74 réponses à ce sujet

[patrickgilln7]

I was discussing with my friends about the ending to Mass Effect 3 (yes, even after over two years) about the three main endings plus the refusal one and one of my mates keeps insisting that destroy is the right ending because of the indoctrination theory.

 

I also chose the destroy ending, but not because of some crazy theory based on a form of mind control that nobody but Bioware fully understands, but because I felt that it best fitted the main themes of Mass Effect. I also thought that it seemed morally right considering that the other two involved either becoming a god over all races or making all life the same for some reason or another (and yes I'm saying this knowing that I'm sacrificing a sentient species so that all species may survive).

 

So I was wondering if anyone chose the destroy ending because of the IT and therefore still believe it as fact, or made you're decision thinking that the IT is a load of BS.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

"Think, Shepard. Our species would have died long ago if we couldn't reproduce with our own kind." - Liara

"Yeah, the Turians tried that with us, too." - Shepard on having ones own species wiped out.

"He's just a big stupid jellyfish."

"Brain camp?" - asked of Kaidan by a biotic Shepard.

* kills Rachni Queen

"You're a killer. That's what killers do."

"A bullet in the head solves everything."

"Next time you commit a crime, don't write it down." to Pintey For

"You're a better criminal than, I, Commander." - Pitney For (hands Shepard 9000 CR bribe)

 

Me, as a player may be concerned with ethics, but I'm role playing, and this Shepard I do not believe would really be concerned with justifying any choice based on Indoctrination Theory. Her orders were to stop the reapers, and that order was clarified by Hackett - "He's wrong, Shepard. Dead Reapers is how we end this."

 

Think RP. "A bullet in the head solves everything." and "Dead Reapers is how we end this."

 

I know that now.

[DuskWanderer]

I didn't believe it. Then again, I didn't believe it when it came out. No need to chase the bad writing of the ending with bad writing from the fans. 

 

Pot to the kettle and all that. 

[patrickgilln7]

 

Think RP. "A bullet in the head solves everything." and "Dead Reapers is how we end this."

 

I forgot to mention that this is also the only ending where the reapers actually die which was what Shepard's objective since day 1 

[Mordokai]

I believe Bioware wasted a great opportunity by not addressing it in EC in some way and form.

 

It may have been a fanwank. But it was an interesting fanwank.

[q5tyhj]

I'd imagine the EC and Leviathon spelled the end of "indoctrination theory" in the minds of reasonable fans, but I wouldn't be surprised if some people still clung to it nonetheless. There are still people who disbelieve evolution, after all, so why wouldn't there be some people who still believe in IT?

[JasonShepard]

I forgot to mention that this is also the only ending where the reapers actually die which was what Shepard's objective since day 1 

 

Pretty sure Shepard's day 1 objective was to find out what Captain Anderson and Nihlus wanted to say in the Normandy SR1 meeting room... \Nitpicking

 

Never believed the Indoctrination Theory. What's presented is just too different from how indoctrination has previously been shown to work previously throughout the series - which means you have to invoke that it's 'special' indoctrination just to make it work. I can't swallow that. I can accept that there are some mild dreamlike indications throughout the ending, but there's nothing to indicate that Control and Synthesis are actually traps.

 

(Also, didn't we just have this thread? Like right here? Almost the same title even?)

[Excella Gionne]

Problem is, what happened to the Reapers? And, I chose CONTROL for MAXIMUM PARAGON! WOOT! No, seriously, I did choose Control...

[Excella Gionne]

Nothing after Eden Prime was real? Is that what is going on? Are you saying Shepard defeated them from Day 1? How does that even work? Are Drells real? 

[themikefest]

 

 

IT - no

green - no

blue - no

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Nothing after Eden Prime was real? Is that what is going on? Are you saying Shepard defeated them from Day 1? How does that even work? Are Drells real? 

 

Yes. Shepard defeated Sovereign, then mopped up the geth, then got zapped by that beacon. Nothing after Eden Prime is real.

 

[von uber]

I actually think that IT could have made a very interesting game in some form of it (and I believe Bioware thought so too initially). However, that is not the game we got.

[themikefest]

It happens before the beacon. Shepard is at a loss after seeing Jenkins get killed, that he/she imagined everything after his death. What needs to happen is for Kaidan to shake Shepard out of his/her trance and continue the mission.

[CaIIisto]

Didn't really buy into IT. Still don't. 

 

Still, another potential lifeboat further down the line if BW needed it. 

[Jayce]

Never believed the Indoctrination Theory. What's presented is just too different from how indoctrination has previously been shown to work previously throughout the series - which means you have to invoke that it's 'special' indoctrination just to make it work. I can't swallow that. I can accept that there are some mild dreamlike indications throughout the ending, but there's nothing to indicate that Control and Synthesis are actually traps.

 

Even though The Illusive Man and Saren were both advocating Synthesis and Control and both showed pretty blatant symptoms of indoctrination by the end?

 

I'm not an IT believer but I still think Control and Synthesis might prove to be the 'you fool!' options.

[Excella Gionne]

Yes. Shepard defeated Sovereign, then mopped up the geth, then got zapped by that beacon. Nothing after Eden Prime is real.

 

Those "X" on the quickslots. NOPE! NOPE! NOPE! NOPE!

[Teddie Sage]

I do for my main Shepard which is probably the only one I'll import into ME3.

[ZipZap2000]

Saren never advocated synthesis. He advocated serving the reapers and surrendering free will, essentially he wanted everyone to become husks.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 I remember seeing this commercial on TV once (it may have been SuperBowl Sunday, in fact) for some job-finder website. In it, you see this one (human) man working alongside a bunch of chimpanzees in an office, and the chimps are just doing everything the wrong way...

 

In the final scene of the ad, the one guy walks into a board meeting where the monkey head-honchos are celebrating, with a stand at the end of the table holding a graph of the company's sales with an arrow shooting sharply upwards. A little peeved, guy tells them to stop celebrating and turns the graph right-side-up to reveal that the company's sales haven't improved but that they're actually going down big time. The chimps all fall silent for a while, until the one nearest to the graph turns it upside-down again and they resume celebrating...

 

 

... That's IT, reveling in an imagined victory, won by taking all information that contradicts them and turning it upside down. Every Mass Effect publication since ME3 offers it no further legitimacy and even at times straight-up contradicts it (Leviathan DLC, for example), and yet its proponents take this non-evidence and flip it upside-down to maintain the self-induced hypnosis (the irony of which is off-the-charts).

 

The ending is reviled for having flaws, but IT offers no improvement, being as the player needs to reductio ad absurdem massive amounts of established canon in order for it to fit (at which point, it lies firmly in the realm of headcanon).

[JasonShepard]

Even though The Illusive Man and Saren were both advocating Synthesis and Control and both showed pretty blatant symptoms of indoctrination by the end?

 

I'm not an IT believer but I still think Control and Synthesis might prove to be the 'you fool!' options.

 

Thematically, I'd agree with you. Judged purely on theme, Synthesis and Control are 'obviously' the bad options. But judged logically? Sorry, nope. Can't see it.

 

The Illusive Man advocated destroying the Collectors. That didn't turn out so bad. He also advocated stopping the Reapers, improving humanity, and researching indoctrination - all of which had fairly beneficial results (though his methods were rather ... unethical).

 

Control in-and-of-itself is not a bad idea. But the Reapers used TIM's desire for control against him, such that he wouldn't ally with anyone who wanted anything else. That doesn't invalidate Control as a solution. Control's major downside is the placement of a huge amount of power in the hands of a single individual, who may or may not even be Shepard. And that's got nothing to do with indoctrination, nor anything to do with the fact that TIM advocated Control.

 

(I could make similar arguments for trusting Synthesis, but Control is my preferred ending, so I'm focusing on it.)

 

In any case: If Control or Synthesis might be a trick - how can we trust Destroy either?

[AlanC9]

Even though The Illusive Man and Saren were both advocating Synthesis and Control and both showed pretty blatant symptoms of indoctrination by the end?
 .

Isn't the bad guys being right all along just garden-variety irony?

[Mordokai]

Saren never advocated synthesis. He advocated serving the reapers and surrendering free will, essentially he wanted everyone to become husks.

 

 

By author unknown. If anybody knows them, let me know and credits will be given.

[Farangbaa]

I picked destroy yesterday because I got a tattoo.

[RiptideX1090]

Saren never advocated synthesis. He advocated serving the reapers and surrendering free will, essentially he wanted everyone to become husks.

 

"I am a vision of the future, Shepard! Machine and flesh, intertwined! The strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! Join Sovereign and experience a true rebirth!"

 

I don't think Saren could of advocated Synthesis any more unless he actually started screaming "Jump into the beam!"

[RiptideX1090]

Whether you want it to or not, I think it's fairly obvious the writers intended for each ending to be taken literally and seriously. Even though there is a mountain of reasons to suspect it might all be a dream, the fact of the matter is that what happens on the Citadel was not happening in Shepard's head. It happened. For real.

 

Personally, I liked the idea that all of Shepard's dreams throughout the game might of been Indoctrination induced, and that it was all leading up to something, but... no. It really was just all about that one kid who died. There isn't any deeper meaning because the writers didn't give it any deeper meaning, or if they were trying to, they flubbed it completely.

 

And it's just something people need to accept. I mean if they were really going to make Indoctrination Theory a thing, they probably would of acknowledged it in the EC. And they didn't.

 

Take it at face value. You'll live a healthier life that way.