4203 réponses à ce sujet

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Well at least its more chilled in here now, Laidlaw's thread is still a crazy house 

Posts like this don't help. 

[Gwydden]

Hey, if you're going to be pedantic, don't forget the aces. Or do, it's fine, everyone else does. 

If you insist...

 

[ElitePinecone]

Just to expand on my thoughts a bit in relation to Solas/Cullen being added...

 

I think it's somewhat unfortunate that many fans seem to see romances as being created for them rather than being created by the writers. As if the sole justification for their inclusion is the end satisfaction of the player, and as if the romances contain no inherent artistic value beyond the enjoyment of the person using them.

 

This is expressed in the sense that the romance arcs are things intended for them to competitively consume ("I'm happy I got character X", "character Y is hotter/better/cooler than character Z"), rather than a story that the writers themselves might actually want to explore.  I know that in reality this is a commercial product and we are literally paying for content, but the writers wouldn't be in this industry if they also didn't want to write for the sake of art. Dorian might be a great way to satisfy gay men and attract them to play Inquisition, sure, but David seemed genuinely excited about getting the chance to write about a gay character in a videogame - and I think we do a disservice to the writers if the romances are only seen in terms of consumption and player demand. 

 

(I wish I'd done cultural theory at uni because I'm struggling to find the vocab to express my meaning here.)

 

People mentioned Sebastian before as an example of a romance that was dissatisfying because of the restriction to femHawke and the character's vow of chastity. Isn't it more interesting precisely because that sort of romantic arc is so rare in contemporary media? He was an extremely devout (even moralistic or puritan?) character in a medium that doesn't often feature religion with much nuance - and that's fascinating. There is a power and a purpose to Sebastian's character that exists whether or not you liked the romance, and I'm glad the writers had a chance to do that. 

 

My point is: the writers are smart and cool peeps, I like what they do with the romances, and I reckon that as long as everyone gets some options, they should be let free to do whatever they want. There is artistic merit in the romantic storylines beyond the enjoyment that specific players derive from them. Representation is important, but so are interesting stories written with passion by the writers.

[wright1978]

I'll reserve final judgement till i see the quality of the original romances. I don't particularly like the notion of such a skewed split anyhow but its the issue of romances feeling like they could do with additional depth that has long frustrated me. So i want to see much deeper romance content in DAI, given they had all this extra resource to plough into skewed variety for one particular group.

[DeityDi]

 Isn't it more interesting precisely because that sort of romantic arc is so rare in contemporary media?

If only Sebastian himself wasn't so boring with his born-again thing, I could've agree. 

Hawke's flirt lines were sooo bad though. Not chaste, nor cute. How on earth it worked out at all? It's like she was harrasing him with her mere presence, lol. There's a reason why they didn't try to pull out asexual romances in DAI, and I guess it's a good thing. For now.

[raging_monkey]

What i dont unstand is why the fixation on this at best its minor content that adds depth. If they gain stat bonus for romancing great but they dont so why the disapointment.(note i support equality and fair representation)

[Hadeedak]

+2 con for romancing Iron Bull!

+2 dexterity for romancing Sera!

[TheJediSaint]

+2 con for romancing Iron Bull!

+2 dexterity for romancing Sera!

5 percentile point increase on your verbal GRE score from romancing Josephine.

[Pierce Miller]

What i dont unstand is why the fixation on this at best its minor content that adds depth. If they gain stat bonus for romancing great but they dont so why the disapointment.(note i support equality and fair representation)

Actually I believe it's a small minority of people that are that interested in romances, It just so happens that they're also the most vocal.

[raging_monkey]

Actually I believe it's a small minority of people that are that interested in romances, It just so happens that they're also the most vocal.

still doesnt explain why they flame devs and others i just dont get it

[HiroVoid]

still doesnt explain why they flame devs and others i just dont get it

Because they're upset and upset people often don't do rational things?

[Pierce Miller]

still doesnt explain why they flame devs and others i just dont get it

Some people make their characters into fantastical versions of themselves, something they wish they were. Romance is an extension of this. They want a vast array of choice so that they can choose what suits them best. Some people get very emotionally attached to this.

[Ryzaki]

still doesnt explain why they flame devs and others i just dont get it

 

Because every group (yes even the ones you support) have trolls and idiots.

 

This isn't restricted to just those that like the romances.

[Phate Phoenix]

Just to expand on my thoughts a bit in relation to Solas/Cullen being added...

 

I think it's somewhat unfortunate that many fans seem to see romances as being created for them rather than being created by the writers. As if the sole justification for their inclusion is the end satisfaction of the player, and as if the romances contain no inherent artistic value beyond the enjoyment of the person using them.

 

This is expressed in the sense that the romance arcs are things intended for them to competitively consume ("I'm happy I got character X", "character Y is hotter/better/cooler than character Z"), rather than a story that the writers themselves might actually want to explore.  I know that in reality this is a commercial product and we are literally paying for content, but the writers wouldn't be in this industry if they also didn't want to write for the sake of art. Dorian might be a great way to satisfy gay men and attract them to play Inquisition, sure, but David seemed genuinely excited about getting the chance to write about a gay character in a videogame - and I think we do a disservice to the writers if the romances are only seen in terms of consumption and player demand. 

 

(I wish I'd done cultural theory at uni because I'm struggling to find the vocab to express my meaning here.)

 

People mentioned Sebastian before as an example of a romance that was dissatisfying because of the restriction to femHawke and the character's vow of chastity. Isn't it more interesting precisely because that sort of romantic arc is so rare in contemporary media? He was an extremely devout (even moralistic or puritan?) character in a medium that doesn't often feature religion with much nuance - and that's fascinating. There is a power and a purpose to Sebastian's character that exists whether or not you liked the romance, and I'm glad the writers had a chance to do that. 

 

My point is: the writers are smart and cool peeps, I like what they do with the romances, and I reckon that as long as everyone gets some options, they should be let free to do whatever they want. There is artistic merit in the romantic storylines beyond the enjoyment that specific players derive from them. Representation is important, but so are interesting stories written with passion by the writers.

 

Oh, I would give anything to have had Sebastian's romance be more fleshed out, given more scenes. I mean, this probably is entirely wrapped up in my desire for asexual content (which he wasn't, trust me, I know) but, God, he was so close.

 

Also I'm out of likes, so, here's a heart instead: 

[Maria Caliban]

A couple of pages late with this, but it sounded like the devs simply had more stories that they wanted to tell.

Stories about white, straight men.

As a defense, this is probably not as strong as you think.

[wright1978]

What i dont unstand is why the fixation on this at best its minor content that adds depth. If they gain stat bonus for romancing great but they dont so why the disapointment.(note i support equality and fair representation)

 

People get passionate about romance and characters. Though i would be interesting to see reaction if they announced mages having 4 specialisations and other classes 2. i have a feeling there might still be a reaction on the boards.

[HiroVoid]

Stories about white, straight men.

As a defense, this is probably not as strong as you think.

Gaider also mentioned cinematics for each race/gender combination as part of the reason for the race gates, so that may have factored in as well.

[ElitePinecone]

Stories about white, straight men.

As a defense, this is probably not as strong as you think.

 

That's certainly a valid criticism of their choices in this particular instance, but not the idea of telling stories with more romances in general.

 

Would it be as dissatisfying with a bisexual Vivienne and Scout Harding?

 

(My point really had nothing to do with Solas or Blackwall as white, straight men - they're extra stories that BW want to explore. That the representation might be problematic isn't really a reason not to support the freedom of the writers, in general, to tell their own stories.)

[Maria Caliban]

Gaider also mentioned cinematics for each race/gender combination as part of the reason for the race gates, so that may have factored in as well.

I can't say what their reasoning was. Maybe it was to please a perceived fanbase or maybe it was because there was a story they wanted to tell.

As far as we know, DA:I had a 2/2/2 split, the developers got extra time, and decided to add two new romances, both for straight women. If this was just 'for the fans,' then why not make Blackwall gay? If this was just because they had a story they wanted to tell... yah, the stories they wanted to tell was that of straight, white men. Not bisexual or gay men. Not black women of whatever sexuality.

Lastly, if they had time to add two extra romances, why was Iron Bull being available to all a 'last minute' fix? They added an additional two romances for straight women before they even made sure queer men might have access to more than one LI?

[HiroVoid]

Lastly, if they had time to add two extra romances, why was Iron Bull being available to all a 'last minute' fix? They added an additional two romances for straight women before they even made sure queer men might have access to more than one LI?

Wasn't Iron Bull only gated against dwarves before?  Honestly, I could see Bioware going 'There were only 3% of people or so that played dwarves in the first game, so thinking about the number of people that play gay dwarves would be about maybe 1% of people who play the game.'  That's unfortunate, but I could see that possibly being the reasoning.

[wright1978]

I can't say what their reasoning was. Maybe it was to please a perceived fanbase or maybe it was because there was a story they wanted to tell.

As far as we know, DA:I had a 2/2/2 split, the developers got extra time, and decided to add two new romances, both for straight women. If this was just 'for the fans,' then why not make Blackwall gay? If this was just because they had a story they wanted to tell... yah, the stories they wanted to tell was that of straight, white men. Not bisexual or gay men. Not black women of whatever sexuality.

Lastly, if they had time to add two extra romances, why was Iron Bull being available to all a 'last minute' fix? They added an additional two romances for straight women before they even made sure queer men might have access to more than one LI?

 

Yikes i'd forgotten that. That well and truly leapfrogs my desire for deeper existing romances as an issue in the pecking order of issues.

[ElitePinecone]

I think we're forgetting that Vivienne has a story reason why she isn't a romance option.

 

That is presumably a story that they wanted to tell, and it was part of her arc from the beginning.

[daveliam]

I can't say what their reasoning was. Maybe it was to please a perceived fanbase or maybe it was because there was a story they wanted to tell.

As far as we know, DA:I had a 2/2/2 split, the developers got extra time, and decided to add two new romances, both for straight women. If this was just 'for the fans,' then why not make Blackwall gay? If this was just because they had a story they wanted to tell... yah, the stories they wanted to tell was that of straight, white men. Not bisexual or gay men. Not black women of whatever sexuality.

Lastly, if they had time to add two extra romances, why was Iron Bull being available to all a 'last minute' fix? They added an additional two romances for straight women before they even made sure queer men might have access to more than one LI?

This is the thing that sits the uneasiest with me. We knew that Cullen, the third (or maybe FOURTH) option for straight women, was an LI BEFORE they fixed Iron Bull so that gay men got their SECOND option for all of the races. That just isn't cool with me. If that timeline was shifted a bit, I'd be cool. But knowing that they had extra dev time and chose to devote it to providing two additional options for straight players when there were still gay players with only option makes me a little squicky. Not sure how I feel about it so I'm choosing to pretend it's not the case because it all worked out (mas o menos) in the end.

[AresKeith]

Lastly, if they had time to add two extra romances, why was Iron Bull being available to all a 'last minute' fix? They added an additional two romances for straight women before they even made sure queer men might have access to more than one LI?

 

Because Iron Bull wouldn't have been available to a certain player race, and Bioware once said that options for player races weren't a major concern for them