40 réponses à ce sujet

[Treacherous J Slither]

You really can't afford to have only half the aggro of a pure tank, who would also be capable of some damage output.

 

That just makes your tanking half useless to the group because the pure DPS generates more aggro than you do.

 

The half tank is designed to hold aggro but not as well as a pure tank. A little of this a little of that. If the pure DPS catches some heat then so be it. I don't like the idea of being forced to have certain combat roles filled anyway. Any combination of 4 players should be fine. All DPS or half crowd control half aggro machine or anything. Whatever the players want to do.

[Cyonan]

The half tank is designed to hold aggro but not as well as a pure tank. A little of this a little of that. If the pure DPS catches some heat then so be it. I don't like the idea of being forced to have certain combat roles filled anyway. Any combination of 4 players should be fine. All DPS or half crowd control half aggro machine or anything. Whatever the players want to do.

 

Aggro isn't something you can "kind of hold" though. It's either you're holding it against the pure DPS or you aren't.

 

If you're gonna do a Hybrid Tank/DPS in my opinion it's better to give them full aggro generation but be squishier and harder hitting than a tank.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Aggro isn't something you can "kind of hold" though. It's either you're holding it against the pure DPS or you aren't.

 

If you're gonna do a Hybrid Tank/DPS in my opinion it's better to give them full aggro generation but be squishier and harder hitting than a tank.

 

That's cool. Whatever works.

[ntrisley]

I doubt the hunter is a mage/archer, most likely an archer/dagger hybrid.

Assuming that the Archer is going to have no melee capability for when things get in close is a mistake.

 

Realistically, a Mage/Archer is easily doable. No damaging spells but instead augments. Things like a groupwide buff to attack speeds or being able to call down a fog to shroud the group are easily added.

[ntrisley]

The half tank is designed to hold aggro but not as well as a pure tank. A little of this a little of that. If the pure DPS catches some heat then so be it. I don't like the idea of being forced to have certain combat roles filled anyway. Any combination of 4 players should be fine. All DPS or half crowd control half aggro machine or anything. Whatever the players want to do.

The "half tank" concept is something that gets thrown out when players want to complain about pure tanks getting "outshone" by the hybrids without understanding the mechanics that are part of said "half tank".

[Pistolized]

It seems to me (or I imagine) that there are not three roles which characters are defined.  There aren't three base classes but twelve.  So number eleven doesn't have to be dps/tank/support, it's just 11 of 12.  I envision a spectrum of roles, with non-discrete range of values.  

 

 

Trinity:

A    B    C

 

Spectrum:

|o     d    e    y u              i   j      z        b  w           a     d|   (but, you know, three dimensional instead of one (or 4d or 5d or 12d)

|100%A                                                                100%C|

 

Did that make sense at all?  Probably not.  Anyway, I envisioned the same thing for SW:TOR and look what happened there.  (FYI: not that)  

 

Edit: And sure, a party should be rounded out to include the various "roles" but it could (should) be like ME1's character selection where a character could be hybrid, and the whole team would itself be a hybrid (40%soldier / 15%tech / 45%biotic)  ...  That's a bad analogy, but I'm going to leave it.

[Cyonan]

It seems to me (or I imagine) that there are not three roles which characters are defined.  There aren't three base classes but twelve.  So number eleven doesn't have to be dps/tank/support, it's just 11 of 12.  I envision a spectrum of roles, with non-discrete range of values.  

 

 

Trinity:

A    B    C

 

Spectrum:

|o     d    e    y u              i   j      z        b  w           a     d|   (but, you know, three dimensional instead of one (or 4d or 5d or 12d)

|100%A                                                                100%C|

 

Did that make sense at all?  Probably not.  Anyway, I envisioned the same thing for SW:TOR and look what happened there.  (FYI: not that)  

 

Edit: And sure, a party should be rounded out to include the various "roles" but it could (should) be like ME1's character selection where a character could be hybrid, and the whole team would itself be a hybrid (40%soldier / 15%tech / 45%biotic)  ...  That's a bad analogy, but I'm going to leave it.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if we get something more like this rather than a proper holy trinity with a few half and half characters.

 

BioWare already is notably against pure healer characters in the single-player which makes me doubt they're going to exist in multi-player as well. That right there would knock a third of the trinity out of the running, and on top of that it's not uncommon for tanks to already be decent DPS in their own right. It's really certain MMOs that kind of got people started on the idea that tanks don't deal good damage.

 

In reality I think everybody will have varying levels of DPS, Tanking, Healing, and Utility rather than be a clear cut role.

[The Baconer]

The roles boil down to:

 

Aggro 

DPS 

Crowd control

 

Gross.

[Lavaeolus]

The roles boil down to:
 
Aggro 
DPS 
Crowd control

 
I have to question the limits of these roles, not helped by "aggro" being the same sort of thing as crowd control. Some other role ideas:

Spoiler

Key target elimination: Think the rogue who stealths in behind the enemy mage on a littered battlefield before the fighting starts, or an archer with a special Arrow of Slaying with their name on it. Arguably DPS, but is more akin to crowd control -- they don't kill the mob, they're just disabling the one character or two who'd wreck up your ****. Very different, however, from a Force Mage or a mage specialising in sleep and interrupts. And obviously different from the tank.
 
Support: The guy who gives the guy about to take a battering ram in the face a sudden two second immunity to all damage, who can negate negative side effects and maybe even transfer them to the enemy, and in all likelihood can restore your health by 50 points. I could maybe split this role a bit, but so on. Subset is healers, of course. Honestly, this is one I'm shocked you didn't mention. When people limit it to three roles, it's usually "Tank", "DPS", "Healer" (even has a TV Tropes page now, new page, spreading the word), with sometimes a nod to crowd control.
 
Weakener: This guy doesn't directly do damage, nor does he prevent movement or shut down people's spells. Rather, he removes armour, increases all damage dealt, and removes resistance to special effects, or so on. With him behind you, you better watch out for a stun or that big greatsword heading your way -- it'll smart.

I could also suggest the scout (walks in first, gets all the information on the enemy) or the trap-setter (basically same as the last one, but lays traps everywhere) but these are basically utility and have very little combat role. I don't see them getting too much traction, right or wrong, in single-player, let alone multiplayer. If I really racked my brains, I could come up with some more.
 
I would rather see a new class, hybrid in theme or no, cover something like this. I never looked at an Infiltrator and thought, "Man, I could've just brought along an Engineer and a Soldier for the same effect".

[Reptillius]

I get the feeling that the hunter is more of an archer/assassin combination.  What I mean by this is they are likely ranged but with effects like arrow of slaying and mark of death for their abilities.  Allowing them to mark and kill particular opponents in some way.

 

There is no real hybrid classing in DA. There hasn't really been. There has been some hybridizing of roles which they had gotten away from a bit in DAII.  There is some hybridizing of roles but that is not necessarily by mixing classes.  Mages tend always do things in a Magical Way. Warriors tend to always do things in a physical in your face way... rogues are always using misdirection/guile/utility things...

 

And there are really 4 roles to fill in DA not 3.

 

Tank

DPS (both melee and ranged)

Support

Healing

 

I don't list Crowd Control as one of the roles for a reason...  it's really something that enables a class to do one of two roles really.  Crowd Control is exhibited by most tank classes through agro and/or taunts to keep things attacking the tank.  And it can also be a support mechanic in the ability to lock down/direct enemies places.  It's also something that every class tends to have a little bit of. Whether we use it or not tends to be on us but we probably tend to pick up at least one CC style ability on every class whether it be the basic frost bolt of mages that's often one of the first spells picked up or say a pommel strike from the warrior as two examples.

 

Keep in mind also that all characters deal at least some damage however and can still overlap a bit into other areas without truly being a hybrid of roles.  There are a lot of ways you can accomplish each of these roles potentially amongst the three different classes for many unique characters.

 

From my personal point of view. A stealth/ninja mage would probably be either support or dps.  They aren't in your face enough to be something that tanks really. I could see them being a fair support/buffer while having "invisibility" to limit their own agro draw and danger in combat...   Though it's possible that they could be fairly good at moving about the battlefield(traditionally a mage weakness) while dealing damage and using the stealth aspect to limit their own agro pull or even dump it back onto the tank in a way similar to rogues stealthing to lose attackers or reposition in combat.  likely missing the rogues favor of backstab bonuses for the sheer nuking power of magic spells.

 

It helps to also keep in mind certain things.  like Support doesn't have to come only from "healer" types.   All three classes are potentially good at Support.  They tend to be something that boosts your party in many different ways. Warriors being more traditionally seen to do this through aura's/shouts/displays of physical prowess, and Rogues in both DA:O and DA:II are full of support affects as well. In DA:II there is at least one entire tree devoted to this idea. One being Sabotage as I recall which is heavy on debuffs and crowd control. The is more of these throughout the various other trees for the most part such as obscuring the entire group, modifying threat, and even stunning enemies in various ways.

[Treacherous J Slither]

^Great post. I agree with everything you've said.

 

Guess I should just focus on the mixing of classes as far as skills and specialisations and not combat roles. 

 

Like a blood mage assassin >:]

[Reptillius]

Blood Mages practically were assassins at times in DA:II.    But I can see what you mean. The debilitate and kill type of character.  Heavy in the single target.

 

I myself would love a barehand/gauntlet warrior or rogue that sees themselves as the weapon.  But then I've often liked Monks in different games.  Or characters that use clawed gauntlet type weapons in some of the Japanese video game titles.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Blood Mages practically were assassins at times in DA:II.    But I can see what you mean. The debilitate and kill type of character.  Heavy in the single target.

 

I myself would love a barehand/gauntlet warrior or rogue that sees themselves as the weapon.  But then I've often liked Monks in different games.  Or characters that use clawed gauntlet type weapons in some of the Japanese video game titles.

 

Dood...it's like you're in my mind.

[Myrc88]

It would be cool though if they had a more summony type character, like the ranger from DAO, I personally liked that skill quite a bit, maybe there could be a kind of cc type of this, summon mobs to keep other enemies occupied.

[Cyonan]

It would be cool though if they had a more summony type character, like the ranger from DAO, I personally liked that skill quite a bit, maybe there could be a kind of cc type of this, summon mobs to keep other enemies occupied.

 

They do have the Necromancer, which I have to imagine is going to use a lot of summons.

[PurpGuy1]

This is an oldie for sure, but in Anarchy Online I played a hybrid tank.  It was an Atrox Keeper, who was basically a meatshield DPS Knight with heavy armor and a 2 handed sword.  He didn't have any inherent threat-generating abilities (aside from a few items I'd acquired), but rather could hold aggro from a "midboss" mob while the main tank/rest of team focused on the main boss/smaller enemies.

 

For a practical example, suppose the Enforcer was tanking Hecklers, and a Horror jumped into the fight.  I would basically solo that Horror to keep pressure off the main tank.  I did so much damage that I was able to hold aggro, and was survivable enough that periodic offheals were enough to keep me going until the Hecklers were dealt with.  If the Horror had attacked the Enforcer, he probably wouldn't have survived the combined incoming damage.  Two full tanks would not have been as efficient damage output for our team, and be redundant.

 

Essentially, my hybrid tank was interchangable with a mezz/stun/calm/CC type of caster, except that a dedicated CC was more effective vs large groups of adds, whereas hybrid tank could salvage a situation if the main tank happened to go down.  Stealing agg from the main tank in raids was also hella fun.  50+ people ragetyping in caps at me that I'm gonna get us all killed, and then we win.  But it is a balancing act for sure, and it will take some time to explore what DAI classes can do before determining if it would be useful or effective in DAI.  With 4 person teams, hybrids could certainly have their uses.

 

For more recent citations, Ice Crown Citadel in WotLK had fights that required an offtank, Karagga's Palace in SWtoR was full of offtank/tank swap fights.  Eternity Vault had a few also. 

 

In PvP, hybrids have always been the ones to get the most whining/nerfing, if that goes to show how good they can be.  Anarchy Online Adventurers, WoW Shamans and Shockadins (Holy Shock Paladins), SWToR Operatives (and a handful of good Juggernauts) come to mind.