elf" is some sort of metaphysically meaningful category has no basis in the DA lore. The only thing that has a basis is the fact that elves can't produce prototypical elves with non-elves. 

 

But to say something like - only the children of two elf parents can be called elves - requires importing a lot of the same kind of assumptions that go into making race a social construct. Importing moral values, like the fact that there is some worth in overriding individual choice to propagate this phenotype, is purely the same sort of moral judgement IRL racists will make. 

 

Fantasy races don't avoid any of the IRL race problems, other than the fact that some people think racism wouldn't be racism if races were real rather than social constructs. 

 

It's not that they can't produce prototypical elves, its that they can produce no elves with a partner who isn't an elf. No sharp ears, No thin frame, Nothing to seperate them from any other human, qunari, or dwarf they bear a child for.

 

Also I find your argument to be repulsive, because when you just say that all that matters is social constructs, you completely ignore any meaning to those social constructs in the first place. You're attempting to reconcile two radically different situations by claiming its all social construct when its not. A single generation being all it takes to lose any and all traces of a parents traits? That's a lot different from a slow absorption of a species into another as the two blend to form a newer species and "race".

 

You can't hand wave that away as being only a social construct, there's something definitive and final going on with the loss of the traits.

[Ryzaki]

Or skinning people.

 

*nose wrinkles*

 

Nah that's what the slave- *cough* companions are for.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I rather disagree. There is a reason why Bioware has a gay-friendly reputation. How many other game studios create gay romances?

When every other demographic has more choices, you're still making that your lowest priority. And Bioware has only offered gay romances in a small amount of their own games. While there were same sex options for females in all 3 ME games, males only got options in the last. It's been pretty clear over Bioware's history that gay men are the first to get shorted, consistently.  

[Ianamus]

Sigh.

 

That doesn't mean we should always be content with constantly getting less.

 

It's important to remember that Bioware games aren't being designed, targeted or marketed towards people looking for same gender romance content. It's a nice addition, but their primary market is all gamers, which consists primarily of straight men and women, so it makes sense that they would get more options. 

 

If we want more we need games specifically made for same gender romance content. Japan does it, so I don't see why the west can't. 

[Mihura]

I hope Viv will be bi, because I want as many people to have options as possible, but it really does drive home how gay men have always been Bioware's lowest priority and continue to be. 

 

See this way, Vivienne is probably straight and at least gay man and some other people can romance at least two companions! Lesbians and some other people only have one companion to romance. At least this time it is not an npc like Mass Effect.

To tell you the true my first wish, was that Vivienne should not have been romancable because that would make all female companions LIs, at least this time they should have more queer men to compensate the previews game. Still not holding my breath.  

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But gay men have as many options are Lesbians, two. Ironbull and Dorian for gay men specifically. How is having two options instead of three options a sign that gay men are Bioware's lowest priority? Unless your saying that a BI LI doesn't count because their not exclusively gay.

If Viv was bi, everyone would have 3 options except gay men. That was the scenario I was responding to. 

[pastabender]

Ok I retract my earlier statement about straight females having the least options, which probably means Viv is going to be the LI so straight men have equal. It would be so nice to see that not be the case though. I'd love to see straight males for once get the lesser end of the stick, if just to maybe make them realise how the rest of us feel normally in gaming. 

 

Also I'll probably play different roles at some point, BUT as my first playthrough as a gay male trying to represent me to the fullest, I would like a lot of options for once. 

[BobZilla84]

I am not surprised about Solas I expected him to be Racegated if he was a Romance so thats great news for Solas fans now we only need the orientation to be released.

 

I am stll hoping Vivienne is the last LI and I hope shes not racegated but we will have to wait and see.

[cjones91]

*nose wrinkles*

 

Nah that's what the slave- *cough* companions are for.

They never get it right,there's a technique to that sort of thing.

[TheTurtle]

I hope Vivienne is the last romance because if they're not going to do equal romance for each sexuality they could at least make the genders even

[pallascedar]

I rather disagree. There is a reason why Bioware has a gay-friendly reputation. How many other game studios create gay romances?

 

Sometimes though, being the best in the industry doesn't always mean that they're still at the goal .

[InfinitePaths]

I hope Vivienne is the last romance because if they're not going to do equal romance for each sexuality they could at least make the genders even

 

If blackwall is gay the sexuallities would be equal though.

[In Exile]

It's not that they can't produce prototypical elves, its that they can produce no elves with a partner who isn't an elf. No sharp ears, No thin frame, Nothing to seperate them from any other human, qunari, or dwarf they bear a child for.

 

That's just a physical trait. That's not what being "elven" means, anymore than being a member of any particular culture or group IRL is reducible to just physical features. 

 

Also I find your argument to be repulsive, because when you just say that all that matters is social constructs, you completely ignore any meaning to those social constructs in the first place. You're attempting to reconcile two radically different situations by claiming its all social construct when its not. A single generation being all it takes to lose any and all traces of a parents traits? That's a lot different from a slow absorption of a species into another as the two blend to form a newer species and "race"

 

I never claimed that a social construct is all that matters. What I said was that the moral judgement - that there is some intrinsic value to preserving a particular unique physical phenotype, that there is somehow a moral entitlement to want to reproduce only with a certain kind of people, that it would be wrong to judge those who hold this particular attitude - is a totally separate question from the question of fact. 

 

To say that the physical traits matter - that they have worth - is making a moral judgement. And that moral judgement has nothing to do with the underlying physical reality. 

 

Right now you're trying to say that there's something intrinsically worthwhile about preserving some combination of physical traits. Because being "elven" is more than just physical traits. There's culture. Beliefs. Attitudes. 

[Ryzaki]

They never get it right,there's a technique to that sort of thing.

 

Hmph. They shall be learn. Or learn to fear the glowing fist

 

As for romances:

 

Honestly I just want them to announce the last LI know. We know everyone except the last person. Sooooon hopefully.

[InfinitePaths]

But gay men have as many options are Lesbians, two. Ironbull and Dorian for gay men specifically. How is having two options instead of three options a sign that gay men are Bioware's lowest priority? Unless your saying that a BI LI doesn't count because their not exclusively gay.

 

If Vivienne is Bi they would mathematically have the least number of options, de facto less content than other options.

[Mihura]

If blackwall is gay the sexuallities would be equal though.

 

I am actually thorn about this lol I like them both but I doubt it at this point. 

[Jester]

I don't have time to deal with all of this nonsense.  What I can say?  Anders' writer, the Head Writer for the series, confirmed that Anders was always bisexual.  Sorry that Anders didn't make that clear enough for you.  He should lose his bisexual card, since I'm pretty sure that it's stated right on the front, "Warning, you must declare your attraction to the other gender after expressing attraction to one gender!"

Perhaps. But it isn't shown in the game in any way. He never expresses any affection or feelings neither for the Warden, nor any male NPC. Instead he hits on female characters in the game, and jokes with Oghren about how robes allow for quick intercourses in the Circle. In DA2 he's suddenly revealed to have had a relationship with Carl, and begins flirting with male Hawke - while female Hawke has to initiate romance herself.

Why David Gaider did not indicate his interest in males in any way in Awekening? In DA2 he was written by a different person, so I'll remain unconvinced.

 

I have to disagree with this for several reasons - not least of which is that "overrepresentation" of homosexuals never leads to people believing that heterosexuality is an aberration or a defect of character that shouldn't be present in heroic figures. While overrepresentation of heterosexual characters does lead to the stigmatization and marginalization of non-heterosexual characters.

 

Also, Thedas is a world of magic, dragons, and invented races and religions. You don't find it plausible that their sexualities and their rate of commonality would be different from our world, too?

Should the presentation in the piece of art (yes, I consider games a piece of art, just like I consider a book or a movie art) be affected by possible reception by ignorant people? I don't think so. It's not a role of a game for adults to educate people about such matters. 

 

And no, I don't think that the existance of dragons or magic affects in any way the composition of the society. Notice, that the game represents phenomenons and problems existing in our world - oppression of minorities, freedom of individual vs. laws of society, wars meant to force one and only true viewpoint, advantages and disadvantages of religion, or collectivism. Dragon Age world presents many of problems that we struggle with in our own societies, just in different context. And so homosexuality should be represented in a realistic way. 

 

Equal LIs in one game does not equal overrepresentation of homosexuals in games. You MIGHT have an argument if most of the NPCs you met were also gay but they won't be, so you have no point.

LIs are a part of the world, and as such they are a representative sample of it. In fact, your companions are meant to represent certain viewpoints, beliefs or political stances present it the world. 

In DA:O we had Leliana representing Andrastians, Sten representing the Qun, Morrigan representing freedom and power, Oghren representing dwarves - though in fact he is everything that most of the Orzammar dwarves are not, Zevran represents elven discrimination and elves being used as tools, not real members of society, Loghain represents Farelden, while Alistair represents the Wardens. 

In DA2 it was even more pronaunced. Need I say about Anders, Merill, Aveline or Fenris?

In whole Mass Effect franchise, we always had only one member of every non-human race as a crew member. That is not a coincidence. 

 

As such, LIs should also represent various sexualities existing in the world - in proportions (at least to a degree).

 

Over representation of homosexuality? Your straight white privilege is showing.

The only way homosexuality is going to be less stigmatised in society and in gaming is to HAVE these options at least on equal footing. Straight people have had all their options catered to since gaming began, would it be so bad and unrealistic to have an increasing amount of LGBTQ options ESPECIALLY in a fantasy game???

I'm not sure where you got your stats from (I can't be bothered actually quoting you) and yeh it's known LGBTQ people represent a smaller portion of the general populace (but this in itself is still flawed because there's still a lot of people still lying/not comfortable with it), but that in no way means they should be treated as such. That still perpetuates the idea that we are lesser people. I hope you can rethink on your argument.

Insulting me in the first line you wrote shows a very poor style of discussion and doesn't really encourage me to "rethink my argument".

 

Homosexual people are a minority. Why should they be represented in a game as equally abundant as straight people? Having 2 homosexual and 2 bisexual characters out of 8 possibilities, is already more than enough in terms of representation. It means that every possible peson have at least two options. Considering, that in many games 2 options are all that is for any character to have (KotOR, NWN2, DA2 unless you're bisexual...), I'm suprised we're even having this discussion.

I mean, 15 years ago, it was unimaginable to even have a homosexual romance in an RPG. Now you have two in the game, and yet you complain that it should be equal? For what reason?

 

Jester, a fantasy game does not need to form to real world "statistics" regarding sexuality.

 

With eight romantic options available in this game, the most of any bioware game, we should be happy to have any of them as an option. I'm a little bummed that Dorian is only available as a male romance because I never play male characters, but that is hardly something that is going to affect my "immersion" in the game. And I can respect that that was the sexual identity created for him by the writer.

 

Again, this is an adventure role playing game. Not a dating Sim.

 

I'm going to perhaps prematurally assume that Vivienne is the final romance and the final race gated romance as well.

Actually, Dorian is one of the characters that I'm most looking forward to meet in-game apart from Solas. I have no issue with his homosexuality, just as I have no issue with Sera's homosexuality. It's fine, it's realistic, we have every sexuality represented in the game. And this is where it should stop. Minorities are represented, as they should be, but most of characters in the world (as well as most of LI - because they as companions, serve as a representants of the world) should be heterosexual. Otherwise... well, we abandon logic and coherence of the world in order to make... dating Sims. 

 

I will say that again, because I don't think any of my opponents understtod or read my words.

In this case, quality should prevail over quantity. Instead of making an equal number of homosexual characters, there should be strong, interesting characters representing minorities. They already have very strong and important lesbian characters - Leliana, Celene and Briala. Unfortunately, gay charactrs ar lacking in that regard, but I think that Dorian might be able to make a difference. I don't think that quantity is the way to represent homosexuals in media. On the contrary, it might have the opposite effect to what you'd like to accomplish.