4203 réponses à ce sujet

[OracleofWar]

No, real life statistics don't matter in the game, that's what I meant. It's a game, it's not indicative of real life. But it also is limited by game constraints, so cannot also represent real life genders and sexuality in their whole, because they are so many and so varied. I wasn't saying groups shouldn't be represented equally, only that more than one group will always feel under represented because the game can't represent them all, but in terms of who the game does represent, the split in this game is more equal than real life, there are at least two choices for straight and gay, male and female, which shouldn't be forgotten amongst all the 'that small percentage of gamers got an extra romance it's not representative or equal'.

[Deviija]

Actually, I'd sign-up to that service 

 

 

Making an account right now.  

[BraveVesperia]

The point isn't to replicate real world estimates of LGB percentages. We can't even reliably guess what that is. The point is to offer LGB players and those that just enjoy LGB content an equal shot at enjoying the romance feature.

 

The LGB content is not even something just LGB people use. I've seen straight men and women say on the forums that they enjoy the LGB content, sometimes even exclusively choosing same-sex relationships. I've seen straight posters actually say the LGB content in Bioware's games actually changed the way they viewed gay issues in the real world, for the better.

 

The LGB content is extremely important, this is something that joining the BSN and hearing user stories has really convinced me of. There's little else in the games that can have such an impact on people's lives. After hearing stories from straight people saying that Bioware helped them accept LGB people, or that LGB people were able to explore their sexuality in that safe way and accept themselves, I can't brush it off as just "a small, unimportant part of the game". It's a part of the game that's had major impact on people's real lives and I think people don't understand and marginalize that.

Excellent post! I can certainly agree with this. Honestly, it wasn't until first being introduced to characters like Liara, Zevran and Leliana that I even realised bisexuality was a  valid orientation. I was so used to narrow-minded people telling me that straight was the correct way to and and 'gay is evil', I wasn't ever going to discuss with them. TV was no use with its portrayal of bi people as either confused or greedy. And bi women were usually just for the idiotic 'straight guys love threesomes lesbians' stereotype.

 

It wasn't until Bioware that I saw a positive and open portrayal and actually realised that it was a valid way to be.

 

Not only that, but my 'one of the lads' brother has also really enjoyed playing m/m romances (sometimes more than the m/f ones, though I think that aspect's more to do with his poor attitude towards women). I'd definitely say the romances improved his attitude and view of gay and bi people.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Excellent post! I can certainly agree with this. Honestly, it wasn't until first being introduced to characters like Liara, Zevran and Leliana that I even realised bisexuality was a  valid orientation. I was so used to narrow-minded people telling me that straight was the correct way to and and 'gay is evil', I wasn't ever going to discuss with them. TV was no use with its portrayal of bi people as either confused or greedy. And bi women were usually just for the idiotic 'straight guys love threesomes lesbians' stereotype.

 

It wasn't until Bioware that I saw a positive and open portrayal and actually realised that it was a valid way to be.

 

Not only that, but my 'one of the lads' brother has also really enjoyed playing m/m romances (sometimes more than the m/f ones, though I think that aspect's more to do with his poor attitude towards women). I'd definitely say the romances improved his attitude and view of gay and bi people.

Thank you for posting your personal experience here. Stories like this are really important to give people perspective on what this content does for people in the real world. It's something that's largely overlooked in these discussions, so it's great to have first hand accounts given. 

 

And I'm very happy for you that you were able to find examples somewhere that helped you accept yourself. 

[daveliam]

So this talk about asexual and demisexual representation made me wonder:

 

Don't demisexuals and asexuals have another sexual orientation as well?  Like, couldn't you be demisexual and only interested in opposite sex partners?  Or asexual and only interested in same sex partners?

 

If so, then this particular aspect of their sexuality would still need representation (being demi- or a-), but they are still getting representation with the straight, bisexual, or gay romances in some capacity, right?

 

I'm just not familiar enough with these sexualities so it would be helpful if someone who understands them better could explain it to me.  We can do it off-board in a PM if you don't want to derail the thread.

[OracleofWar]

Okay, except DA:I isn't real life. There's no reason to adhere to the constraints of real life statistical sexuality. I'm not going to get into how that's flawed in and of itself, but yeah. This is a video game, and a fantasy one at that. We play video games to escape our own lives for a little while.

*sigh* And that wasn't the main premise of my post or that I was saying that is what Bioware should work to mirror, and in fact I was trying to say because the world is so varied and so unequally split (I was not talking just LGB either), Bioware has hardly the budget or ability to represent everyone of every group, but that the representation they currently show in game is actually pretty equal considering how many people are claiming it isn't.

[Ray561]

So this talk about asexual and demisexual representation made me wonder:

 

Don't demisexuals and asexuals have another sexual orientation as well?  Like, couldn't you be demisexual and only interested in opposite sex partners?  Or asexual and only interested in same sex partners?

 

If so, then this particular aspect of their sexuality would still need representation (being demi- or a-), but they are still getting representation with the straight, bisexual, or gay romances in some capacity, right?

 

I'm just not familiar enough with these sexualities so it would be helpful if someone who understands them better could explain it to me.  We can do it off-board in a PM if you don't want to derail the thread.

Yes there are terms for Demi-heterosexual and Demi-homosexual.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

So this talk about asexual and demisexual representation made me wonder:

 

Don't demisexuals and asexuals have another sexual orientation as well?  Like, couldn't you be demisexual and only interested in opposite sex partners?  Or asexual and only interested in same sex partners?

 

If so, then this particular aspect of their sexuality would still need representation (being demi- or a-), but they are still getting representation with the straight, bisexual, or gay romances in some capacity, right?

 

I'm just not familiar enough with these sexualities so it would be helpful if someone who understands them better could explain it to me.  We can do it off-board in a PM if you don't want to derail the thread.

Demisexuals and asexuals do further have specific gender interests. It's.. sort of like a qualifier in additions to a sexuality, except it's not really a "sexuality" with asexuals. So, they typically say biromantic, homoromantic, etc. 

[daveliam]

*sigh* And that wasn't the main premise of my post or that I was saying that is what Bioware should work to mirror, and in fact I was trying to say because the world is so varied and so unequally split (I was not talking just LGB either), Bioware has hardly the budget or ability to represent everyone of every group, but that the representation they currently show in game is actually pretty equal considering how many people are claiming it isn't.

 

Yes, the representation in this game is "pretty equal".  But there are two things that are still a concerns:

 

1.)  "Pretty equal" =/= actually equal.  Which in and of itself is not a bad thing except that, once again, it's guaranteed that gay men and/or gay women will get the least amount of options.  Either it's Vivienne and gay women might get one more option or it's Blackwall and gay men might get one more option.  There's no way that gay people won't have the least amount of options again.

 

2.)  Most of the people who are annoyed by this are not just looking at DA: I in a vacuum.  They are looking historically where, if Vivienne is a straight female option, gay men will be getting the least amount of options for the ELEVENTH game in a row (out of 11) and gay women will be getting the least amount of options for the EIGHTH time out of 11.  Conversely, if the last one is Blackwall and straight guys get the least amount of options it would only be the SECOND time in 11 games that this happened. 

 

I think most of us want equal options because:  1.)  we know how crappy it feels to get the least options; and 2.)  we know that when they don't make a concerted effort to make it equal, it's almost guaranteed that gay people will get least options.  If I could feel confident that in ME 4, gay men wouldn't get the least options, then I'd be fine.  But, what is more likely, we'll get two options and everyone else will get three (or four) and we'll be told to just be happy with representation.....again.

[Khaeix]

My God x.x there are so many sexualities I had no idea about! Boggles my brain.

But that isn't the point of the thread    I would love for Blackwall to be romanceable    

[Ceoldoren]

My God x.x there are so many sexualities I had no idea about! Boggles my brain.

But that isn't the point of the thread    I would love for Blackwall to be romanceable    

I hear that !

[daveliam]

Yes there are terms for Demi-heterosexual and Demi-homosexual.

Demisexuals and asexuals do further have specific gender interests. It's.. sort of like a qualifier in additions to a sexuality, except it's not really a "sexuality" with asexuals. So, they typically say biromantic, homoromantic, etc. 

 

 

This is helpful to me.  Thanks for the responses.  So then wouldn't a demi-heterosexual still see representation in some capacity with the straight romances?  I'm not saying this to dismiss the idea of including demisexuality.  I'm just trying to understand why some have claimed that they have had NO representation.  Do they just mean no specific demisexual representation?  The same with asexuality?  I'm just curious.

[Pierce Miller]

Personally I'd find it quite strange if Blackwall is romanceable 

[WildOrchid]

My God x.x there are so many sexualities I had no idea about! Boggles my brain.

But that isn't the point of the thread    I would love for Blackwall to be romanceable    

 

Yeah, humans are complicated like that apparently.

 

 

 

 

So any news yet? No?

[Tytelr]

Yeah, humans are complicated like that apparently.




So any news yet? No?

No. 3:

[Ray561]

This is helpful to me.  Thanks for the responses.  So then wouldn't a demi-heterosexual still see representation in some capacity with the straight romances?  I'm not saying this to dismiss the idea of including demisexuality.  I'm just trying to understand why some have claimed that they have had NO representation.  Do they just mean no specific demisexual representation?  The same with asexuality?  I'm just curious.

well I can't answer this but I think it is more to do with having no representation at all instead to having options to choose.

[Ianamus]

So this talk about asexual and demisexual representation made me wonder:

 

Don't demisexuals and asexuals have another sexual orientation as well?  Like, couldn't you be demisexual and only interested in opposite sex partners?  Or asexual and only interested in same sex partners?

 

If so, then this particular aspect of their sexuality would still need representation (being demi- or a-), but they are still getting representation with the straight, bisexual, or gay romances in some capacity, right?

 

I'm just not familiar enough with these sexualities so it would be helpful if someone who understands them better could explain it to me.  We can do it off-board in a PM if you don't want to derail the thread.

 

I think it's also possible to be sexually attracted to some types of people and demi-sexually "attracted" to other types of people.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

This is helpful to me.  Thanks for the responses.  So then wouldn't a demi-heterosexual still see representation in some capacity with the straight romances?  I'm not saying this to dismiss the idea of including demisexuality.  I'm just trying to understand why some have claimed that they have had NO representation.  Do they just mean no specific demisexual representation?  The same with asexuality?  I'm just curious.

With asexuals, I believe it's probably more pronounced, since their character is basically always assumed to have sexual attraction and to have sex with their LI. At least that's always implied, I believe. A demisexual would be able to at least roleplay their own character as demisexual, it would seem to me. As far as how much they see the sexualities we have as representative to them, I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking for them. We had a poster earlier who basically said they felt the same-sex LIs represented them, despite being asexual. I can't say how that would work on an individual basis.  

[daveliam]

With asexuals, I believe it's probably more pronounced, since their character is basically always assumed to have sexual attraction and to have sex with their LI. At least that's always implied, I believe. A demisexual would be able to at least roleplay their own character as demisexual, it would seem to me. As far as how much they see the sexualities we have as representative to them, I wouldn't feel comfortable speaking for them. We had a poster earlier who basically said they felt the same-sex LIs represented them, despite being asexual. I can't say how that would work on an individual basis.  

 

Yes, this kind of makes sense to me.  I can see the issue with asexual representation since there's been a fade-to-black in every romance except for Sebastian's and, if my understanding of his romance is accurate, it's still not asexual, it's just chaste. 

 

It also make sense for the demisexuality, given that my understanding of demisexuality is that a person only becomes sexually attracted after they are romantically attracted, so I can see how this could be role-played in most of the romances.

 

Okay, thanks to all who clarified some of this for me.  I want to make sure that if I'm speaking on a topic, I'm well informed enough to not say something rude or insensitive.

[Tamyn]

IIRC David said that some of the romances didn't require sex to progress. I'm guessing that's the minority of them though.

[OracleofWar]

Yes, the representation in this game is "pretty equal". But there are two things that are still a concerns:

1.) "Pretty equal" =/= actually equal. Which in and of itself is not a bad thing except that, once again, it's guaranteed that gay men and/or gay women will get the least amount of options. Either it's Vivienne and gay women might get one more option or it's Blackwall and gay men might get one more option. There's no way that gay people won't have the least amount of options again.

2.) Most of the people who are annoyed by this are not just looking at DA: I in a vacuum. They are looking historically where, if Vivienne is a straight female option, gay men will be getting the least amount of options for the ELEVENTH game in a row (out of 11) and gay women will be getting the least amount of options for the EIGHTH time out of 11. Conversely, if the last one is Blackwall and straight guys get the least amount of options it would only be the SECOND time in 11 games that this happened.

I think most of us want equal options because: 1.) we know how crappy it feels to get the least options; and 2.) we know that when they don't make a concerted effort to make it equal, it's almost guaranteed that gay people will get least options. If I could feel confident that in ME 4, gay men wouldn't get the least options, then I'd be fine. But, what is more likely, we'll get two options and everyone else will get three (or four) and we'll be told to just be happy with representation.....again.

In terms of equality I meant right now, not knowing who is the last LI, because we don't know who it is or the constraints of romance-ability put on them or someone else by gating.
Even if it is a bi Blackwall (which I hope for) it could mean Cullen is gated for all but human, or Blackwall only likes dwarves (just no reason, but Bioware have been surprising us lately). So in numbers that gives hetero females 4 and gay males 3, but when it comes to a game, it doesn't, especially if, like the majority of gamers, you play one game as one race, it could only be two choices, just like everyone else. In fact, if IB was still gated it could end up really unfair or both hetero females and gay males if they played as a dwarf (even though game statistics and commentary on this BSN have shown that race choice is the smallest).
And if it's a bi Vivienne as the final LI, and gated for just humans for example, on the one playthrough the majority of people, gay, straight, bi play, straight males and lesbians could have only two choices dependant on race too.
It is doubtful right now, even straight males, could play as whatever they decided and have all choices open to them.

I'd say that if Dorian and Sera are not race gated (which I don't think they will be), that means their romances, just like IB and Josephine who are confirmed ungated, are more equal being open to all races and playthroughs (obviously dependant on gender for Dorian and Sera) than the straight romances who could have the gates on, just like Solas already has.

[daveliam]

In terms of equality I meant right now, not knowing who is the last LI, because we don't know who it is or the constraints of romance-ability put on them or someone else by gating.
Even if it is a bi Blackwall (which I hope for) it could mean Cullen is gated for all but human, or Blackwall only likes dwarves (just no reason, but Bioware have been surprising us lately). So in numbers that gives hetero females 4 and gay males 3, but when it comes to a game, it doesn't, especially if, like the majority of gamers, you play one game as one race, it could only be two choices, just like everyone else. In fact, if IB was still gated it could end up really unfair or both hetero females and gay males if they played as a dwarf (even though game statistics and commentary on this BSN have shown that race choice is the smallest).
And if it's a bi Vivienne as the final LI, and gated for just humans for example, on the one playthrough the majority of people, gay, straight, bi play, straight males and lesbians could have only two choices dependant on race too.
It is doubtful right now, even straight males, could play as whatever they decided and have all choices open to them.

I'd say that if Dorian and Sera are not race gated (which I don't think they will be), that means their romances, just like IB and Josephine who are confirmed ungated, are more equal being open to all races and playthroughs (obviously dependant on gender for Dorian and Sera) than the straight romances who could have the gates on, just like Solas already has.

I'm not following your logic here. EVERYONE will have two ungated options, regardless of who the last LI is. Plus, some groups are going to get a third (and maybe fourth is Blackwall is the last Li and either straight or bi) race-gated option.

[Ianamus]

Given that straight people consume the LGBT content, I disagree with the notion that if our game happened to have more gay romances than not, that the game would be any more "catered towards gay people" than any other game.  This is a slippery slope that would be equivalent to alleging that a game that happens to have a gay protagonist is being made for gay people and not straight people.

 

If straight people feel that a game isn't "for them" because of something like this, then it just reinforces to me that it's a problem and continues needing addressing.  Until people stop caring, that is the case.

 

This is why I was more specific in my later posts and clarified it as not being aimed more at an LGBT audience, but being aimed more at people who enjoy interactive s/s romance content. I admit It's an important distinction, because there are a lot of straight people who are interested in interactive s/s romance content as well as LGBT people who aren't at all interested in interactive s/s romance content.

 

I just think that it's a lose/lose situation for Bioware, because if they do include more s/s LI's than straight LI's then they would get concerns about why they are including more same gender romance content than straight romance content in a game that's supposed to be aimed at everyone, and even if they have completely equal LI numbers in every game from now the gay male players will still have had the least options overall, and will still always have "Always had the least or joint least", as some have put it. Unless games specifically aimed at people enjoy s/s romance content come out and even out the overall numbers (either from Bioware or another studio).

 

Not that there's really a win for Bioware here, and what they are doing at the moment is probably the best they realistically can.

 

I don't think it's a slippery slope, because I draw a thick line between optional s/s romance content and other content that includes LGBT characters. Having gay characters like Dorian or Sera, or a gay protagonist in a game where he rescues a prince instead of a princess are things that everyone can enjoy whether or not the have a strong fondness for same gender romance.

 

But s/s LI's are different because instead of just watching two people of the same gender in a relationship the player has to actually take on the role of one of those people and often has to initiate the kisses, flirting and sex themselves. This would only appeal to people who specifically like same gender romance due to it's interactive nature, wheras gay protagonists, characters and even romantic movies featuring same gender couples have more widespread appeal.

 

And for other people: I'm just clarifying my thoughts to Allan since he commented on my post. Please don't start another arguement over this, or at least take it to PM with me if you absolutely have to. 

[Pierce Miller]

The problem at the end of the day is that everyone wants as many options as they can possibly have, therefore they want their orientation to have the most representation. Which means someone has to be underrepresented sadly.