How do you people feel about putting hybrid classes in Dragon Age? Mass Effect has them. Could it work in DA?
Rogue/Mage = Stealth Mage
Rogue/Warrior = Tank Rogue
Mage/Warrior = Arcane Warrior/Knight Enchanter/Something new?
Personally I would love to play as a ninja mage. Imagine the possibilities...
Well, Arcane Warrior is an available spec for mages, so at least one "hybrid" is in. I suspect that reaver will have a bit of a quasi-magical feel to it as well.
Well, Arcane Warrior is an available spec for mages, so at least one "hybrid" is in. I suspect that reaver will have a bit of a quasi-magical feel to it as well.
Mage/Warrior and Warrior/Mage then lol
Reavers have dragon blood powers so I guess it counts.
Now that I think about it, the Shadow spec from DA2 can be seen as quasi-magical as well because of the Decoy ability. That's just straight up ninja magic right there.
The alchemist is kind of a mage/rogue don't you think? And then templars and reavers both have magic abilities.
Like half or more of the characters look like hybrids. Its just not hybrids between Mage/Warrior/Rogue and more like hybrid between offensive/defensive/offensive-support/defensive-support/long-range/area/short-range.
Like the alchemist probably throws bombs and uses poisons and poultices which mimic traditional "mage" behavior. Reaver has this cool extreme damage output thing going for it as well as self healing and possibly a damaging aoe aura.
I haven't quite figured out the Katari yet but my imagination tells me it is a non-traditional warrior blending with the "rogue" ideology. I forsee single-target-attacks with side-effects or critical potential.
I'm betting we'll have a better answer early next week when everyone currently at PAX has had time to write their articles.
The alchemist is kind of a mage/rogue don't you think? And then templars and reavers both have magic abilities.
Nah man. Grenade spam isn't the same thing as magic or even quasi-magic powers. Literally anyone can do it.
Nah man. Grenade spam isn't the same thing as magic or even quasi-magic powers. Literally anyone can do it.
What? Have you tried to make handheld explosives using raw gunpowder or Lyrium and then throwing them accurately in the heat of battle? Well I have, and as far as you know I have the absence of fingers to prove that it's right up there with your quasi-magic. Friggin ice-bombs man, I tell you what..
I think it is natural that there will be more and more if the game is successful. They will be looking at any and all design space that will play well and fit the lore. So it's entirely possible you will see a Duelist who is extremely difficult to hit or a ninja like weapon master who uses light armor but duel wields and backstabs or an Illusionist who uses magic to vanish and reappear behind the foe.
What? Have you tried to make handheld explosives using raw gunpowder or Lyrium and then throwing them accurately in the heat of battle? Well I have, and as far as you know I have the absence of fingers to prove that it's right up there with your quasi-magic. Friggin ice-bombs man, I tell you what..
LOL!
I think it is natural that there will be more and more if the game is successful. They will be looking at any and all design space that will play well and fit the lore. So it's entirely possible you will see a Duelist who is extremely difficult to hit or a ninja like weapon master who uses light armor but duel wields and backstabs or an Illusionist who uses magic to vanish and reappear behind the foe.
Too bad they don't just let us make our very own characters though huh?
Pick a race
Customize their appearance
Pick a class
Pick starter skills
Play game
No armor restrictions. Any class can wear anything. However, heavier armor means slower character movement. No weapon restrictions.
I'd also like to make every skill available to every character but that would destroy the class system. The lore supports a ninja mage type character which is my dream DA character but the gameplay itself does not.
I am always up for new customisation options, bu on hybrid classes in particular... It could work, but Dragon Age is a party-based game that uses distinct roles and so on, so a straight-up hybrid wouldn't really work. In Mass Effect the other squadmates are far more "complimentary" to the main skills of Shepard, at least compared to DA, and even then in Mass Effect 2 the whole "hybrid" thing is basically dropped. E.g. the Infiltrator is less Combat/Tech and more "sniper", and the Vanguard has a very different playstyle to the Adept or the Soldier.
A stealth mage, for instance, does sound awesome. Dare I say, incredibly so! The key question is, however, what's it actually going to bring to the table? It can't just be a rogue with a magic flavour ("I'm not stealthing, I'm turning invisible!"), but it also can't be a mage with a couple of rogue abilities tossed in or a rogue with a few fireball spells.
The other alternative is to just drop classes altogether and give you a wide bunch of abilities to choose from yourself, an interesting solution but one that's probably not going to be used any time soon. I don't actually have anything against doing this, but we can only dream.
Too bad they don't just let us make our very own characters though huh?
Pick a race
Customize their appearance
Pick a class
Pick starter skills
Play game
No armor restrictions. Any class can wear anything. However, heavier armor means slower character movement. No weapon restrictions.
I'd also like to make every skill available to every character but that would destroy the class system. The lore supports a ninja mage type character which is my dream DA character but the gameplay itself does not.
Personally I am very happy they don't let us make our own classes. Limitations are just as valuable a part of the gameplay variety experience as lots of different powers. IF ME3 had been build your own, I probably would have regularly played 5 different combinations rather 40+.
The alchemist is kind of a mage/rogue don't you think? And then templars and reavers both have magic abilities.
The Alchemist is less of a mage and more of an engineer/assassin. Gadgets, gadgets, gadgets!
I think the Hunter is going to be a Mage/Archer hybrid though. Something about that feels right.
Balance wise, its won't be problematic for a character to have access to different class' skill trees as long as those trees don't enable a character to perform multiple roles simultaneously. IE, the Arcane Warrior shouldn't be able to serve as the party tank and still have the highest DPS in the party.
in my mind there are already hybrid classes in the game.
the problem with hybrid classes is they never gimp them enough in games. Once you have a maxed hybrid class they out do the normal tank class leaps and bounds and makes the character a waste of space. If you're going to get the talent of two different characters you should be able to reach 3/4 of their power at the very most...and not in every aspect.
the problem with hybrid classes is they never gimp them enough in games.
Then there's the opposite problem where "master of none" translates to "kinda crap at everything". It's a tough balancing act.
Personally I am very happy they don't let us make our own classes. Limitations are just as valuable a part of the gameplay variety experience as lots of different powers. IF ME3 had been build your own, I probably would have regularly played 5 different combinations rather 40+.
I don't see limitations as being valuable especially when they violate lore, or ruin immersion, or lead to characters/players being pigeonholed.
I am always up for new customisation options, bu on hybrid classes in particular... It could work, but Dragon Age is a party-based game that uses distinct roles and so on, so a straight-up hybrid wouldn't really work. In Mass Effect the other squadmates are far more "complimentary" to the main skills of Shepard, at least compared to DA, and even then in Mass Effect 2 the whole "hybrid" thing is basically dropped. E.g. the Infiltrator is less Combat/Tech and more "sniper", and the Vanguard has a very different playstyle to the Adept or the Soldier.
A stealth mage, for instance, does sound awesome. Dare I say, incredibly so! The key question is, however, what's it actually going to bring to the table? It can't just be a rogue with a magic flavour ("I'm not stealthing, I'm turning invisible!"), but it also can't be a mage with a couple of rogue abilities tossed in or a rogue with a few fireball spells.
The other alternative is to just drop classes altogether and give you a wide bunch of abilities to choose from yourself, an interesting solution but one that's probably not going to be used any time soon. I don't actually have anything against doing this, but we can only dream.
In ME the classes are based on what abilities they have. An Infiltrator with Marksman, Overload, and Shadow Slash is just as much a Tech/Combat hybrid as an Infiltrator with Tactical Cloak, Sabotage, and Inferno Ammo. Even Smash, Lash, and Tactical Cloak would work because Tactical Cloak is a skill unique to Infiltrators and as such can be used to define the class. Similar to Biotic Charge for Vanguards and Combat Drone for Engineers. Being a biotic doesn't stop a character from being any class they want and neither should being a mage.
Working within the DA system of class=combat role then the hybrid can be a mix of any two roles but will be less effective at each one specifically. A rogue/mage can then be a mage that is elusive and geared towards single target combat with some minor crowd control spells. A rogue/warrior can be a aggro magnet that can survive the onslaught with evasive moves. A mage/warrior can aggro and debilitate the crowd while healing and buffing the party. I think it could work. I'll come up with a possible skill list for each in a bit...
In ME the classes are based on what abilities they have. An Infiltrator with Marksman, Overload, and Shadow Slash is just as much a Tech/Combat hybrid as an Infiltrator with Tactical Cloak, Sabotage, and Inferno Ammo. Even Smash, Lash, and Tactical Cloak would work because Tactical Cloak is a skill unique to Infiltrators and as such can be used to define the class. Similar to Biotic Charge for Vanguards and Combat Drone for Engineers. Being a biotic doesn't stop a character from being any class they want and neither should being a mage.
Tactical Cloak is hardly a direct mix of Adrenaline Rush and Combat Drone, however. Same for Tech Armor and Combat Drone/Singularity. I know they are other elements of the classes, of course, but post-ME1 they're not exactly hybrids (Sentinel is the exception ability-wise, but its "distinct" role appears to be "jack-of-all-trades"). They're each unique classes in-of-themselves, with some overlap here and there. Even when their role is the same, the playstyle can be very different.
I'm not opposed to, say, a new class that is a mage, the type of people with magic in their arse, that isn't a Mage, the current class in robes and staves.
Working within the DA system of class=combat role then the hybrid can be a mix of any two roles but will be less effective at each one specifically. A rogue/mage can then be a mage that is elusive and geared towards single target combat with some minor crowd control spells. A rogue/warrior can be a aggro magnet that can survive the onslaught with evasive moves. A mage/warrior can aggro and debilitate the crowd while healing and buffing the party. I think it could work. I'll come up with a possible skill list for each in a bit...
This can work, but it often leads to having those two classes either wasting a slot, or having the hybrid be a waste of slot who'd we'd better off dropping for a specialist.
This can work, but it often leads to having those two classes either wasting a slot, or having the hybrid be a waste of slot who'd we'd better off dropping for a specialist.
Being a specialist requires a team of complementary specialists to round out the areas each one lacks. Then, if those specialists don't work together it doesn't really matter. Sometimes you want a hybrid to broaden your capabilities. Sometimes that is because you don't want to or can't trust your team, and sometimes it's because it's fun. Maybe (probably) you won't be as effective as four specialists working together, but that is OK.
If you really look at the role system down to its very core, I think you would find that the actual class isn't represented there. It's an abstraction. So you could have a mage that has all close range attacks and functions exactly as a warrior does, but it would technically be a mage because he is using magic (as an extreme example). So aside from whatever ideology Bioware uses to keep their three classes distict (which I think has merit), there is wiggle-room and utility in hybrid classes, especially in MP.
Balancing hybrids is extremely tough. There are basicly two pitfalls:
1. Make them in one or two areas as good as their specialised class. That makes the specialised classes superfluous, leading to endless forum whines.
2. Make them not as good as the specialised classes, which leads to the case that the hybrids become superfluous in extremely well-tuned parties, because there is no reason to take a hybrid if you need another specialist.
So what you need is a unique role for the hybrids, which adds another dimension to the party that cannot be replaced, but does not replace any other character type completely either.
Being a specialist requires a team of complementary specialists to round out the areas each one lacks. Then, if those specialists don't work together it doesn't really matter. Sometimes you want a hybrid to broaden your capabilities. Sometimes that is because you don't want to or can't trust your team, and sometimes it's because it's fun. Maybe (probably) you won't be as effective as four specialists working together, but that is OK.
If you really look at the role system down to its very core, I think you would find that the actual class isn't represented there. It's an abstraction. So you could have a mage that has all close range attacks and functions exactly as a warrior does, but it would technically be a mage because he is using magic (as an extreme example). So aside from whatever ideology Bioware uses to keep their three classes distict (which I think has merit), there is wiggle-room and utility in hybrid classes, especially in MP.
Exactly. Great post.
The roles boil down to:
Aggro
DPS
Crowd control
So hybrids would be 50% of each:
Aggro/DPS
Aggro/Crowd control
DPS/Crowd control
These specialist and hybrid roles can be used for any class and my ninja mage could potentially fill any one of them but i'd opt for the DPS/Crowd control hybrid if given the chance.
Exactly. Great post.
The roles boil down to:
Aggro
DPS
Crowd control
So hybrids would be 50% of each:
Aggro/DPS
Aggro/Crowd control
DPS/Crowd control
These specialist and hybrid roles can be used for any class and my ninja mage could potentially fill any one of them but i'd opt for the DPS/Crowd control hybrid if given the chance.
You really can't afford to have only half the aggro of a pure tank, who would also be capable of some damage output.
That just makes your tanking half useless to the group because the pure DPS generates more aggro than you do.
The Alchemist is less of a mage and more of an engineer/assassin. Gadgets, gadgets, gadgets!
I think the Hunter is going to be a Mage/Archer hybrid though. Something about that feels right.
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