4203 réponses à ce sujet

[LiaraShepard]

But that turns representation into a numbers game, which I don't think is the right way to approach it.

 

But there's clearly something wrong, if ALWAYS the same groups get a higher number than others.....

[TheJediSaint]

But there's clearly something wrong, if ALWAYS the same groups get a higher number than others.....

But there's more to representation than numbers.  If Bioware had more gay romances than straight romances, but all the gay romances were caricatures, that would not be good example of equal representation.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But don't you think it's more like real life that way? I seriously wanted to date my smoking hot male coworker, turns out he's gay. Damn, oh well, that's life! Plus, even if he was hetero, that doesn't mean he's particularly attracted to me, anyway. Maybe he'd prefer a tall blonde chick instead of a short brunette.

Well, if you think it's super cool to get shot down, maybe you'd be just as cool with getting less options consistently? So it feels realistic to you? 

[daveliam]

The difference is that a lack of options for a gender/sexuality results in less representation for a real world demographic. Being forced to play another gender or sexuality to have options is nowhere near the same as being forced to play a difference fictional race. Solas is an option for straight women. The fact that you have to change to an imaginary race is irrelevant to the fact that he is available to straight women. If he was available to only gay male elves, there is literally no way I would say we didn't get an extra option. I would be positively floored that we did. Like, it's difficult for me to even describe how amazed I would be if a game developer did for me what other people are writing off as something that "doesn't count". That's what majority privilege is.   

 

WORD!  This is exactly what I'm thinking during this conversation!

 

But does extra options for one group automatically mean other groups are shorted?

 

Kind of, yes.  Especially when it's the same group(s) that always get less options.  Then, definitely yes, those groups are "getting shorted"......again.

 

But don't you think it's more like real life that way? I seriously wanted to date my smoking hot male coworker, turns out he's gay. Damn, oh well, that's life! Plus, even if he was hetero, that doesn't mean he's particularly attracted to me, anyway. Maybe he'd prefer a tall blonde chick instead of a short brunette.

 

I live my life in reality where I'm a member of a minority and have to deal with the fact that 90% of the guys that I meet aren't interested in me.  I don't need that in my fantasy game escapism as well.

 

(To be honest, I don't have that issue anymore since I'm married now, but the feelings were still real at the time.  ALL THE FEELINGS!)

[Ray561]

But there's more to representation than numbers.  If Bioware had more gay romances than straight romances, but all the gay romances were caricatures, that would not be good example of equal representation.

That actually the Point I was trying to make before but I suck at it.

[LiaraShepard]

But there's more to representation than numbers.  If Bioware had more gay romances than straight romances, but all the gay romances were caricatures, that would not be good example of equal representation.

 

of course it wouldn't be good representation. and I don't say the amount of romances is more important than the quality. All I want to say is that equality is important. The romances should have the same high quality for all orientations PLUS the same amount of options.

[Panda]

Alright, you don't want to play an elf. I can understand that. I know that means you can't have Solas. And I know that sucks.

 

But please don't pretend that's the same as having to go against your orientation to see the content. It's not.

 

Depending on how you play (self-inserts or roleplay) of cource it's different to go against your gender/orientation than fantasy race. My point was there that choice of character should be given to player in roleplaying game and because Solases romance doesn't let your either your gender or race to be choice, it's very limiting.

[DeityDi]

I hear what you're saying. I'm heterosexual female, and I also have every intention of playing through all the romances. It will feel weird to play as a male protagonist, but I plan to make him hot so I have something nice to look at. And also, a lesbian Inquisitor. I'm so not a lesbian, but I still want to see what Sera has to offer.

Funny thing, I can't play as a female neither in DA2 nor in ME. I think it has something to do with the voice actresses and how Hawke and femShep was written. I don't like them and I don't want to be related to them in any way. Why can't they be more like Aveline/Cass or Morrigan, goddamit. >_> It's easier to play as a male and don't draw parallels somehow.

I wonder, will DAI be different in any way. Though from what I've seen so far at least one "female voice" is, well, decent to say the least. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

But that turns representation into a numbers game, which I don't think is the right way to approach it.

In part, it has to be. I don't see how it can't be. If the numbers consistently work against a certain group, there is a problem and it should be seriously considered.

 

But it isn't as if the quality of options hasn't consistently been against LGB characters in past games, either, with the one exception of DA2. And, even then, overall representation wasn't especially good. Just the quality of LIs wasn't against LGB players.

[Chanda]

Well, if you think it's super cool to get shot down, maybe you'd be just as cool with getting less options consistently? So it feels realistic to you? 

 

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that these are characters with their own sexual orientations and preferences, which makes the game more like real life. Solas prefers women, specifically elven women. Dorian prefers men. There isn't always going to be equal options for everyone in real life. I can't force my gay coworker to date me, he's got his own preferences. (Using the gay coworker just as an example, btw. I'm married with kids, and am completely out of the dating pool.)

[Ray561]

The I thing I Cant see is people say we got less options so we have been Screwed over bye Bio-ware I could understand it if it was like Mass Effect number difference though.  

[daveliam]

But there's more to representation than numbers.  If Bioware had more gay romances than straight romances, but all the gay romances were caricatures, that would not be good example of equal representation.

 

Moot point because Bioware has never had more gay romances than straight romances.  Let's work on getting even numbers first and then we can talk about what it would be like if we had the majority of options.

 

However, I agree, the quality is important.  But the quality of a romance can't matter if the romance doesn't exist.  It's why people are a little sore around this "Well, Solas doesn't count because he's not available to all straight women."  Or, "Well, Cullen doesn't count because he's an NPC romance".  People have more options and are complaining to people who just want equal options about the lack of quality in their larger number of options.  Even worse when people say, "Well aren't gay men lucky!  They have two companion romances!  They have it so good!" when it's very likely that every other group will have two companion romances plus an NPC romance.

[Ianamus]

No, but not everyone enjoys roleplaying a different sexual orientation or gender and that's fine.

 

Let's just imagine:  The last LI is Blackwall and he's bisexual and Cassandra is gated against everyone but humans.  Straight male elves, qunari, and dwarves would only have Josephine as an option.  Would all of the straight male players be comforted by the fact that they could always play as a gay male and romance Iron Bull and Dorian?  Probably not.  Some might, but most wouldn't.

 

Having only one option (so not even a choice) is a bit different though, as you yourself have stated in the past, with regards to Origins. 

 

If male elves and dwarves had two female  LI options and humans and qunari had three I wouldn't mind the fact that I'd have to play as a human to experience the extra romance, but if my male elf inquisitor only had one possible female LI that's a different matter.

 

It's a similar principle if female Inquisitors had more options. I'd be more than happy to pick a female elf to try Solas' romance.

[LiaraShepard]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that these are characters with their own sexual orientations and preferences, which makes the game more like real life. Solas prefers women, specifically elven women. Dorian prefers men. There isn't always going to be equal options for everyone in real life. I can't force my gay coworker to date me, he's got his own preferences. (Using the gay coworker just as an example, btw. I'm married with kids, and am completely out of the dating pool.)

 

if the game was like real life, homosexual gamers wouldn't get an option at all..........thanks

[NextArishok]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that these are characters with their own sexual orientations and preferences, which makes the game more like real life. Solas prefers women, specifically elven women. Dorian prefers men. There isn't always going to be equal options for everyone in real life. I can't force my gay coworker to date me, he's got his own preferences. (Using the gay coworker just as an example, btw. I'm married with kids, and am completely out of the dating pool.)

 

 

well gee just break out hearts why don't you.....don't you care about our feelings too? 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chanda]

if the game was like real life, homosexual gamers wouldn't get an option at all..........thanks

 

How can you say that? I see gay couples all the time, even in my tiny community. There are obviously options for gay people in real life.

[Panda]

Of course not every straight female can romance him.  That's the entire point of race-gating.  But it doesn't take away the fact that I could play as a straight female Inquisitor and Solas can be my LI.  Ergo, he's an option for straight female Inquisitors.  It's really that simple. 

 

If Dorian is a human only romance, I can't say he's not a gay male romance.  I have to count him.  I can certainly qualify it by saying that not all gay males have access to him, but I can't disregard him altogether and pretend his romance doesn't exist.

 

Using your criteria, none of the romances count except for Iron Bull and Josephine because they are all restricted in some way. 

 

Romances seem to be counted with who can romance them. So straight female would be: 2 at this point and straight elf female: 3. I'd count it like that since counting Solas into straight female category gives too much promise.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that these are characters with their own sexual orientations and preferences, which makes the game more like real life. Solas prefers women, specifically elven women. Dorian prefers men. There isn't always going to be equal options for everyone in real life. I can't force my gay coworker to date me, he's got his own preferences. (Using the gay coworker just as an example, btw. I'm married with kids, and am completely out of the dating pool.)

That's great, but they choose to never have equal options and always to favor straight plays. The problem isn't that characters have set sexualities or that the options "aren't always" equal. It's that they're consistently slanted against certain demographics. 

[LiaraShepard]

How can you say that? I see gay couples all the time, even in my tiny community. There are obviously options for gay people in real life.

 

because it's rather unlikely to have two homosexual people in a group of 9 persons.... based on your statement, there should be 8-9 people heterosexual, and 0-1 homosexual. would you call that a fair representation, because "you cannot have everyone"? That's how real life works...there aren't many gay people together, except there's no random distribution....but that doesn't work in the free field.

[DeityDi]

Romances seem to be counted with who can romance them

But that's only half-true. Because many people don't mind same-sexual romances, as long as it opposite sex to their own.

[TheJediSaint]

Moot point because Bioware has never had more gay romances than straight romances.  Let's work on getting even numbers first and then we can talk about what it would be like if we had the majority of options.

 

However, I agree, the quality is important.  But the quality of a romance can't matter if the romance doesn't exist.  It's why people are a little sore around this "Well, Solas doesn't count because he's not available to all straight women."  Or, "Well, Cullen doesn't count because he's an NPC romance".  People have more options and are complaining to people who just want equal options about the lack of quality in their larger number of options.  Even worse when people say, "Well aren't gay men lucky!  They have two companion romances!  They have it so good!" when it's very likely that every other group will have two companion romances plus an NPC romance.

Solas does count, and so does Cullen.  Anyone who says otherwise is being disingenuous.

 

But the point I made is not moot.  I think it's incorrect to judge how representative DAI is based on simple numbers .  I think people will have to actually play the game and see how characters like Sera, Dorian, Josephine, Iron Bull, and others contribute to the story before they can make an informed judgement.

[daveliam]

The I thing I Cant see is people say we got less options so we have been Screwed over bye Bio-ware I could understand it if it was like Mass Effect number difference though.  

 

Because the people who are saying this are largely looking Bioware historically.  I've run some numbers.  Here they are:

 

* There have been 62 romances in Bioware games.  (counting the 7 from DA: I)

* 24 of them have been straight women.  19 of them have been straight men.  8 have been bisexual women.  6 have been bisexual men.  3 have been lesbians.  And 2 have been gay men.

* Straight men have access to 32 out of 62 romances.  Straight women have access to 25 out of 62 romances.  Lesbians have access to 11 out of 62 romances.  And gay men have access to 8 out of 62 romances. 

* In 10 out of the 10 games with romances, gay men have had the least amount of options.  In 7 out of 10 games, lesbians have tied gay men for the least amount of options. 

 

This is the context that DA: I exists.  If some people are just looking at DA: I stand-alone, then the argument is acontextual.  The game exists within the real world and the developer has a history.  This context is important in the argument.

Again, I say this as a devoted, life-long fan of Bioware.  They have proved their support for LGBT players time and again.  It doesn't mean that they can't do a little better, though.  If they don't take the next step and have actual equality, then who will?

[Ray561]

Because the people who are saying this are largely looking Bioware historically.  I've run some numbers.  Here they are:

 

* There have been 62 romances in Bioware games.  (counting the 7 from DA: I)

* 24 of them have been straight women.  19 of them have been straight men.  8 have been bisexual women.  6 have been bisexual men.  3 have been lesbians.  And 2 have been gay men.

* Straight men have access to 32 out of 62 romances.  Straight women have access to 25 out of 62 romances.  Lesbians have access to 11 out of 62 romances.  And gay men have access to 8 out of 62 romances. 

* In 10 out of the 10 games with romances, gay men have had the least amount of options.  In 7 out of 10 games, lesbians have tied gay men for the least amount of options. 

 

This is the context that DA: I exists.  If some people are just looking at DA: I stand-alone, then the argument is acontextual.  The game exists within the real world and the developer has a history.  This context is important in the argument.

Again, I say this as a devoted, life-long fan of Bioware.  They have proved their support for LGBT players time and again.  It doesn't mean that they can't do a little better, though.  If they don't take the next step and have actual equality, then who will?

I can see that with the past game even said so but I mean this game specifically. 

[Amirit]

After "Varric is forever friend only" announcement it's hard for me to sympathize anyone complaining about Solas. We have got our 2\2\2. The number of romaces is equal for every sexual orientation now. It is as equal as it can be.

 

Now, there are 2 extra. EXTRA. Like Sebastian DLC. And this extra allows any of us to RP for that particular romance should you choose it. They are still available to us, while Varric is lost forever. You want to complain about combination of your Hero\Companion? Think first about thousands who were allowed to hope to the last moment and then denied that hope.  

[Chanda]

because it's rather unlikely to have two homosexual people in a group of 9 persons.... based on your statement, there should be 8-9 people heterosexual, and 0-1 homosexual. would you call that a fair representation, because "you cannot have everyone"? That's how real life works...there aren't many gay people together, except there's no random distribution.

 

I'm not sure how you get that from my statement, because that's not what I said at all. But then I just got off the graveyard shift like four hours ago and I'm pretty tired, so I may not be getting the point of people's comments like should be if I were really awake. But going off of what you said, basing things on real life, I'm going off of my own experiences, not some national average. Where I work, there are three gay coworkers, two are men, one is a woman. There used to be three men, but one moved away. So I think the numbers would be pretty good in those odds.