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The Elder One (Spoilers)


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#1901
Dusksworn

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Well here's the thing. we probably aren't going to get some grand origin of the creators or the maker. 

 

The old gods will probably get something dark, like "we came from soot and ash, burning with the rage of the sun wanting nothing but destruction blah blah blah" 

 

But reason i think its Fen'Harel, is because we have seen stories where he put two people against each other so he can get the upper hand. and a story showing that he doesn't care when he completes the task, just that its completed.

 

We know he can work both sides like he did the Creators and the Forgotten Ones.

 

We know he had a mask (which could have been named after him or was actually his mask) which could tear holes in the fade.

 

Then we have felassan who gives so many stories to Briala about Fen'Harel and she finally follow Fen'Harel's plan of using two sides against each other, so of course Briala would remind Felassan of Fen'Harel. "She reminds me of..." i think its "you" and i think that you is Fen'Harel.

 

Again this is a much more summed up version of the theories i have refined in this thread.

I don't need any grand origin story, just a decent "anatomical" description.

 

I mean, are Old Gods just really smart Dragon Mages? Are they an advanced type of Abomination? Are they both? And if they're neither, what else is there for them to be?

 

All we know about are the physical entities of Thedas, the spiritual entities of the Fade, and combinations of the two. If other things exist, I would like to know something about them.



#1902
raging_monkey

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Actually i have many times given why i think Fen'Harel is the Elder One. i just don't feel like writing it out again. This is page 76. probably on at least 9 of the pages i point out things that give reason that it might be Fen'Harel. I have just wrote those reasons down so much i didn't want to rewrite something that people have already seen.  I mean i know for sure Monkey remembers our discussion on "creepy elf ****"

photographic memory if i see it remember it lol

So, you have any thoughts on what a "Fen'Harel" is? People aren't even certain what Old Gods are, except that they seem to be male High Dragons more intelligent than a Mabari and can cast spells of some sort. Grey Wardens have killed a bunch of these, and all we really know is that they can't possess things that already have souls. Or at least they can't do so readily. Also, Tainted ones are called Archdemons, despite possibly having nothing to do with actual Demons. Not to mention we don't even know what a Flemeth is, as Morrigan has said she's, "no blood mage, no abomination. She's not even truly human!" So. What does that even mean? EDIT:  I'll probably go back to refresh my memory on that, but right now "Fen'Harel" is just a name with a set of possibly true legends to it. I'm generally more interested in the "What" than the "Who". I know who Fen'Harel is, just as I know who Flemeth or the Old Gods are. What I really want to know is what they are.

well if your asking what i think he is, i think he's a old spirit that fequetly shifts between the spirit/demon cateorizations. Most is conjecture and random breaks genius. One theory is that fen'hareal is a world aspect neigher good nor evil, until possibly now. Same with flemeth they are both tricksters and have a affinity for elves(who would like elves so pretty). One popular theory is that flemeth and fen are the same. Personally im inclined to to beleve this. But honestly idk not know what they are respectively. But i will find out even if i must sunder the veil.

#1903
Kieran G.

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just thought i would say a new trailer came out at EGX its not on youtube yet. but i saw it on twitch. very beautiful shows some great visuals. but here are the two things i most noticed.

 

A Ferelden Frostback in the Fade or the weird Fade/Thedas world that Redcliffe is in.

 

And a very obvious pan to a wolf statue. The reason i point it out is because of our discussion. and to a conversation me and Monkey had about trying to find religious things within the trailers.



#1904
raging_monkey

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Interesting im on my phone so i must wait for yputube

#1905
myahele

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When you think of it the 7 Old Gods are also named after complex concepts as well: Beauty, Slavery, Silence, etc.

 

We know there are powerful spirits and demons that represent complex concepts like imshael the spirit of Choice.



#1906
raging_monkey

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Hmmm your on to somethin mya go into detail.. fascinating

#1907
TTTX

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But how did they talk to the magister? 

 

Better question. did the Old Gods talk Tevinter into destroying the Elven empire because they worshiped the creators? or they forgot them? 

Maybe Tevinter magisters sensed one of the old gods and managed to get into contact with him or maybe it was never the old gods they spoke to.

 

Maybe both or maybe they were pissed at the elves never tried to free them.



#1908
Kieran G.

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Maybe Tevinter magisters sensed one of the old gods and managed to get into contact with him or maybe it was never the old gods they spoke to.

 

Maybe both or maybe they were pissed at the elves never tried to free them.

Its really curious what kind of prison they might have been in. and if they aren't the Forgotten One's who imprisoned them? 

 

We have like 56 days until release? ugh :lol: 56 more days to go with unanswered questions.



#1909
Dusksworn

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Its really curious what kind of prison they might have been in. and if they aren't the Forgotten One's who imprisoned them? 

 

We have like 56 days until release? ugh :lol: 56 more days to go with unanswered questions.

Hehehe

 

You don't just think we're going to get nothing more than a whole slew of new unanswered questions?



#1910
TheEternalStudent

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Hehehe

 

You don't just think we're going to get nothing more than a whole slew of new unanswered questions?

Answer one question, leave you with two more.



#1911
TTTX

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Its really curious what kind of prison they might have been in. and if they aren't the Forgotten One's who imprisoned them? 

 

We have like 56 days until release? ugh :lol: 56 more days to go with unanswered questions.

Or years, there is no grantee we get all our answers in DA:I, considering they will make more DA games, possibly.



#1912
myahele

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From Skadi the evil elf:

 

http://forum.bioware...culation/page-4

 

This is a quite fun speculation thread.  :D  With that said, I'm sorry if I take it too far, and also sorry because I'm not as familiarized with the lore of the game as would perhaps be desirable for such a thread.  :P

One thing comes to mind though, and it's the way Dragons  (ADs or not) seem to communicate with other beings. I remember there was a codex entry mentioning it, the fact that Dragons don't have any detectable communication with other beings, but seem to communicate, somehow, in a psychic fashion, through their minds and into the minds of their "intelocutors".

That "ability" clearly seems to serve for more than communication purposes, though. It seems to allow for dragons to slowly take control over the minds they link themselves with, not in a direct "puppeting" manner but rather by allowing them to shape their "listeners" decisions, behavior, actions... Even when (and perhaps essentially when) they're unaware of it. In other words, this draconic telepathic power goes beyond communication, goes beyond even mere control of one's body: it also shapes the very psyche of its "victims".  Maybe I should rephrase it: the way it's done, it seems that the dragons communicate on a subconscious level. They don't send clear, direct messages or orders, but they make their victims know deep inside what they want. It's through the shaping of the subconscious that they not only communicate with, but also control others' minds. Not something entirely different from the "indoctrination" of the Reapers from ME, in a way of speaking. Maybe this very mind-power is the source and origin of blood magic itself.

And there's one important thing: the Andraste Ashes quest seems to hint that not only darkspawn can be victim of a Dragon's mind-influence, but perfectly normal humans as well. (Okay, not entirely normal, but you get my point.  :P). The quest seems to hint at, IMO, the fact that when it suits Dragons, they decide to communicate with humans, through their own means, in order to reach their ends.

Still in the same quest, another thing is hinted at: Dragons - High Dragons, at least - take interest in religion. The HD in the quest seems to create a cult of his own, and get them to try to get Andraste ashes. For some reason, it seems Dragons seek to be worshipped and have a sort of fascination with religion in general.

So with all of this in mind, it seems to make perfect sense that the Tevinter Empire and the darkspawn have similar symbols, whether you take them to be a crescent moon, horns, wings or all of this together. (Theare symbols, after all.  :P) If the OGs shape the minds of their "worshippers", and if they really take interest in stabilishing by themselves their religion and their place as gods, it would make sense that they implanted somehow into their followers the symbol they wanted to represent their religion, and made them spread this symbol in a number of ways.  In a nutshell: it's the same symbols because it's the same religion, with the same "Gods" ruling over it and having their followers spread the same symbols.

It goes even further, though. If the darkspawn are truly Tevinter mages who got corrupted once they entered the Golden City, then there aren't truly two different followers of the  OGs: there is only, indeed the very same followers, which got transformed into tainted creatures (which, IMO, makes more sense). if that is the case,  what if the OGs planned the corruption of their followers from the very beggining? Think about it: the only way they were actually released from their cages (the ones who did, so far) were through the darkspawn listening to their song and following it to their cages. The wikia says that, according to the Chantry, the OGs first contacted the Tevinter magisters in order to get their help to be freed from their prisons: in order to achieve such, the Magisters would've tried to take over the Maker's throne, and failed. But what if everything went according to the OGs plan? What if they suggested and ultimately lead the magisters to enter the Golden City, because they knew this somehow would create a link between them and  their followers which would allow for their release? Even more, what if they knew their followers would bring a "gift" from the Golden City which would raise even further their powers? (Not sure it does that, actually, but just to think about the possibility)

Also, one last point to make: dragons, it seems, are far from being rare in Thedas. Furthermore, they all seem to be fascinated for religions and seek to be worshipped in some fashion. The Old Gods themselves were worshipped not only by the Tevinter empire, but also by other thedosians. Why assume they were the only dragons that were worshipped, though? Considering what we know so far about dragons, it's reasonable to expect that other dragons founded other religions as well - and perhaps, the conflicts depicted between the gods of one religion and another were conflicts between dragons. (why should we assume, after all, that the dragons, from all of the races, would be the only one fully united and peaceful between themselves?) It would account for the symbolic similarity between different and antagonizing religions, since the dragons would always desire the symbol of their religions to be reminiscent of their form, of what they represent as dragons. It may be that what we see in the Andraste Ashes quest is a "culture in extinction" - and maybe in extinction only within certain limits, such as Ferelden: dragons trying to found their own religion. What if in other parts of Thedas this is still a common, not to say predominant culture?

So what would be the difference between (High) Dragons and OGs? My guess is, like someone already said, that the OGs are the first abominations. But they're not humans or other race that shapeshifted themselves as dragons once they became abominations: they were dragons from the very start. As far as I remember, the codex entry in which the creation of the Maker's creatures is narrated doesn't say that, after the spirits, came immediately the humans or any other similar, humanoid race; it might be that the first "material" beings brought to existence were Dragons. Which would explain their arrogance, their wish to be worshipped by other beings, perhaps even the fact that their way to communicate is more akin to the way of the spirits than the way of other sentient material beings, since they are closer to spirits than other material beings. Even from a non-religious point of view, if the Dragons are the oldest sentient species alive, it'd make sense that the most intelligent ones (the High Dragons) would seek to be worshipped by the others and take themselves as gods. The OGs, in this case, would just be HDs that went too far in their quest for power and dominance, weaving their magics to a point that a demon finally managed to take over them. They are set on ruling the world: and maybe it's the very same plan that's been in motion from the Tevinter Empire to the creation of the darkspawn and the beggining of the Blights - which are, perhaps, to the eyes of the OGs and even the darkspawn, Holy Crusades rather than Blights.

They don't want only to rule the world, though. They want to be its very Gods. And thus they want their symbols to be spread by their followers. More than spread: they want it to be imprinted in each and every thedonian mind. Rule not only the body, but the soul. The psyche of the darkspawn is what it is because the OGs shaped it the way they wanted: and that's what they want to do with as many as they can, because they want followers (yet another reason for having the darkspawn capture, instead of killing their enemies) rather than bodies. 



Of course, all of this is wild speculation and, yet again, I should advise my knowledge of the lore of the world is flawed (so I'm sorry if I made any mistake in this respect)... So let's not forget it's just an opinion, or rather, a guessing, which can be fully criticized and brought into ruins.  :P Also, I'm sorry if I inadvertedly said anything that is too common-place - again, I don't have a full grasp of DA:O's lore.  :pinched: 



#1913
Kieran G.

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Or years, there is no grantee we get all our answers in DA:I, considering they will make more DA games, possibly.

Oh i know. i'm talking about the elder one. not every answer. haha.



#1914
Dusksworn

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From Skadi the evil elf:

*WORDS*

Weren't we told that Dragons are no smarter than a Mabari?

 

People might just worship them for the reasons that they're big, powerful, and breathe fire. Some people are easily impressed.

 

Also, their Blood is apparently quite powerful and useful in Blood Magic?



#1915
TTTX

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Weren't we told that Dragons are no smarter than a Mabari?

 

People might just worship them for the reasons that they're big, powerful, and breathe fire. Some people are easily impressed.

 

Also, their Blood is apparently quite powerful and useful in Blood Magic?

Yep, David was the one who said the are no smarter then a Mabari, but let's be fair a Mabari can be pretty smart even smarter then some humans.

 

Yeah that's true, Dragon blood is special in many ways.



#1916
Kieran G.

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Weren't we told that Dragons are no smarter than a Mabari?

 

People might just worship them for the reasons that they're big, powerful, and breathe fire. Some people are easily impressed.

 

Also, their Blood is apparently quite powerful and useful in Blood Magic?

yeah we saw that in Dawn of The Seeker and Origins.

 

What i'm curious is if they have the mind of the Mabari what's happening here.

tumblr_naqnkprc7o1sgd3tso1_500.gif

 

and the concept art seems like he is training it.

Spoiler



#1917
TTTX

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Not mention we have seen that Dragon save the Inquisitor, I get the feeling it will have a role in DA:I and important one at that.



#1918
Killdren88

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Not mention we have seen that Dragon save the Inquisitor, I get the feeling it will have a role in DA:I and important one at that.

 

Either that Or Flemeth decides to throw her lot in with us and takes on the Dragon for us.



#1919
raging_monkey

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Either that Or Flemeth decides to throw her lot in with us and takes on the Dragon for us.

or we merge and go all DBZ lol(nerd joke)

From Skadi the evil elf: http://forum.bioware...culation/page-4 This is a quite fun speculation thread.  :D  With that said, I'm sorry if I take it too far, and also sorry because I'm not as familiarized with the lore of the game as would perhaps be desirable for such a thread.  :POne thing comes to mind though, and it's the way Dragons  (ADs or not) seem to communicate with other beings. I remember there was a codex entry mentioning it, the fact that Dragons don't have any detectable communication with other beings, but seem to communicate, somehow, in a psychic fashion, through their minds and into the minds of their "intelocutors".That "ability" clearly seems to serve for more than communication purposes, though. It seems to allow for dragons to slowly take control over the minds they link themselves with, not in a direct "puppeting" manner but rather by allowing them to shape their "listeners" decisions, behavior, actions... Even when (and perhaps essentially when) they're unaware of it. In other words, this draconic telepathic power goes beyond communication, goes beyond even mere control of one's body: it also shapes the very psyche of its "victims".  Maybe I should rephrase it: the way it's done, it seems that the dragons communicate on a subconscious level. They don't send clear, direct messages or orders, but they make their victims know deep inside what they want. It's through the shaping of the subconscious that they not only communicate with, but also control others' minds. Not something entirely different from the "indoctrination" of the Reapers from ME, in a way of speaking. Maybe this very mind-power is the source and origin of blood magic itself.And there's one important thing: the Andraste Ashes quest seems to hint that not only darkspawn can be victim of a Dragon's mind-influence, but perfectly normal humans as well. (Okay, not entirely normal, but you get my point.  :P). The quest seems to hint at, IMO, the fact that when it suits Dragons, they decide to communicate with humans, through their own means, in order to reach their ends.Still in the same quest, another thing is hinted at: Dragons - High Dragons, at least - take interest in religion. The HD in the quest seems to create a cult of his own, and get them to try to get Andraste ashes. For some reason, it seems Dragons seek to be worshipped and have a sort of fascination with religion in general.So with all of this in mind, it seems to make perfect sense that the Tevinter Empire and the darkspawn have similar symbols, whether you take them to be a crescent moon, horns, wings or all of this together. (Theare symbols, after all.  :P) If the OGs shape the minds of their "worshippers", and if they really take interest in stabilishing by themselves their religion and their place as gods, it would make sense that they implanted somehow into their followers the symbol they wanted to represent their religion, and made them spread this symbol in a number of ways.  In a nutshell: it's the same symbols because it's the same religion, with the same "Gods" ruling over it and having their followers spread the same symbols.It goes even further, though. If the darkspawn are truly Tevinter mages who got corrupted once they entered the Golden City, then there aren't truly two different followers of the  OGs: there is only, indeed the very same followers, which got transformed into tainted creatures (which, IMO, makes more sense). if that is the case,  what if the OGs planned the corruption of their followers from the very beggining? Think about it: the only way they were actually released from their cages (the ones who did, so far) were through the darkspawn listening to their song and following it to their cages. The wikia says that, according to the Chantry, the OGs first contacted the Tevinter magisters in order to get their help to be freed from their prisons: in order to achieve such, the Magisters would've tried to take over the Maker's throne, and failed. But what if everything went according to the OGs plan? What if they suggested and ultimately lead the magisters to enter the Golden City, because they knew this somehow would create a link between them and  their followers which would allow for their release? Even more, what if they knew their followers would bring a "gift" from the Golden City which would raise even further their powers? (Not sure it does that, actually, but just to think about the possibility)Also, one last point to make: dragons, it seems, are far from being rare in Thedas. Furthermore, they all seem to be fascinated for religions and seek to be worshipped in some fashion. The Old Gods themselves were worshipped not only by the Tevinter empire, but also by other thedosians. Why assume they were the only dragons that were worshipped, though? Considering what we know so far about dragons, it's reasonable to expect that other dragons founded other religions as well - and perhaps, the conflicts depicted between the gods of one religion and another were conflicts between dragons. (why should we assume, after all, that the dragons, from all of the races, would be the only one fully united and peaceful between themselves?) It would account for the symbolic similarity between different and antagonizing religions, since the dragons would always desire the symbol of their religions to be reminiscent of their form, of what they represent as dragons. It may be that what we see in the Andraste Ashes quest is a "culture in extinction" - and maybe in extinction only within certain limits, such as Ferelden: dragons trying to found their own religion. What if in other parts of Thedas this is still a common, not to say predominant culture?So what would be the difference between (High) Dragons and OGs? My guess is, like someone already said, that the OGs are the first abominations. But they're not humans or other race that shapeshifted themselves as dragons once they became abominations: they were dragons from the very start. As far as I remember, the codex entry in which the creation of the Maker's creatures is narrated doesn't say that, after the spirits, came immediately the humans or any other similar, humanoid race; it might be that the first "material" beings brought to existence were Dragons. Which would explain their arrogance, their wish to be worshipped by other beings, perhaps even the fact that their way to communicate is more akin to the way of the spirits than the way of other sentient material beings, since they are closer to spirits than other material beings. Even from a non-religious point of view, if the Dragons are the oldest sentient species alive, it'd make sense that the most intelligent ones (the High Dragons) would seek to be worshipped by the others and take themselves as gods. The OGs, in this case, would just be HDs that went too far in their quest for power and dominance, weaving their magics to a point that a demon finally managed to take over them. They are set on ruling the world: and maybe it's the very same plan that's been in motion from the Tevinter Empire to the creation of the darkspawn and the beggining of the Blights - which are, perhaps, to the eyes of the OGs and even the darkspawn, Holy Crusades rather than Blights.They don't want only to rule the world, though. They want to be its very Gods. And thus they want their symbols to be spread by their followers. More than spread: they want it to be imprinted in each and every thedonian mind. Rule not only the body, but the soul. The psyche of the darkspawn is what it is because the OGs shaped it the way they wanted: and that's what they want to do with as many as they can, because they want followers (yet another reason for having the darkspawn capture, instead of killing their enemies) rather than bodies. Of course, all of this is wild speculation and, yet again, I should advise my knowledge of the lore of the world is flawed (so I'm sorry if I made any mistake in this respect)... So let's not forget it's just an opinion, or rather, a guessing, which can be fully criticized and brought into ruins.  :P Also, I'm sorry if I inadvertedly said anything that is too common-place - again, I don't have a full grasp of DA:O's lore.  :pinched: 

hmm an interesting view

#1920
TTTX

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Either that Or Flemeth decides to throw her lot in with us and takes on the Dragon for us.

that's not her dragon form though.



#1921
raging_monkey

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New engine= nrw desingns sometimes

#1922
Kieran G.

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New engine= nrw desingns sometimes

I'm guessing they are going to keep her design since it was very well received. it will just be in the new engine but probably built like a replica. since this is a whole new engine and lets hope they don't do whatever they did in DA2 to alistair and Zevran.



#1923
Killdren88

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that's not her dragon form though.

 

Different Engine different style. So it is possible.



#1924
raging_monkey

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I like DA2art model for everybody lol shame i know :)*Readies pryre to be tossed into it*

#1925
Kieran G.

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I like DA2art model for everybody lol shame i know :)*Readies pryre to be tossed into it*

Really it was only Zevran and Alistair who looked way different. Leliana looked a bit different and kinda looked soulless at the end of the game.

 

But otherwise the art style was much better in DA2. 

 

except for all the elves who weren't important characters, like isn't weird how much better Fenris and Merril look compared to the rest of the elves in the city?