4203 réponses à ce sujet

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I believe David Gaider put his best effort into writing Dorian.  I also think he did the same for Cassandra.  I think Bioware has made a real effort to make the best possible romances, regardless of their orientation.  I hope that I'm proven right when the game comes out.

I hope so, too. I hope nobody gets a "lesser" romance. But the thing is, if all the romances are equal, it is a numbers game. The only way quality makes up for a smaller quantity is if the smaller quantity is of greater quality. If you get three $1 bills and the next guy gets a $1 bill and a $10 bill, then the second guy is clearly getting a better deal, despite less quantity of items. If you get three $1 bills and I get two $1 bills, then I still got less overall quality for my quantity. "Quantity" over "quality" only works here if my smaller number of options are better than the opposing side's larger number of options. 

[TheJediSaint]

I hope so, too. I hope nobody gets a "lesser" romance. But the thing is, if all the romances are equal, it is a numbers game. The only way quality makes up for a smaller quantity is if the smaller quantity is of greater quality. If you get three $1 bills and the next guy gets a $1 bill and a $10 bill, then the second guy is clearly getting a better deal, despite less quantity of items. If you get three $1 bills and I get two $1 bills, then I still got less overall quality for my quantity. "Quantity" over "quality" only works here if my smaller number of options are better than the opposing side's larger number of options. 

Except that not everyone's going to agree which romance is the best and which is the worst.  There are going to be people championing Dorian's romance and others Iron Bull's.  Still others are going to argue over Cassandra's romantic arc and Josephine's.  There's too much subjectivity with romances for numbers to be useful.

[ElitePinecone]

To me it seems like the opposite.  The abundance of romance options in DAI makes equality less necessary, because even without it everyone still gets a choice.

I mostly see it this way too.

The fact that DA2 had equal numbers for everybody was said to be a byproduct of their limited resources and desire to give everyone more than one option, not something that was specifically a goal. If they only had the time and money for four romances, that was the only solution that gave people a choice regardless of gender or orientation.

Now that Inquisition has allowed many more romances and many more types of romances, I'm not sure I necessarily see the wisdom in the argument that the numbers need to be equal. If there's a business or writing case to giving extra options to straight female elves or some other combination of gender/sexuality/race, that's the prerogative of the writers and the company. For all we know they started with a goal of 2/2/2, and the last two are severely race-gated to the point of vastly diminishing their potential audience.

I'm well aware of the arguments about Bioware's historical treatment of LGBT content - I spent more than a year fighting homophobes in the ME2 Fight For The Love thread trying to convince people that BW should include s/s content for ME3. But I feel pretty satisfied with what they're doing in Inquisition, and a big part of me struggles to understand the logic of wanting equal numbers for an audience and potential user base that is clearly not going to be as large as many others. At the end of the day, yes, they are a business, and that must be a part of their deliberations even if it doesn't feature in ours.

If the idea of ME2's FFtL campaign was to get Bioware to recognise that there was a market for s/s content, isn't there an obligation on the part of campaigners for s/s content to realise the true size of our market? I feel like we can't just ignore that in this discussion, even if it's being framed around the idea of fairness and equality.

I think equity and choice are paramount, and I don't see anything grievously wrong with DAI's approach to date.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Except that not everyone's going to agree which romance is the best and which is the worst.  There are going to be people championing Dorian's romance and other Iron Bulls.  Still others are going to argue over Cassandra and Josephine.  There's too much subjectivity with romances for numbers to be useful.

That's definitely true, I imagine, but it isn't an argument to say that number of choices don't matter at all. Giving characters a generally equal amount of content and an equal number for everyone is all they can do. Unless a character is clearly lacking in content, it is subjective who is better. Which is why the fair choice is an equal amount of options with and basically equal amount of content written for each. Some won't like their choices, but that's an individual opinion and not an issue of Bioware actually slanting the content they've created towards a specific demographic as far as your overall chances to find something you'll like.

[Melca36]

Except that not everyone's going to agree which romance is the best and which is the worst.  There are going to be people championing Dorian's romance and others Iron Bull's.  Still others are going to argue over Cassandra's romantic arc and Josephine's.  There's too much subjectivity with romances for numbers to be useful.

 

Can we bullying too?

There will be people who bully others for their choices.  

[TheJediSaint]

That's definitely true, I imagine, but it isn't an argument to say that number of choices don't matter at all. Giving characters a generally equal amount of content and an equal number for everyone is all the can do. Unless a character is clearly lacking in content, it is subjective who is better. Which is why the fair choice is an equal amount of options with and basically equal amount of content written for each. Some won't like their choices, but that's an individual option and not an issue of Bioware actually slanting the content they've created towards a specific demographic as far as your overall chances to find something you'll like.

Even with an totally equal distribution, I doubt you're going to be able to objectively say Bioware's being completely fair.  The subjectivity is just too much.  What I really, really hope is that after the community has played and digested DAI, our Gay, Lesbian, and Bi fellow gamers will be too busy gushing over the quality of the content they do have to worry about the numbers game.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Even with an totally equal distribution, I doubt you're going to be able to objectively say Bioware's being completely fair.  The subjectivity is just too much.  What I really, really hope is that after the community has played and digested DAI, our Gay, Lesbian, and Bi fellow gamers will be too busy gushing over the quality of the content they do have to worry about the numbers game.

Just because there may be small nitpicks people can make doesn't mean they should make the content so obviously unbalanced to create a whole additional romance arc (or more) for the same demographics every time. The answer to "it will never be objectively equal" isn't "so, go ahead and keep giving the same people less options every time". 

[Hanako Ikezawa]

At least you have representation in this game, Nocte. Not everyone can say the same.  

[TheJediSaint]

Just because there may be small nitpicks people can make doesn't mean they should make the content so obviously unbalanced to create a whole additional romance arc (or more) for the same demographics every time. The answer to "it will never be objectively equal" isn't "so, go ahead and keep giving the same people less options every time". 

I'm not saying the same group of people should always be given less options.  I'm saying it's premature to judge DAI based only on a statistic.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

At least you have representation in this game, Nocte. Not everyone can say the same.  

Then they're free to express how they would like Bioware to better represent them and, very likely, they will have my support.

[HiroVoid]

I want a height adjuster to represent short humans.

[Ailith Tycane]

I want a height adjuster to represent short humans.

 

I want a height adjuster to represent tall elves. 

[LobselVith8]

Who thinks that Cassandra is black? 

 

I agree that Vivienne is beautiful and should be a love interest. She reminds me of my girlfriend, who is much more beautiful though 

 

I don't think anyone has said Cassandra has the same kind of skin color as Duncan, Isabela, or Vivienne, but some have commented on her skin tone being more tan (so to speak) than some characters.

[HiroVoid]

Oh right.  And a weight adjuster.  In fact, just bring in Dragon's Dogma character creator.

[ElitePinecone]

I think equity and choice are paramount, and I don't see anything grievously wrong with DAI's approach to date.

To clarify this, I mean equity as in fairness. I think the numbers can be fair without being equal.

DAO's shortcoming was that lesbian and gay players had only one option. That was unfair. I think Inquisition is being fairer by including a minimum of two.

I don't think the numbers have to be exactly the same for all orientations, races and genders to be fair, though. In fact, I'd be surprised if they were.

Clearly ten options for straight males and two options for gay ones is both unfair and unequal. I'd be the first person to jump on the barricades. But I just can't summon the motivation to get outraged because straight female elves get Solas and straight male characters might get one more option than everyone else.

Inquisition is already including two potential romances each for lesbian and gay Inquisitors, and they all look pretty great.

[jlb524]

I want a height adjuster to represent tall elves. 

 

I just want elves w/o sticks for arms

[AshesEleven]

I mostly see it this way too.

The fact that DA2 had equal numbers for everybody was said to be a byproduct of their limited resources and desire to give everyone more than one option, not something that was specifically a goal. If they only had the time and money for four romances, that was the only solution that gave people a choice regardless of gender or orientation.

Now that Inquisition has allowed many more romances and many more types of romances, I'm not sure I necessarily see the wisdom in the argument that the numbers need to be equal. If there's a business or writing case to giving extra options to straight female elves or some other combination of gender/sexuality/race, that's the prerogative of the writers and the company. For all we know they started with a goal of 2/2/2, and the last two are severely race-gated to the point of vastly diminishing their potential audience.

I'm well aware of the arguments about Bioware's historical treatment of LGBT content - I spent more than a year fighting homophobes in the ME2 Fight For The Love thread trying to convince people that BW should include s/s content for ME3. But I feel pretty satisfied with what they're doing in Inquisition, and a big part of me struggles to understand the logic of wanting equal numbers for an audience and potential user base that is clearly not going to be as large as many others. At the end of the day, yes, they are a business, and that must be a part of their deliberations even if it doesn't feature in ours.

If the idea of ME2's FFtL campaign was to get Bioware to recognise that there was a market for s/s content, isn't there an obligation on the part of campaigners for s/s content to realise the true size of our market? I feel like we can't just ignore that in this discussion, even if it's being framed around the idea of fairness and equality.

I think equity and choice are paramount, and I don't see anything grievously wrong with DAI's approach to date.

I agree completely. I've been trying to find the words to make my point, but you said it best.

[TheJediSaint]

Oh right.  And a weight adjuster.  In fact, just bring in Dragon's Dogma character creator.

You hear that?  That's the sound of John Epler keening at the thought of trying to animate a infinite number of body types.

[HiroVoid]

Oh right.  And a weight adjuster.  In fact, just bring in Dragon's Dogma character creator.

And to add on, we could get our fat elf realized in game form.

 

[Basement Cat]

To clarify this, I mean equity as in fairness. I think the numbers can be fair without being equal.

DAO's shortcoming was that lesbian and gay players had only one option. That was unfair. I think Inquisition is being fairer by including a minimum of two.

I don't think the numbers have to be exactly the same for all orientations, races and genders to be fair, though. In fact, I'd be surprised if they were.

Clearly ten options for straight males and two options for gay ones is both unfair and unequal. I'd be the first person to jump on the barricades. But I just can't summon the motivation to get outraged because straight female dwarves get Solas and straight male characters might get one more option than everyone else.

Inquisition is already including two potential romances each for lesbian and gay Inquisitors, and they all look pretty great.

Elves.

 

Yeah, I'm pretty happy with the options I got myself (Sera and Josephine). Still, we'll see how DAI goes and if next time we'll get an even split.

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

Being a straight male I can honestly say I wouldn't care if Bioware made a game with no straight options at all, but then again all my canon PC's are gay females so I might not qualify for this particular convo lol 

[Icy Magebane]

Being a straight male I can honestly say I wouldn't care if Bioware made a game with no straight options at all, but then again all my canon PC's are gay females so I might not qualify for this particular convo lol 

Yeah, probably not... lol...

[TheJediSaint]

Being a straight male I can honestly say I wouldn't care if Bioware made a game with no straight options at all, but then again all my canon PC's are gay females so I might not qualify for this particular convo lol 

It does show that LGBT content is not just for LGBT people.  So there's that.

[AresKeith]

And to add on, we could get our fat elf realized in game form.

Fat? Elves?

Heresy

[TheJediSaint]

Fat? Elves?

Heresy

Someone has unrealistic expectations of what an elf should look like.