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[Nocte ad Mortem]

But on what basis are we saying that the number of straight and gay options must be equal, rather than fair?

I don't believe it can ever be one or the other. If Bioware truly can't sell a game with equal romance options, then I can sympathize with them making the decision, but that doesn't make it fair. I'm not necessarily saying they should tank their franchise, I understand if they pick the unfair option to keep working towards eventually getting there, but the option they chose is still unfair. Equality doesn't compromise for what you can get away with. That's not to say I believe Bioware is inherently homophobic/bigoted/etc for making the decision they made. In this scenario, they're doing all they can to work towards equality at a pace that they can maintain themselves at and it's understandable that they would. If that's actually the case.

 

I'm not sure I really buy the idea that people would have refused to buy the game if it were 2/2/2, or 2/4/2, or all bi again. DA2 sold enough copies to warrant a sequel, even with its many flaws outside the all bi system, so I'm a little shaky on how willing I am to think it's fact that they can't sell equality in this case. If they were to say that was their true concern and it's something they hope to correct as the audience climate changed, then it's something I could sympathize with. I understand that Bioware not being able to make games at all and offer us any content is not the preferable route. But it just hinges on this actually being the reason and being true.  

[Icy Magebane]

I'm far from an expert, but here's what I understand:

 

Bisexuality: sexual attraction to cisgender males and females

Pansexuality: sexual attraction to cisgender and transgender males and females

Demisexuality : no sexual attraction until a strong emotional bond is formed.

 

Again, I'm not an expert. Sorry if I got any of this wrong.

... this is pretty complicated... I'd never even heard of "demisexual" before.  Thanks for the Cliff's Notes.

[Basement Cat]

Pansexuality should fit other genders, etc. as well as far as I know since bisexuality/heterosexuality should fit with trangenders as well......again, as far as I know.

I forgot about ambiguous gender identity. 

Labels only go so far anyway. Oh well, I've dug this hole deep enough. Sorry if I've offended anyone.

[Samahl]

I forgot about ambiguous gender identity. 

I'm not sure the hetero/******/bi labels take transgenders into account... Labels only go so far anyway.

 

It does, because trans women are still women, and trans men are still men.

[Gwydden]

But on what basis are we saying that the number of straight and gay options must be equal, rather than fair?

The audience sizes clearly aren't the same, nor are the number of people who will actually use that content. I'm sorry if that sounds mercantile or too pragmatic, but surely those are the arguments the company would be using internally. Making a claim for equality on the grounds of historical inequality sounds like a good idea, except that it's impossible to make up the difference unless the ratio is wildly reversed for the next three or four games.

And how, realistically, are they supposed to make and market a AAA game with more gay/lesbian love interests than straight ones? Does anyone feel like pitching in $50 million or so to find out? What would the reaction be outside the tiny bubble that is the BSN? We saw how they treated the Dorian announcement, and that was one character.

I'm a gay player who's been arguing for s/s content in Bioware's games for years. But I think there are realities of the industry and of the audience that Bioware needs to work within. I don't see the logic of arguing for equality because fundamentally the market for s!s content is smaller than opposite-sex. They're equal in worth and standing, but that doesn't imply an equal amount of content.

This is what I tried to argue earlier. I'm not saying anyone has to like it, but the world does not always work how we want it to.

[raging_monkey]

I'm far from an expert, but here's what I understand: Bisexuality: sexual attraction to cisgender males and femalesPansexuality: sexual attraction to cisgender and transgender males and femalesDemisexuality : no sexual attraction until a strong emotional bond is formed. Again, I'm not an expert. Sorry if I got any of this wrong.

its the laymens version

[ElitePinecone]

I don't love that it's true, but I can sympathize a lot more with the idea that they're doing everything they think they can do for us without getting their franchise dropped than I can sympathize with the idea that "just writing the characters they want" results in less options for gay players literally every time.

For what it's worth, I've always thought this was true. They're doing the best they can given the circumstances, and of course they'll make mistakes - but this isn't an industry that was friendly to any LGBT content until extraordinarily recently, AND Bioware themselves are responsible for helping change a lot of that and normalise it, AND there's still a minority of hardcore players who still go batpoo insane whenever anyone so much as proposes a gay or lesbian character.

Can you see why it'd be hard to admit that commercial considerations are partly behind things like sexuality and romances? Gaming seems like a pretty risk averse business, especially at the AAA level.

[Ianamus]

The way I understand it bisexuality is attraction to both males and females, and pansexuality is attraction completely regardless of gender, which includes gender neutral or transgender people. 

[A Clever Name]

 

I'm far from an expert, but here's what I understand:

 

Bisexuality: sexual attraction to cisgender males and females

Pansexuality: sexual attraction to cisgender and transgender males and females

Demisexuality : no sexual attraction until a strong emotional bond is formed.

 

Again, I'm not an expert. Sorry if I got any of this wrong.

Demisexuality is considered to be on the asexuality scale by many people.  In addition asexuals may define themselves as aromantic, panromantic, biromantic, heteroromantic or homoromantic.  "Asexual" is a very broad term.  If you'd like to learn more, this is a great website.  I always point the curious in that direction, lots of great discussion there.  

[Basement Cat]

 

 

Demisexuality is considered to be on the asexuality scale by many people.  In addition asexuals may define themselves as aromantic, panromantic, biromantic, heteroromantic or homoromantic.  "Asexual" is a very broad term.  If you'd like to learn more, this is a great website.  I always point the curious in that direction, lots of great discussion there.  

 

Thanks! Yeah, it gets pretty complicated, but I'm always eager to learn more! Thanks again!

[HiroVoid]

It does, because trans women are still women, and trans men are still men.

I can see why someone might get confused since most explanations I found online include transexual on the list when describing how pansexual people are attracted to anyone regardless of gender.

 

I forgot about ambiguous gender identity. 

Labels only go so far anyway. Oh well, I've dug this hole deep enough. Sorry if I've offended anyone.

I can't be the one to be offended, so my words don't mean much, but I don't think you really have anything to be sorry for though its nice to know you care enough to put you're sorry if you offended anyone.  The only way people'll learn about all this stuff is to look it up on your own or ask questions to those who are more knowledgeable about it.  It only seems common sense people who are just learning about it would mess up on what exactly each sexuality/gender means.

[TheJediSaint]

I think Bioware's business strategy is to attract more women. Greater emphasis on attracting women will lead to more LGBT content. Or at least that's my .02.

[DeityDi]

Why haven't they thought about this earlier, they would've been billionaires by now.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

For what it's worth, I've always thought this was true. They're doing the best they can given the circumstances, and of course they'll make mistakes - but this isn't an industry that was friendly to any LGBT content until extraordinarily recently, AND Bioware themselves are responsible for helping change a lot of that and normalise it, AND there's still a minority of hardcore players who still go batpoo insane whenever anyone so much as proposes a gay or lesbian character.

Can you see why it'd be hard to admit that commercial considerations are partly behind things like sexuality and romances? Gaming seems like a pretty risk averse business, especially at the AAA level.

I can understand and relate to what you're saying. (And I would like your post, but I'm out.) The last thing I would want is for Bioware to lose money and lose the DA or ME franchise because they were trying too hard to support the LGBT community. I would feel awful for the people who put their necks on the line, obviously first and foremost, but beyond that, it wouldn't be a positive precedent for anyone else taking a risk on us in the near future, either. I do get it and I understand that Bioware's willingness has to balance against the general buying populace's willingness to keep the product afloat. 

 

I just do kind of wonder where the line is. Would Inquisition have been a hit with 2/2/2? Would it with 2/4/2? I guess we'll really need to wait for the final numbers to see what is actually being offered, since we have an LI out. I do think equality, and something like 2/4/2, would be easier for the general audience to accept than if there was an extra gay/lesbian option for each same-sex group, definitely. People care a lot more about losing than sharing. Maybe the general audience isn't ready for more LGB options than straight yet. I suppose they offered same-sex exclusives this time, maybe we can hope for them to try straight across equality next time. Baby steps, and that.  

[HiroVoid]

I doubt the GENERAL audience pays attention to that as much as those that frequent BSN/Tumblr/Neogaf/whatever other game place you can think of.

[Hadeedak]

True. My english could use some improvement on occasion.

 

I'd edit for shame, but I think I'll let it stand as "Kids, don't post while your brain's not on".

[JJDXB]

Because not all bisexual people like the same genders.

Sorry if this sounds ignorant, but isn't sexual orientation with respect to sex and not gender (it says so right in the name)?  I.e. no matter what, there's 0 chance I'm going to find a man in a woman's body physically attractive until/unless they go FtM.

 

EDIT: On topic, I'd really like it if Bioware for the next DA game had romances available to gay characters that didn't both have moustaches.  Specifically, the only ones who've been clean shaven are elves (Fenris and Zevran) and I'd like to see some more variety in facial hairstyles other than permastubble a la Alistair and Anders or moustaches.  Maybe a full, but trimmed beard *please please please*. 

 

Also, the straight men in the games up till now have been knights in shining armour and church chantry types, so maybe we could have someone young, hot, 'innocent' but gay next time? Just to subvert that trope?

[daveliam]

So apparently we're getting the information about the last LI "fairly soon" after PAX.  Do people think that we are going to get the last three pieces of the puzzle at the same time:  the last LI, that person's sexuality, and the last race-gated LI?

[Icy Magebane]

-snip-

The topic just got locked because of this discussion... it should probably be dropped or moved to the off-topic forum...

[Ianamus]

So apparently we're getting the information about the last LI "fairly soon" after PAX.  Do people think that we are going to get the last three pieces of the puzzle at the same time:  the last LI, that person's sexuality, and the last race-gated LI?

 

Ooh finally some good news!

 

Maybe that blog that would have revealed Solas will be released, and mentions the other LI's. 

[Icy Magebane]

So apparently we're getting the information about the last LI "fairly soon" after PAX.  Do people think that we are going to get the last three pieces of the puzzle at the same time:  the last LI, that person's sexuality, and the last race-gated LI?

I hope so... giving us incomplete information would simply be cruel, considering we know every detail of the known romances...

[90s Luke]

So apparently we're getting the information about the last LI "fairly soon" after PAX.  Do people think that we are going to get the last three pieces of the puzzle at the same time:  the last LI, that person's sexuality, and the last race-gated LI?

 

Hopefully. Bisexual, human-only Vivienne ftw!

[Nocte ad Mortem]

I think they'll tell us everything at once. I just can't see them stringing it along like this when everyone else is already out and they gave us everything about Solas when he leaked. I think that blog might tell us about both and they planned to release everything about both then.

[Nefla]

Hopefully. Bisexual, human-only Vivienne ftw!

Why human only?