150 réponses à ce sujet

[Illyria God King of the Primordium]

I get the feeling more and more that Bioware didn't see DA2 as a failure. Or somehow, only looked at "Okay, people hated reused environments and combat speed so let's fix that and only that".

 

It's almost exactly like DA2 in a lot of respects, now with an additional ability limit so you can feel like even more of a moron because you didn't swap out X for Y before the fight. Hell, the weapon system and restrictions haven't changed one iota. Now we have even more arbitrary limits, and nothing says "player choice" and "emphasis on tactics" like taking away options and forcing you into one concrete role that can never, ever change.

Why would the role never, ever change?  I mean, perhaps each character's INDIVIDUAL role, but the great thing about the DA system is that while you can concretely build each character into rigid inflexible roles the party as a whole is pretty flexible.  

 

Let's say you build your inquisitor as a mage (because frankly that's where most of the controversy lies) speccing in debuff type spells - Horror, Misdirection Hex, Hex of Decrepitude, Walking Bomb, etc.  You'd use them completely differently though, despite their rigid build and lack of access to direct damage spells like Fireball and Winter's Grasp, if they were accompanied by a Rogue (who's fragile, and so you'd want to open with Horror for the Rogue to close without getting kited, then set up a Hex of Decrepitude so the Rogue's massive damage abilities will do the most damage), whereas with, say, a very tanky Aveline-type warrior you'd open with stuff to further improve their durability or damage ability (Misdirection followed by Decrepitude I'd go for, but there'd be an argument for opening with decrepitude).  This only multiplies with the more characters you take with you, and the more different ways you spec each character.  

 

I'm glad of this.  It means that we're unlikely to end up in situations where, such as in previous games, you'd have given a character similar abilities or skills to yourself and thus couldn't take them anywhere with you because of redundancy issues.  

[LexXxich]

By the end my main character had learned, i think, around 500 skills. The bar was limited to 8 skills. This did not hurt the game.

Because you had an actual choice of those hundreds of abilities. Because you could have them all in your backpack, and shuffle them in and out of your deck as you pleased.

DA systems work differently. Each class can only has ~25 abilities potentially unlockable. From those, only ~15 are actually unlockable by level cap. This is already a limiting mechanics. A mechanic that requires player making strategic choices that affect his/her tactical choices down the line. An additional UI restriction on number of abilities thus makes no mechanical sense. It appears to be a redundant mechanic that dilutes and mangles choices made at level-up.

[Eyeofanger]

Wow. Many threads here on the BSN start with: I'm worried.

[Hibernating]

From what we have seen from the skill trees leaked so far, there are more abilities in DAI than in DA2. I know off the top of my head for instance that there are 5 in the fire tree alone. Check out the skills and abilities forum discussion for more insight but you will have a lot of depth.

[LexXxich]

5 was the average number of resource consuming abilities per tree back in DA2. So no change here. But instead of 6 (8 with specs) trees characters now have access to 4 (5 with spec). So noticeable change here.

All of the above taken from that very thread.

[Hibernating]

5 was the average number of resource consuming abilities per tree back in DA2. So no change here. But instead of 6 (8 with specs) trees characters now have access to 4 (5 with spec). So noticeable change here.

All of the above taken from that very thread.

Well if I head over to the skill tree thread I can see 6 trees, 7 with spec and theres more abilities in them?

[Alodar]

No. If you have some added to Tactics, they won't work either, if not part of the 8 mapped abilities. The game will just skip unmapped abilities from your set Tactics, as well.

 

Abilities that exist in tactics but not mapped to the arbitrary 8 be skipped?

Has this been confirmed as to how tactics work?

[rupok93]

Wow. Many threads here on the BSN start with: I'm worried.

 

Can you blame people after the last 2 games? I been really excited for this game and then they drop this bombshell a month or 2 before the game launches. People are worried because of what bioware is right now, a former shell with so many people that left from the original team.

 

I personally cannot see how this decision of 8 abilities is a good one in a realtime pause rpg that already restricts your choices via level up system. Only action rpgs do this and even similar rpgs like baldurs gate had restrictions from hundreds of spells not just  20 or so, it didn't have a level system so it made sense.

 

So in this game you choose 8 abilities from the level bar and probably any more abilities that you choose are a waste of a point because you can't use all of them, so you might as well choose a few good abilities and then choose all passive abilities.

[nisallik]

Can you blame people after the last 2 games? I been really excited for this game and then they drop this bombshell a month or 2 before the game launches. People are worried because of what bioware is right now, a former shell with so many people that left from the original team.

 

I personally cannot see how this decision of 8 abilities is a good one in a realtime pause rpg that already restricts your choices via level up system. Only action rpgs do this and even similar rpgs like baldurs gate had restrictions from hundreds of spells not just  20 or so, it didn't have a level system so it made sense.

 

So in this game you choose 8 abilities from the level bar and probably any more abilities that you choose are a waste of a point because you can't use all of them, so you might as well choose a few good abilities and then choose all passive abilities.

 

Objection!

 

There is no waste, as players can easily swap before/after encounters or try a different tactic if they fail.

 

*sip*

[rupok93]

 

Objection!

 

There is no waste, as players can easily swap before/after encounters or try a different tactic if they fail.

 

*sip*

 

Hold it!

 

*slams desk

 

That requires too much trial and error, saving and reloading rather than on the fly strategy changes during combat. It also forces metagaming where most combinations of abilities are never used because they don't work well with other few abilities, theres probably gonna be 1 combination that is always the best because there aren't that many abilities to choose from in the first place. If you had access to all abilities you chose you could be more situational with tactics. Many people don't like that kind of limitation in a rpg like this. 

[nisallik]

Hold it!

 

*slams desk

 

That requires too much trial and error, saving and reloading rather than on the fly strategy changes during combat. It also forces metagaming where most combinations of abilities are never used because they don't work well with other few abilities, theres probably gonna be 1 combination that is always the best because there aren't that many abilities to choose from in the first place. If you had access to all abilities you chose you could be more situational with tactics. Many people don't like that kind of limitation in a rpg like this. 

 

But if they are going this route, I'm sure BioWare has taken clear actions to prevent this.  When do you believe a character will reach more than 8 active abilities knowing that a lot of previous active/concentration abilities have turned in to a passive?

 

There are 253 distinct types of bitterness in coffee. But to pick out each one requires total concentration and the use of all the senses.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I think this restriction is a bad idea. More options are always a good thing in my eyes. Taking options away is a terrible idea.

 

If my character has 20 skills then I want them to have access to these skills. To be stuck with whatever I button mapped sucks.

 

Dragons Dogma is an action game in a rpg setting that only gives you button mapped abilities to access. 6 at a time even though your character may know 20. 3 for your main weapon and 3 for your secondary. For the rogue type Strider class this was daggers and bow. The Strider is also able to run, dodge, and double jump. These evasive moves are necessary to avoid being killed and the weapons can be used effectively without using abilities. Unless DAI has a very similar combat system I fail to see how these new restrictions on skill access will be anything but frustrating.

 

Does anyone know if we can dodge, block, or jump in DAI? 

 

I was so hyped for this game but now i'm disappointed. No blood magic was the first bad news. Then no DW warrior. Then no character creator in multiplayer. Now this. 

Modifié par JSlither, 01 septembre 2014 - 04:39 .

[nisallik]

I think this restriction is a bad idea. More options are always a good thing in my eyes. Taking options away is a terrible idea.

 

If my character has 20 skills then I want them to have access to these skills. To be stuck with whatever I button mapped sucks.

 

Dragons Dogma is an action game in a rpg setting that only gives you button mapped abilities to access. 6 at a time even though your character may know 20. 3 for your main weapon and 3 for your secondary. For the rogue type Strider class this was daggers and bow. The Strider is also able to run, dodge, and double jump. These evasive moves are necessary to avoid being killed and the weapons can be used effectively without using abilities. Unless DAI has a very similar combat system I fail to see how these new restrictions on skill access will be anything but frustrating.

 

Does anyone know if we can dodge, block, or jump in DAI?

 

Yes, you can dodge during combat - even in isometric/paused view in which you can dictate where a character dodges.  Blocking will be tied to abilities/passive.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Yes, you can dodge during combat - even in isometric/paused view in which you can dictate where a character dodges.  Blocking will be tied to abilities/passive.

 

How exactly does one dodge? X button + any direction? Am I immune to damage during it? How fast and effective is it and how much ground does it cover?

 

Block being tied to abilities/passives sounds pretty bad.

[nisallik]

How exactly does one dodge? X button + any direction? Am I immune to damage during it? How fast and effective is it and how much ground does it cover?

 

Block being tied to abilities/passives sounds pretty bad.

 

It's a button to dodge, but will not be tied to any key assigned to active abilities.  It is supposedly very effective, as there are encounters where you will need to dodge enemies abilities.  I think the example I read is a giant holding his club up high and you can/should dodge out of the way.  In higher difficulties, the enemies attacks will speed up which will require you to quickly dodge out of the way.  

 

I actually haven't read anything about block, I just assume it will be tied to active abilites/passives similar to how previous Dragon Ages played out.

[Treacherous J Slither]

It's a button to dodge, but will not be tied to any key assigned to active abilities.  It is supposedly very effective, as there are encounters where you will need to dodge enemies abilities.  I think the example I read is a giant holding his club up high and you can/should dodge out of the way.  In higher difficulties, the enemies attacks will speed up which will require you to quickly dodge out of the way.  

 

I actually haven't read anything about block, I just assume it will be tied to active abilites/passives similar to how previous Dragon Ages played out.

 

It may be that the dodge is only accessible when the enemy does a particular move. Like a quick time event or something like it. I hope this isn't the case.

[nisallik]

It may be that the dodge is only accessible when the enemy does a particular move. Like a quick time event or something like it. I hope this isn't the case.

 

I extremely doubt that BioWare will start doing QTE.  There will be a key/button to press to initiate dodging.

[DarthLaxian]

I extremely doubt that BioWare will start doing QTE.  There will be a key/button to press to initiate dodging.

 

Don't be so sure about that *mass effect I am looking at you*

 

greetings LAX

[goofyomnivore]

I went through DA:2 using 8-10 abilities while the rest being passives/sustained skills, and I didn't really mind it or notice it all. I enjoy having lots of options like in DA:O, but to be honest many of the skills in DA:O I used once and forgot about, or were just inferior to other skills and not worth using anymore. So I would say in DA:O I even stayed in the 8-12 range. Maybe in DA:A I used more briefly, because honestly all the DA:A skills were overpowered and I just didn't use them to keep the game fun still.

[In Exile]

It makes it possible to create more unique mages, though. For roleplaying reasons.

You can create a gimped mage in DAI too. No game prevents terrible builds.

[In Exile]

But if they are going this route, I'm sure BioWare has taken clear actions to prevent this. When do you believe a character will reach more than 8 active abilities knowing that a lot of previous active/concentration abilities have turned in to a passive?

There are 253 distinct types of bitterness in coffee. But to pick out each one requires total concentration and the use of all the senses.

Bioware is bad at balancing their combat. I highly doubt they avoided this issue.

[Sasie]

8x4 is not tactical at all. I'm personally beginning to doubt the tactical camera or pausing will be more then a situational thing used to make sure a character get healed on time. I ranted about this a bit in another thread but in Baldur's gate 2 for example eight spells would barely cover the useful debuff/buff spells and there is still summons and several different damage abilities to count in after that. 

Eight abilities more or less ensures we can never have the those spells or abilities in hand that might be good if this or that situation comes up in a fight without knowing beforehand that it will be needed. It's even possible there won't even be such abilities to begin with what would be even worse.

I'm playing Original Sin co-op with a friend when we both have time over the last few weeks and both my characters there has three full action bars and I still want more abilities to cover different situations. Being limited to eight abilities chosen before a fight is nothing unless we can go into every fight knowing exactly what we will face and what is the fun in that?

[Lebanese Dude]

DAI is a new game that none of us have played.

DAI has a new combat system.

DAI has a new ability tree system.

Hence, none of us are remotely qualified to make a judgement on how limiting this new system is.
Speculate all you want but please don't state your assumptions as objective truth.

I personally think that since the Inquisition is focused on organized planning and decision making, compared to the last two DA games, the game won't be as limiting as some may think.

A good and likely scenario is that all the different major categories are introduced in the early stages of the game to provide us with relevant dossiers that we can use to plan our hot key selections, with the occasional wild card.