4203 réponses à ce sujet

[vutha_ixen]

OMG, I finally caught up with you guy! I've been reading your posts for around 2 hours now (kinda glossed over the last few pages). First off, this is an amazing and diverse thread. People of all orientations and genders are represented here, and I love it! I almost never post, but this thread was so awesome I can't help but put my two cents in as I feel that my opinions will be heard and not judged here.

I have to say I'm highly satisfied, mostly because I never had a problem playing as any gender in any game. I would like to point out that until they had the extra year they had a completely even caste of romances. At that point they had their cast of characters. They had already gone over why they couldn't be romanced for story reasons, so once the time was extended they could look at the characters and say "now that elf is an option, can we make Solas romancable?". Then they did what they could in the time they could do it in. The Dwarf Cullen romance was probably a not enough time for animations problem, and his no Qunari problem could be explained by his pressence in Kirkwall during the invasion. I mean look how long it took him to get past his "I hate mages" problem. Maybe in a few more years he will be able to love the Qunari. I bleed for the Viv lovers out there, but she always came off as all business to me so I wasn't suprised. Nothing but respect for her wishes to not settle 'till she reaches the top by her own power and intellegance.
This might get me some hate, but I don't see how Cass is butch... Looking at her slender face with excentuated cheek bones and large lips I see all woman! I can't tell if her full body is masculine because of the armor. She could be a typical super model under that heavy stuff (though I really hope for a realistic quantity of muscle). The only thing that looks butch is her hair, and that is short for practicle reasons. I've been in armor, and if you have long hair it has to be tied back and you have to use a coif, which is thick fabric, so it gets hot and nasty in your helm. Short hair is a good choice for a knight! Aveline was solidly butch (man I wish I could have romanced her with my follow the law Hawke)!

Lastly I think that the new character creator could solve the problems everyone is having (emphasis on the word could). You may be able to make a male who is so femanin that he could pass as she. With some imagination you can get what looks like a female romancing Cass. No this isn't an ideal solution, but it might take the edge off of your male playthrough.

Sorry for all the spelling mistakes, it is late, I have never posted before, and I can't find the spell check here!

[devSin]

I can't see Zevran as effeminate at all and I don't understand how others do. I don't know where it comes from at all. Is it because elves are small? I don't even get it.

He's small of stature, he's soft spoken, and he's portrayed as wily. While not exactly effeminate (and I probably should have qualified that word when I used it), he's definitely not overtly masculine (I don't think?).

I'd guess it's not so much about femininity as it is about being the shifty promiscuous rogue, as opposed to the virtuous warrior or the stoic giant or the stinky dwarf.

The shifty guy is the queer, because who else would it be?

At least, I imagine that could be some of the criticism; I never much paid attention to it or cared about it, and I always thought Zevran came across fine. But I do know there are gay people who really took issue with it (and I've seen some gay people who seem to not be so enamored of Dorian as well, though I haven't been paying attention to whatever issues they have with him so far), so it's not just a case of straight people applying these labels to denigrate the characters.

[SofaJockey]

I've never felt older than when posters here tell me that I've been playing video games longer than they have been alive.

 

Ha. My daughters tell me I've been playing video games longer than they have been alive (and they would be right)

(they play DA it too by the way)

 

A few decades can soften the edges and makes you appreciate what you like in a game (and in life) and not focus on what's disappointing or that you hate.

 

EDIT:

 

Last time they did a survey, the average age was 20-25. There are definitely people in the 30-50 range as well though.

 

And more... (cough)

[karushna5]

Understood, but then the big messy thing called LGBT politics comes up and well, we all know we are not magically free of our own prejudice. The L word was gushed by a lesbian for having beautiful, sexy women instead of sexless wonders and was a good show precisely because there were no Butch lesbians to deal with.

I know bisexual people suffer from all sort of backlash from gay/lesbians. Trans people have it worst of all with additional stuff from LGB groups than they get from just straight cis people.

[Willowhugger]

 

He's small of stature, he's soft spoken, and he's portrayed as wily. While not exactly effeminate (and I probably should have qualified that word when I used it), he's definitely not overtly masculine (I don't think?).

 

It depends on where you're located.

In Europe and Latin American countries, smooth-talking rogues are one of the archetypes of manliness.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

He's small of stature, he's soft spoken, and he's portrayed as wily. While not exactly effeminate (and I probably should have qualified that word when I used it), he's definitely not overtly masculine (I don't think?).

I'd guess it's not so much about femininity as it is about being the shifty promiscuous rogue, as opposed to the virtuous warrior or the stoic giant or the stinky dwarf.

The shifty guy is the queer, because who else would it be?

At least, I imagine that could be some of the criticism; I never much paid attention to it or cared about it, and I always thought Zevran came across fine. But I do know there are gay people who really took issue with it (and I've seen some gay people who seem to not be so enamored of Dorian as well, though I haven't been paying attention to whatever issues they have with him so far), so it's not just a case of straight people applying these labels to denigrate the characters.

That I understand. He's a promiscuous bisexual trope, like I've talked about. He could just as easily be the "womanizing European guy" and nothing would need to change about his characterization, except not sleeping with guys. He's got a personality that's not rare to see in straight men in media, which is why I never really understand when people call him effeminate. I totally understand shifty/rogue like/promiscuous as the issue, though.

[devSin]

I'm probably doing a huge disservice to whatever arguments these individuals have against Zevran; like I said, I never paid much attention and wasn't personally bothered, so it's all an attempt to deduce where their issues may have come from.

Though, I imagine some of the confusion here was equally represented in whatever case they were trying to make against the character, so maybe this is more of a reenactment.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

As for people saying, "just make a male/female character that looks female/male", because I've seen this a handful of times, personally, I could just never do this. I would know, for one thing. It just wouldn't ever not be a hetero romance, in my mind. I also can't see characters as a different sexuality than their creators make them. If their writer says they're straight, then they're straight. That's who they are. But that's just me.

[Maria Caliban]

I could never do this because the game has strong sexual dimorphism.

The men look quite large compared to the women. And it's not like I can shrink my character's bust.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

On the stereotypes conversation;

 

I think what people need to do when it comes to whether a character is "too stereotypical" is really think about what that means and whether there are biases they've got that are coloring their judgment. Sometimes people have unrealistic ideals of what a man or a woman has to be, even inside the LGBT community. Just because someone in the community thinks a man is too feminine or a women is too masculine doesn't mean it might not be less so that the character is offensive and more so that their own views of gender roles are unhealthy. People of all demographics can have views that are, in themselves, offensive and not necessarily something that should be perpetuated.     

[Willowhugger]

As for people saying, "just make a male/female character that looks female/male", because I've seen this a handful of times, personally, I could just never do this. I would know, for one thing. It just wouldn't ever not be a hetero romance, in my mind. I also can't see characters as a different sexuality than their creators make them. If their writer says they're straight, then they're straight. That's who they are. But that's just me.

 

It's a pretty damn weird suggestion.

 

This is why Mods exist, though, and PC versions of games.

Even if I will NEVER ABANDON MY CONSOLE!

NEVER!

[carlo angelo]

It's a pretty damn weird suggestion.

 

This is why Mods exist, though, and PC versions of games.

Even if I will NEVER ABANDON MY CONSOLE!

NEVER!

I, too, shall forever be a console-peasant.

 

Though, I do play games on the PC, it'll depend on the game. Just not games like Dragon Age.

[vutha_ixen]

As for people saying, "just make a male/female character that looks female/male", because I've seen this a handful of times, personally, I could just never do this. I would know, for one thing. It just wouldn't ever not be a hetero romance, in my mind. I also can't see characters as a different sexuality than their creators make them. If their writer says they're straight, then they're straight. That's who they are. But that's just me.

 

I apologize if it seemed like I thought this was a perfect solution, and I know that it won't work for most people. I did however state that it was merely a way to take the edge off as I recognize that the character models differ dramatically. However in previous games most dialogue is done as close up shots on the face. So you can have touching moments with a character that, though differing in gender, still resembles the idealistic or realistic image of your face (or the face you wish to see) you have created. Perfect, hell no! Good enough is all that I shoot for with that, and opinions of whether or not it works will varry from person to person (especially since we don't yet know what the character creator is capable of).

I am not trying to change your mind, just clarifying that I meant no offense, and apologize if I did so.

[SofaJockey]

I just wish Bioware would stop refusing to offer equal options to everyone.   

 

I agree with you (now) Nocte, on the principle, I really do,

I guess my reading of it is just more optimistic as to why it's not about 'refusing':

 

Sorry it's not a short analysis...

 

At the design stage in 2011 the characters were developed, and maybe there were a couple more who fell by the way,

but the LI budget was clearly for 6 Love Interests: 2/2/2. (Cass/Blackwall/Josie/Iron Bull/Sera/Dorian)

 

In the summer of 2013 the game was delayed by a year to add more content.

That covered lots of things, bigger game space, Qunari, Elf & Dwarf playble races added, probably more work on multiplayer, etc.

And the option (and time) to add more romances if possible.

 

Now at this point the game has been in development over 2 years, so we're not dealing with

creating new characters, this is about working with what there is.

 

So of the 6 others:

• Leliana - past romance, good reason to exclude for story reasons
• Varric - likely story reason why not
• Cole - clear story reason why not

So it could only be 2 of:

• Vivienne - 
• Cullen -
• Solas - 

(and no, you can't have 9 romances, there is a rule about not having more than 8 of something (gag for the PC-UI lobby )  )

 

If from a story perspective, those characters are straight, then they are, that's how they were written.

We don't know the details of Viv's story which may provide clear story reason why not.

 

So why two more straight relationships? Because the only available characters were straight.

 

So why not just give the 6 so it's 'fair'? Because the opportunity to add 'extra' arose and BioWare took it.

They could have changed the story to make Solas and Cullen Bi, but that would not have been authentic, be and a cop out and complex.

Additional LIs are not cheap - by 'limiting' their LI story to story compatible races makes a significant saving in VA work/costs.

 

I think part of the unease on the part of BioWare over the LI reveals is that what has happened is logical from a two-stage development process point of view, because the game changed (grew) in the summer of 2013. The original DAI budget from 2011 was pre-Mass Effect 3 so the imperative to knock the game out of the park this time was not as much there as it was after the reception to the ME3 endings. But explaining that convincingly is tricky to do. 'It would have been equal but it changed' is essentially the message.

 

If they had developed the game from the start with the final number of LIs then I think it is much more likely that things would have been balanced. (might want to make some of these points in the Feedback thread because I'm sure DA4 is already in development).

 

Finally on gating Iron Bull. I read that it had been a technical gate not a story gate.

 

 Iron Bull was never intended to have been gated, because the additional races were agreed to be added at the time of the one-year delay. In the original 2/2/2 combinations, Iron Bull was not race gated because the Inquisitor could only be human.

 

The additional content caused the gating issue, over how to animate sexy time with Dwarves and Elves. The 2013 additional development caused the Iron Bull technical gating problem which John Epler has wonderfully addressed.

 

Oh, and the story reason why Solas only likes female elves would be another reason why Solas was not originally a LI, because in the original design, as noted before, the Inquisitor could only be a human.

 

In short (eventually), the plan from the start was for balance without any gating.

The content addition in summer 2013 allowed two extra options who could only be what they are.

 

I don't think the devs and writers deserve hate on this basis and complaining about groups being screwed over is particularly ungenerous. (That comment is not getting at your commentary Nocte, much of what you have said has been well articulated)

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Like I said to Allan in the stickied thread, why not put those resources into friendship content instead of making more romances? If they have extra resources, it could be used in a way that everyone could benefit from. Instead of using it for two romances that a select few people have access to, they could have used it for friendship content that everyone would have access to. To me, this seems like the best solution for everyone. 

[ladyofpayne]

Why guys have so much pain? In DAo there was 2 girls, in DA - 2 and in DAI you have 2. Nothing is changed.

[Ynqve]

Why guys have so much pain? In DAo there was 2 girls, in DA - 2 and in DAI you have 2. Nothing is changed.

 

I think it has more to do with the fact that some of us were hoping that the number of options would be equal for everyone. But now we straight females have access to half of the romances while the rest only have 2. It's like in ME3, where straight males had a lot of extra options and the rest of us had fewer. Sure, some were happy with their options (Garrus  ) but it still sucked that one group had so many extra options. Let's just hope things get better in the future!

 

Edit: realized that I misinterpreted your post. But I guess some are upset over what I wrote, some are upset because they aren't used to having fewer options and some really wanted Viv to be the last romance. 

[The Elder King]

Why guys have so much pain? In DAo there was 2 girls, in DA - 2 and in DAI you have 2. Nothing is changed.

They (those straight males who are disappointed) are disappointed that straight females got more options. Or they're disappointed because they don't like one/both romance options. Or they wanted romance options to be equal.
The same goes for lesbians and gays (more for the first and third reason then the second, though I saw one complaining about getting Sera).
I'm straight and I'm REALLY fine with Cass and Josie (plus, I can roleplay other PC with different gender and sexualities). The only think I'm annoyed about is that most male homosexuals might've got only one options if it wasn't for Mr.Epler.

[Ianamus]

Like I said to Allan in the stickied thread, why not put those resources into friendship content instead of making more romances? If they have extra resources, it could be used in a way that everyone could benefit from. Instead of using it for two romances that a select few people have access to, they could have used it for friendship content that everyone would have access to. To me, this seems like the best solution for everyone. 

 

Their friendships paths were most likely completely written by that stage. Throwing more time and money at something that is complete or practically complete doesn't just automatically make it "better".

[vutha_ixen]

Like I said to Allan in the stickied thread, why not put those resources into friendship content instead of making more romances? If they have extra resources, it could be used in a way that everyone could benefit from. Instead of using it for two romances that a select few people have access to, they could have used it for friendship content that everyone would have access to. To me, this seems like the best solution for everyone. 

It would be best for everyone except the ones that want to romance Solas, and the droves of people out there who want to romance Cullen.

Besides they would have had to go back and re-record the voice acting and make up some other excuse for this to be a just friends relationship. Why no just keep the old recordings and make an awesome new arc for those who choose to be his type. It is a more simple process.

I know it is easier to see how green the grass is on that side of the fence, but look down. Everyone has at least two option that aren't phoned in or a cop out! That is huge! Almost no other game will give you that many options. I'm sure that bioware will keep your opinions in mind when the next game rolls out. Hopefully this scenario of the game changing because of delays won't happen either so the devs don't have to make the hard choice of adding things for a small crowd or changing a character to make everyone happy. Perhaps EA will finally see that quality RPGs take time to make and just give Bioware the time from the get go. That way they can build the balance you seek into the game.

 

P.S.Sofajokey, you are my hero. I couldn't have said it better if I put all my effort into it!

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Their friendships paths were most likely completely written by that stage. Throwing more time and money at something that is complete or practically complete doesn't just automatically make it "better".

It's not that hard to add in extra scenes of communication in comparison to adding a romance. I've never played a Bioware game that couldn't benefit from more friendship content and I don't believe this one wouldn't, either. Allan didn't say in the thread that there was any particular impracticalities. He just said the content would likely go into developing the individual character and not other romances.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It would be best for everyone except the ones that want to romance Solas, and the droves of people out there who want to romance Cullen.

Besides they would have had to go back and re-record the voice acting and make up some other excuse for this to be a just friends relationship. Why no just keep the old recordings and make an awesome new arc for those who choose to be his type. It is a more simple process.

I know it is easier to see how green the grass is on that side of the fence, but look down. Everyone has at least two option that aren't phoned in or a cop out! That is huge! Almost no other game will give you that many options. I'm sure that bioware will keep your opinions in mind when the next game rolls out. Hopefully this scenario of the game changing because of delays won't happen either so the devs don't have to make the hard choice of adding things for a small crowd or changing a character to make everyone happy. Perhaps EA will finally see that quality RPGs take time to make and just give Bioware the time from the get go. That way they can build the balance you seek into the game.

 

P.S.Sofajokey, you are my hero. I couldn't have said it better if I put all my effort into it!

The people that wanted to romance them with an elf/human are a pretty narrow amount of people. This way those people would still get content and so would everyone else. It's unfortunate that not everyone can be a romance, but this would be more fair.

[Ianamus]

It's not that hard to add in extra scenes of communication in comparison to adding a romance. I've never played a Bioware game that couldn't benefit from more friendship content and I don't believe this one wouldn't, either. Allan didn't say in the thread that there was any particular impracticalities. He just said the content would likely go into developing the individual character and not other romances.

 

It depends just how much content is already there though. If we are talking Dragon Age 2 levels then yes, more time and money should definitely have been spent adding more dialogue, but if we are talking even more conversations than Origins had then there is already a substantial amount, and the resources would be better spent exploring different avenues with that character, like romance, which will add a lot more to the character than a few more conversations available to everyone would.

 

The romance would also have been relatively easy to do because all cinematic scenes could be tailored to the female elf model, whereas cinematic conversations scenes for all Inquisitors would have required cinematics that fit every gender/ace.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It depends just how much content is already there though. If we are talking Dragon Age 2 levels then yes, more time and money should definitely have been spent adding more dialogue, but if we are talking even more conversations than Origins had then there is already a substantial amount, and the resources would be better spent exploring different avenues with that character, like romance, which will add a lot more to the character than a few more conversations available to everyone would.

 

The romance would also have been relatively easy to do because all cinematic scenes could be tailored to the female elf model, whereas cinematic conversations scenes for all Inquisitors would have required cinematics that fit every gender/ace.

I don't agree that there couldn't be more friendship content than the level in Origins, so I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree. It's a totally subjective point of preference, but I would have definitely been happy to get more friendship content with characters in any Bioware game I've played.  

[Milan92]

Why guys have so much pain? In DAo there was 2 girls, in DA - 2 and in DAI you have 2. Nothing is changed.

 

I noticed that as well.

 

We had Leliana and Morrigan in DAO, we had Isabela and Merril in DA2.

 

Now we have Cassandra and Josephine.