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[daveliam]

Having only one option (so not even a choice) is a bit different though, as you yourself have stated in the past, with regards to Origins. 

 

If male elves and dwarves had two female  LI options and humans and qunari had three I wouldn't mind the fact that I'd have to play as a human to experience the extra romance, but if my male elf inquisitor only had one possible female LI that's a different matter.

 

It's a similar principle if female Inquisitors had more options. I'd be more than happy to pick a female elf to try Solas' romance.

 

That's a fair point.  There's a huge difference between no choice and a choice.  I still don't think that this means that Solas doesn't count because there are two other options for straight women, though.

 

Romances seem to be counted with who can romance them. So straight female would be: 2 at this point and straight elf female: 3. I'd count it like that since counting Solas into straight female category gives too much promise.

 

But that's not how people are categorizing it in this conversation.  People are looking at a very simplistic 4 category system.  Solas goes into the 'straight women' bucket.  If people look at all of the race, gender, and sexuality combinations, then yes, he only counts in one of the categories.  But it's completely untrue to say that he doesn't count for straight women.  Because he does.

 

 

But the point I made is not moot.  I think it's incorrect to judge how representative DAI is based on simple numbers .  I think people will have to actually play the game and see how characters like Sera, Dorian, Josephine, Iron Bull, and others contribute to the story before they can make an informed judgement.

 

Another fair point.  I totally agree that people need to play the game to see how "good" the romances are.  I think that they are equally important concepts.  A romance can't be good if it doesn't exist and a romance that exists but is terrible is hardly something to strive for.

[carlo angelo]

But that turns representation into a numbers game, which I don't think is the right way to approach it.

 

But there's clearly something wrong, if ALWAYS the same groups get a higher number than others.....

 

On one hand, I'm going to reserve my judgement, wait til the last LI is announced (which would hopefully hurt the least for everyone), and trust the writers on this one. The game isn't out yet, but even then, I'm liking my two options so far, even if it's the only two. But hey, I'm just looking at Inquisition and not the games before it. On the other hand, I'm with everyone else who says that always being on the lesser end of the spectrum gets tiring, so it would have been great if it were the whole 2/4/2 split a lot of people were going on about before- so that everyone's got equal options (with bisexual inquisitors even more so, but that's a given). And this is looking at what daveliam posted above.

 

But I'm with JediSaint to try look at the quality of the writing behind these characters. It looks like Dorian might be more integral to the story than we initially thought, and for that, I'm pretty happy. At the same time, I'm also a little nervous for the final announcement, so I'm going to try and not put much stock into that one.

[daveliam]

I can see that with the past game even said so but I mean this game specifically. 

 

But I'm pretty sure that the LGB players in this thread are talking about Bioware historically.  At least I am.  Yes, this game is better than the games where I got zero options.  But if I get the least amount of options again (for the 11th time in a row......), I'm sure you can see how I would be disappointed by this, right?

[Ianamus]

It always comes back to this "gay players have less options in previous games/overall", no matter what the romance debate. I know it's both true and quite sad, but harsh as it is, I honestly just don't see this changing. Not in games aimed at a general audience.

 

If a Bioware game did have more gay romances people would be angry, and much as I hate to admit it, some of those arguments might actually hold weight. If a game does have more gay romances  then is the game being marketed towards a gay audience? You could argue that it is, and I could see why people who buy a game could be annoyed if it had more gay romance options and it wasn't made clear before hand that it would. And if it was made clear before hand then it gives the impression that the game is being marketed primarily towards the LGBT fanbase. 

 

Of course, the obvious argument to this is that the games with more straight romances aren't really being marketed to the straight playerbase. But then all games aimed at the general market are mainly being sold to straight people and people with no interest in same gender romance.

 

I stick to what I've been saying for the last few days: Games aimed at the fans of same-gender romance content are the solution when it comes to romance options. Then people who enjoy that content can actually be catered to and provided numerous options tailored for them without the people who do not want that content feeling that the game is being mismarketed towards them, since it's very clearly designed for and aimed at fans of same gender romance content.

 

Not that Bioware should stop providing as equal numbers as they can now in their mainstream games, but the way I see it It's the only real way to make up the difference in the future. 

[TheJediSaint]

Another fair point.  I totally agree that people need to play the game to see how "good" the romances are.  I think that they are equally important concepts.  A romance can't be good if it doesn't exist and a romance that exists but is terrible is hardly something to strive for.

I just want to add that I fully agree that Bioware can do better when it comes to representation.  I'm all for people who a different from me having equal opportunity to be the hero. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Because the people who are saying this are largely looking Bioware historically.  I've run some numbers.  Here they are:

 

* There have been 62 romances in Bioware games.  (counting the 7 from DA: I)

* 24 of them have been straight women.  19 of them have been straight men.  8 have been bisexual women.  6 have been bisexual men.  3 have been lesbians.  And 2 have been gay men.

* Straight men have access to 32 out of 62 romances.  Straight women have access to 25 out of 62 romances.  Lesbians have access to 11 out of 62 romances.  And gay men have access to 8 out of 62 romances. 

* In 10 out of the 10 games with romances, gay men have had the least amount of options.  In 7 out of 10 games, lesbians have tied gay men for the least amount of options. 

 

This is the context that DA: I exists.  If some people are just looking at DA: I stand-alone, then the argument is acontextual.  The game exists within the real world and the developer has a history.  This context is important in the argument.

Again, I say this as a devoted, life-long fan of Bioware.  They have proved their support for LGBT players time and again.  It doesn't mean that they can't do a little better, though.  If they don't take the next step and have actual equality, then who will?

Thank you for collecting all those numbers, this post adds a lot to what we've been trying to say.

 

And I think it's worth noting that, when games do have straight and gay characters, the straight characters have very often been more plot involved. Morrigan and Alistair were both much more plot-centric than Leliana and Zevran, especially Zevran who has basically no plot-cental involvement in the entire game series, unlike the other three, who have continuing roles in a major way over the entire franchise. Garrus, Miranda and Tali are all ME options that seem wildly popular, while Kaidan gets a lukewarm response (although I love him and was grateful to finally have a chance with him) and practically nobody is raging with jealousy over our gay ME NPCs.

 

Further expanding the issue of quality, both Zevran and Anders showed a strong preference for women over their span in the game. Fenris hooks up with a female if you don't romance him, even though he shows less so. Kaidan talks about a woman he had a crush on and talks about how attractive Asari are, shows basically no interest in men outside of Shepherd. No bisexual men ever show a preference for men. They went so far with Anders as to omit his story with Karl, so as not to talk about his attraction to men towards female players.

 

Telling us to look at quality is just telling us to examine another area where we've been let down repeatedly. The quality is lacking, as well as the quantity.

[LiaraShepard]

I'm not sure how you get that from my statement, because that's not what I said at all. But then I just got off the graveyard shift like four hours ago and I'm pretty tired, so I may not be getting the point of people's comments like should be if I were really awake. But going off of what you said, basing things on real life, I'm going off of my own experiences, not some national average. Where I work, there are three gay coworkers, two are men, one is a woman. There used to be three men, but one moved away. So I think the numbers would be pretty good in those odds.

 

Of course, there are exceptions. You can go to the cinema and of the six people sitting in there five could be gay...but it's very unlikely. And that's why I don't like the reference to the real world if people talk about fantasy games. It's bad enough that gays and lesbians have less options in real life. They should at least have the same amount of options in a fantasy game. I'm glad Bioware is one of the few companys that gives us choices, but this doesn't mean, that it's alright to always have less options than other groups.

[Ray561]

But I'm pretty sure that the LGB players in this thread are talking about Bioware historically.  At least I am.  Yes, this game is better than the games where I got zero options.  But if I get the least amount of options again (for the 11th time in a row......), I'm sure you can see how I would be disappointed by this, right?

I can see it yes and if it turns out to be true I hope the next game is well rounded.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

After "Varric is forever friend only" announcement it's hard for me to sympathize anyone complaining about Solas. We have got our 2\2\2. The number of romaces is equal for every sexual orientation now. It is as equal as it can be.

 

Now, there are 2 extra. EXTRA. Like Sebastian DLC. And this extra allows any of us to RP for that particular romance should you choose it. They are still available to us, while Varric is lost forever. You want to complain about combination of your Hero\Companion? Think first about thousands who were allowed to hope to the last moment and then denied that hope.  

Losing the chance to romance a specific character is not the same as having your real world demographic repeatedly given less options. Unless you are the world's only real world dwarf. In which case, I am very, very sorry for your loss. Your people have been treated very unfortunately.  

[Ceoldoren]

Losing the chance to romance a specific character is not the same as having your real world demographic repeatedly given less options. Unless you are the world's only real world dwarf. In which case, I am very, very sorry for your loss. Your people have been treated very unfortunately.  

I know you were being sarcastic, but dwarves are real. 

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I know you were being sarcastic, but dwarves are real. 

Well, not in the context of Thedas dwarves, but I guess it does read wrong. 

[Panda]

But that's not how people are categorizing it in this conversation.  People are looking at a very simplistic 4 category system.  Solas goes into the 'straight women' bucket.  If people look at all of the race, gender, and sexuality combinations, then yes, he only counts in one of the categories.  But it's completely untrue to say that he doesn't count for straight women.  Because he does.

 

 If this is just about equality issue: too many straight LI's versus gay one's, then I can understand that. But if the conversation is about what players can pick for their characters then Solas being option for straight female characters is untrue as it needs clarification It's just that also race-gating has huge impact on what player needs to play in order to get his romance.

 

Buut.. should we agree to disagree on this one? ^^

[Amirit]

Losing the chance to romance a specific character is not the same as having your real world demographic repeatedly given less options. Unless you are the world's only real world dwarf. In which case, I am very, very sorry for your loss. Your people have been treated very unfortunately.  

 

And this is the point - yes, in general this is the case: "your real world demographic repeatedly given less options". BUT NOT IN THIS GAME. Not in DAI. in DAI the amount of options is equal. PLUS 2 extra options for specific RP. Cry about DAO or ME, about general injustice but not about DAI, it's not fair to developers.

[sandalisthemaker]

And this is the point - yes, in general this is the case: "your real world demographic repeatedly given less options". BUT NOT IN THIS GAME. Not in DAI. in DAI the amount of options is equal. PLUS 2 extra options for specific RP. Cry about DAO or ME, about general injustice but not about DAI, it's not fair to developers.

 

 

It's not going to be equal.

 

There is still one LI left.

 

That LI cannot simultaneously be available to gay and lesbian Inquisitors, so that means that one of those two groups will have less.

 

And that last LI could possibly be a straight Vivienne, meaning both gays and lesbians will have the least. Again.

[Chanda]

I know you were being sarcastic, but dwarves are real. 

 

Even Peter Dinklage had to marry a non-dwarf. Poor guy.

[daveliam]

If a Bioware game did have more gay romances people would be angry, and much as I hate to admit it, some of those arguments might actually hold weight. If a game does have more gay romances  then is the game being marketed towards a gay audience? You could argue that it is, and I could see why people who buy a game could be annoyed if it had more gay romance options and it wasn't made clear before hand that it would.

 

So let me just follow your logic:  If a game has more gay options than straight options, straight people would be justified in being "angry" and their argument would "hold weight".  But if a game has more straight options than gay options, gay people should just accept it as it is?

[Nocte ad Mortem]

And this is the point - yes, in general this is the case: "your real world demographic repeatedly given less options". BUT NOT IN THIS GAME. Not in DAI. in DAI the amount of options is equal. PLUS 2 extra options for specific RP. Cry about DAO or ME, about general injustice but not about DAI, it's not fair to developers.

Just because the options aren't available to all imaginary races doesn't mean they're not options. I would be amazed to get an options exclusive to me that happened to be restricted by race. That's something most gay people would be amazed to have. 

[Ceoldoren]

It's not going to be equal.

 

There is still one LI left.

 

That LI cannot simultaneously be available to gay and lesbian Inquisitors, so that means that one of those two groups will have less.

Exactly so. 

[Ceoldoren]

So let me just follow your logic:  If a game has more gay options than straight options, straight people would be justified in being "angry" and their argument would "hold weight".  But if a game has more straight options than gay options, gay people should just accept it as it is?

Er, yeah that's what I got from it as well. Absolutely no logic in this argument.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

So let me just follow your logic:  If a game has more gay options than straight options, straight people would be justified in being "angry" and their argument would "hold weight".  But if a game has more straight options than gay options, gay people should just accept it as it is?

His opinion is that any media that has "more" gays is a "niche market" piece that the "mainstream" audience shouldn't be expected to enjoy.  We should only expect a gay main character in a set protagonist game, or any extra gay romances over straight ones, if the piece is specifically a "gay media" piece. It can't be a "mainstream piece" unless it represents the majority primarily, apparently.  

[Chanda]

Exactly so. 

 

Unless they say that both Blackwall and Viv are both romances and bisexual. Then it would be pretty even. Right? I'm tired and my math sucks.

[sandalisthemaker]

"If a Bioware game did have more gay romances people would be angry, and much as I hate to admit it, some of those arguments might actually hold weight. If a game does have more gay romances  then is the game being marketed towards a gay audience? You could argue that it is, and I could see why people who buy a game could be annoyed if it had more gay romance options and it wasn't made clear before hand that it would. And if it was made clear before hand then it gives the impression that the game is being marketed primarily towards the LGBT fanbase. "

 

 

                                                                                                                                                                               - Ianamus

 

 

 

 

_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

 

 

Of course.  Gays should always settle for less and be grateful for always getting less.

 

Sounds legit.

 

Straights, however, should never have to tolerate that.  Only then would that be an injustice.

 

I can't. 

 

Edit:

 

I memorialized the quote because it is so rich.

[Ceoldoren]

Unless they say that both Blackwall and Viv are both romances and bisexual. Then it would be pretty even. Right? I'm tired and my math sucks.

I think straight women would still get an extra option. But I certainly wouldn't complain if that happened.

[WildOrchid]

Unless they say that both Blackwall and Viv are both romances and bisexual. Then it would be pretty even. Right? I'm tired and my math sucks.

 

Yeah that would be the ideal.... :/

[Ceoldoren]

Of course.  Gays should always settle for less and be grateful for always getting less.

 

Sounds legit.

 

Straights, however, should never have to tolerate that.  Only then would that be an injustice.

 

I can't.