Argh! You make some good points there Kieran
I know. it does kinda suck. i mean my righteous playthrough will be the better for it. But i was kinda hoping it was just some spirit, maybe an Elven one. But the true Andraste as a spirit isn't all that bad. it's just the Chantry's andraste which is the one i wouldn't want.
So, I've been reading through most of this thread and loving it so many cool theories. Recently I replayed DA2 b/c my main save file was corrupted
so I felt like I should replay it before DAI came out and I was talking with Merril when she tells the story of the Creators and Forgotten Ones were sealed away and I thought this was interesting.
In the story Fen'heral (spelling?) tells both sides that the other has crafted a weapon which will end the eternal war in their favor. Each side than goes to the other's realm and then they are imprisoned. So I'm thinking that the Creators are actually imprisoned in the Abyss and the Forgotten Ones are imprisoned in the Eternal City. If this is true than it would create a whole host of knew possibilities to the theory that the Eternal City and Golden City are one in the same. This could also explain why the Golden City was black when the magisters arrived b/c the Forgotten Ones had blackened it with their presence.
My theory is:
1. We know from the lore that the Forgotten Ones spoke in dreams
2. The magisters where contacted in their dreams and learned of blood magic from the Forgotten Ones
3. The Forgotten Ones tricked them into entering the Golden City to release them from the Golden City, but this didn't quite work out as planned. They were still trapped. Maybe because there was a safety measure, but it did weaken the prison.
4. Their interaction with the Forgotten Ones tainted them allowing the Forgotten Ones to send a piece of themselves to the physical realm.
5. The city turning black on the outside is a sign of the prison weakening of some sort. Their influence is spread to the outside not just contained within.
6. This taint is not control over the magisters or over the darkspawn but instead a manifestation of their hate and desire for destruction.
7. The darkspawn are drawn to the "Old Gods" because they seek to corrupt and spread their hate to the Forgotten Ones old enemies, but this is not done at the direction of the Forgotten Ones. It is a hold over from the taint.
8.. The spirits fear the Black City because the Forgotten Ones are alien and powerful therefore they are feared.
9. The only evidence that the archdemons are the Tevintor old Gods is the Chantry, there is no direct evidence that they are. History could have gotten it wrong.
10. The Elder One is one of the Forgotten Ones is kind of what I'm saying.
A lot of in this thread switch that one around a bit, believing that the Old Gods and Forgotten One's are the same since in the lore the Old Gods gave the Magisters the power to Kill arlathans which at the time still prayed to the creators. and the fact that with abyss you can infer that means Underground. which makes us again believe they are the same.
And in the Lore the Creators lived in the Eternal city/Heaven so when the legend says "nd they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens while he arranged a truce" means the Creators stayed in the Eternal City at the time he locked them up.
I'm not saying your theory is wrong, i just want to see how you defend against these differing opinions to explain why your theory might be true.
Also you spell Fen"Harel. you just needed to switch the A and E. Also just because I'm a dread wolf fanboy and think he is the Elder One. you should look at all the Wolf statues shown in the trailers and such. and considering how much Fen'Harel is mention in TME, and DA2 and with the fact in DA redemption they showed The Mask of Fen'Harel which could tear the Veil.
A lot of in this thread switch that one around a bit, believing that the Old Gods and Forgotten One's are the same since in the lore the Old Gods gave the Magisters the power to Kill arlathans which at the time still prayed to the creators. and the fact that with abyss you can infer that means Underground. which makes us again believe they are the same.
And in the Lore the Creators lived in the Eternal city/Heaven so when the legend says "nd they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens while he arranged a truce" means the Creators stayed in the Eternal City at the time he locked them up.
I'm not saying your theory is wrong, i just want to see how you defend against these differing opinions to explain why your theory might be true.
Also you spell Fen"Harel. you just needed to switch the A and E. Also just because I'm a dread wolf fanboy and think he is the Elder One. you should look at all the Wolf statues shown in the trailers and such. and considering how much Fen'Harel is mention in TME, and DA2 and with the fact in DA redemption they showed The Mask of Fen'Harel which could tear the Veil.
Yeah, it was actually reading a lot of the posts that got me to thinking and I remembered the story from Merril in DA2. Maybe she was wrong, but maybe not.
It is true that the legend says there was a truce, but the elves lost everything when they were enslaved. It could very well be that they remembered it wrong or just like legends in real life it changes with the telling and possibly there is more than one legend of what happened. There are often multiple legends about the same thing and each has an element of truth.
Also I can see why there would be a connection between Underground and the Abyss. And I do think that what the Tevinters worshiped was the Forgotten Ones. I just think that history got it wrong where their gods were imprisoned. Instead of the Old Gods being the archdemons that became corrupted it was instead the other Old Gods that were imprisoned in the Fade. This would still work with the Old Gods giving them blood magic to destroy the elves because the elves worshiped their archenemy the Creators. The mythos doesn't really change much in that respect, but only the location.
Oh, and while I didn't mention it in my first post I totally think Fen'Harel has a part to play in all this. After all he was the one that imprisoned them so he would totally have an interest in that prison being broken. Just what part he plays in all of it though I don't know. But yeah, totally going to be involved some how. (At least if this is even partly true 
which who knows I may be wrong). I don't think he is the elder one because while Fen'Harel is a lot of things I don't think he is the personification of arrogance.
Fen'Harel does have the power to tear the Veil, but he has been free the entire time. Why now? And if he has this power who is to say that one of the other gods couldn't learn how to do it. While it may be an inherent talent of Fen'Harel to tear the Veil, it could be something that one of the Forgotten Ones could learn. But because it is not something that comes naturally to them this would account for the violence of the tear since it isn't something they have done before. This could also explain why it took so long to act.
Fen'Harel does have the power to tear the Veil, but he has been free the entire time. Why now? And if he has this power who is to say that one of the other gods couldn't learn how to do it. While it may be an inherent talent of Fen'Harel to tear the Veil, it could be something that one of the Forgotten Ones could learn. But because it is not something that comes naturally to them this would account for the violence of the tear since it isn't something they have done before. This could also explain why it took so long to act.
Why now is a question a lot of us ask when ever we hear a theory. and has Fen'Harel ever given a reason why he does anything. he is a trickster, a manipulator. one minute will save your village the next let it burn to the ground.
And i don't know if you read TME but during it a story is told of Fen'Harel being captured and then pitting two gods against eachother and telling them where their weaknesses are or distracting them so once they are down he can gain the upper hand. which is exactly what is happening with the Templars Mages. and the Orlesian civil war.
I'm willing to bet the reason they have been so sketchy about our Warden in the game is that Cory got his hands on them and we are forced to kill them.
Warden won't appear in game that has been confirmed.
Why now is a question a lot of us ask when ever we hear a theory. and has Fen'Harel ever given a reason why he does anything. he is a trickster, a manipulator. one minute will save your village the next let it burn to the ground.
And i don't know if you read TME but during it a story is told of Fen'Harel being captured and then pitting two gods against eachother and telling them where their weaknesses are or distracting them so once they are down he can gain the upper hand. which is exactly what is happening with the Templars Mages. and the Orlesian civil war.
The why really is the million dollar question and probably won't be answered until the game comes out.
I didn't read TME but I do know the story. While causing chaos because he can does sound like something he would do how the Elder One is being shown by the devs as pure arrogance doesn't really sound like Fen'Harel. It still could be, but the whole bow down before your God and the Maker isn't real thing kind of makes me lean more towards one of the Forgotten Ones because they once were worshiped as Gods. Plus he sounds royally pissed which if he was imprisoned for eons would definitely cause a self proclaimed god to be.
Fen'Harel is a trickster who always turns the situation to their advantage and if I'm remembering correctly Fen'Harel is said to patrol the Veil to insure that the two sides stay imprisoned. If he isn't the Elder One it is very possible he might help us because the Forgotten Ones getting out would be very bad for him since he was the one that imprisoned them. They are probably kind of mad about that. So either way I really do think Fen'Harel has a huge role to play.
And why is that?
Because his known followers (the Venatori) all seem to be Tevinters, so it would make sense that he is also from Tevinter, and since he is called the Elder One, I assume that he is really old, he is also mentioned to be beyond arrogant and since he is the main antagonist, he is obviosly very powerful as well, so him being one of the Tevinter magisters who entered the Golden City is the only possibility that makes sense to me at this moment in time.
The why really is the million dollar question and probably won't be answered until the game comes out.
I didn't read TME but I do know the story. While causing chaos because he can does sound like something he would do how the Elder One is being shown by the devs as pure arrogance doesn't really sound like Fen'Harel. It still could be, but the whole bow down before your God and the Maker isn't real thing kind of makes me lean more towards one of the Forgotten Ones because they once were worshiped as Gods. Plus he sounds royally pissed which if he was imprisoned for eons would definitely cause a self proclaimed god to be.
Fen'Harel is a trickster who always turns the situation to their advantage and if I'm remembering correctly Fen'Harel is said to patrol the Veil to insure that the two sides stay imprisoned. If he isn't the Elder One it is very possible he might help us because the Forgotten Ones getting out would be very bad for him since he was the one that imprisoned them. They are probably kind of mad about that. So either way I really do think Fen'Harel has a huge role to play.
Huh? You mean seperated not imprisoned?
Also if anyone is Fen Harel its Flemeth. The elder one was according to Bioware "Arrogance"; that was his strongest definition. If the Elder one was Fen Harel - it wouldve been Cunning, not Arrogance.
So, I've been reading through most of this thread and loving it so many cool theories. Recently I replayed DA2 b/c my main save file was corrupted
In the story Fen'heral (spelling?) tells both sides that the other has crafted a weapon which will end the eternal war in their favor. Each side than goes to the other's realm and then they are imprisoned. So I'm thinking that the Creators are actually imprisoned in the Abyss and the Forgotten Ones are imprisoned in the Eternal City. If this is true than it would create a whole host of knew possibilities to the theory that the Eternal City and Golden City are one in the same. This could also explain why the Golden City was black when the magisters arrived b/c the Forgotten Ones had blackened it with their presence.
My theory is:
1. We know from the lore that the Forgotten Ones spoke in dreams
2. The magisters where contacted in their dreams and learned of blood magic from the Forgotten Ones
3. The Forgotten Ones tricked them into entering the Golden City to release them from the Golden City, but this didn't quite work out as planned. They were still trapped. Maybe because there was a safety measure, but it did weaken the prison.
4. Their interaction with the Forgotten Ones tainted them allowing the Forgotten Ones to send a piece of themselves to the physical realm.
5. The city turning black on the outside is a sign of the prison weakening of some sort. Their influence is spread to the outside not just contained within.
6. This taint is not control over the magisters or over the darkspawn but instead a manifestation of their hate and desire for destruction.
7. The darkspawn are drawn to the "Old Gods" because they seek to corrupt and spread their hate to the Forgotten Ones old enemies, but this is not done at the direction of the Forgotten Ones. It is a hold over from the taint.
8.
. The spirits fear the Black City because the Forgotten Ones are alien and powerful therefore they are feared.
Actually I just went an looked up the converstation with Merril and she does say the Creators are in the heavens and the Forgotten Ones are in the Abyss. But I still like my theory and it is possible that they Dalish remember it wrong. Since they lost everything and for the time that they were slaves all they had was oral tradition it is very possible that things were mixed up. Think of it like a giant game of telephone where "i like pie" turn into "purple monkey's can fly"
. So much of the ancient history has been lost or been changed it is possible that somethings are remembered incorrectly.
Huh? You mean seperated not imprisoned?
Also if anyone is Fen Harel its Flemeth. The elder one was according to Bioware "Arrogance"; that was his strongest definition. If the Elder one was Fen Harel - it wouldve been Cunning, not Arrogance.
I actually don't remember why he patrols only that he does
But actually if you look to my original theory I agree with you. I don't think Fen'Harel is the Elder One for exactly the reason you state. That he doesn't strike me as the living personification of arrogance. Last night Kieran and I were discussing it. Personally I do think Fen'Harel has a part to play. While he likes to cause trouble he needs a functioning world to do it, so it probably isn't in his best interest for the Elder One to win.
Flemeth as Fen'Harel has been put out there before and it has valid points, but we know so little about either one. I'm really hoping this game answers some of these questions. Both DA:O and DA2 hinted at deeper secrets without telling us anything. It is time some of them are answered.
Oh, but the answer better not be in some last minute exposition done by a glowing being that descended or takes us up to the heavens. I personally think a lot of this should be done throughout the game and give little hints. Maybe the collectibles that you can have your people in Skyhold research (think this was confirmed by the devs) which will reveal more about who these beings are and what they want. I want to be given little clues throughout the game and be rewarded for exploring by finally being able to put the pieces together myself and not have it handed to be by glowy thingy.
Because his known followers (the Venatori) all seem to be Tevinters, so it would make sense that he is also from Tevinter, and since he is called the Elder One, I assume that he is really old, he is also mentioned to be beyond arrogant and since he is the main antagonist, he is obviosly very powerful as well, so him being one of the Tevinter magisters who entered the Golden City is the only possibility that makes sense to me at this moment in time.
Can tevinter cults only worship things from tevinter?
Do you have to be tevinter to be arrogant?
Better question why now?
so for context real fast, the magisters who originally opened a tear so they could enter the Golden city had to use 2/3 of the lyrium in the empire and hundreds of servants to make enough power to open the tear. so how would a seemingly tainted magister gain enough power to do such a thing?
Why would a Magister turn on his fellow Tevinter who are working with him?
See i'm biased, i really wish to see Fen'Harel so when i'm presenting a theory i have to think. Do i actually think its true, or do I just really want to see this in the game. so that's what i'm asking, with all the hints the Dev's have given us, in the books, the games, the movies. do you want to see a tevinter magister, or do you actually think the Elder One is one.
Flemeth as Fen'Harel has been put out there before and it has valid points, but we know so little about either one. I'm really hoping this game answers some of these questions. Both DA:O and DA2 hinted at deeper secrets without telling us anything. It is time some of them are answered.
Actually i think Flemeth is or is possessed by The Formless One.
I am starting to think The Elder One is Dumat.
I am starting to think The Elder One is Dumat.
Why?
If reincarnation is possible then who knows if Dumat and the other Old Gods reincarnated into a purified form? Hope its not true.
Anyways, Elves and Qunari seem to believe that the Fade is the land of the dead. We also know that souls remains in the veil (who knows how long) until they "cross over". I wonder is there like a sea of consciousness where all souls come from and go to? Do they become lyrium?
According to Elven lore Fen'Harel stalks the Fade and eat souls. According to Justice these souls go beyond a place he knows. And a demon says there is no maker. We'll probably never know if the Maker exist since the devs says so.
Due to the age of Elven civilization and pre Andraste Tevinter I tend to believe them more in regards to creation theories
If reincarnation is possible then who knows if Dumat and the other Old Gods reincarnated into a purified form? Hope its not true.
Anyways, Elves and Qunari seem to believe that the Fade is the land of the dead. We also know that souls remains in the veil (who knows how long) until they "cross over". I wonder is there like a sea of consciousness where all souls come from and go to? Do they become lyrium?
According to Elven lore Fen'Harel stalks the Fade and eat souls. According to Justice these souls go beyond a place he knows. And a demon says there is no maker. We'll probably never know if the Maker exist since the devs says so.
Due to the age of Elven civilization and pre Andraste Tevinter I tend to believe them more in regards to creation theories
I agree. some spirit might have not created the fade or Thedas. but someone defiantly put the Veil between both realms. and thats probably who ever the Maker/Creator is.
I agree. some spirit might have not created the fade or Thedas. but someone defiantly put the Veil between both realms. and thats probably who ever the Maker/Creator is.
And her is a new theory, at least I think it's new.
The Elder One originally lived where the world of Thedas is now and this blasted Veil is in his way to reclaim what was once his.
And her is a new theory, at least I think it's new.
The Elder One originally lived where the world of Thedas is now and this blasted Veil is in his way to reclaim what was once his.
Yeah. it would also explain why he has opened the breach to swallow the world. he wants it to be how it once was.
Thinking about it maybe Fen'Harel is actually an ally. maybe he was the one who put the veil up to separate the creators and the forgotten one's.
"and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted him also when he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if only the Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They trusted Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And FenHarel sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People."
I mean its a stretch since "walk among the people" again makes me think of a more literal prison like the Black City and the Old Gods prison but still its an idea.
if he is an ally, big if...having him on ourside is a boon aswell a poison how far will he help til he deciedes to even things outYeah. it would also explain why he has opened the breach to swallow the world. he wants it to be how it once was.
Thinking about it maybe Fen'Harel is actually an ally. maybe he was the one who put the veil up to separate the creators and the forgotten one's.
"and they trusted him when he said that they must keep to the heavens while he arranged a truce. And the Forgotten Ones trusted him also when he said he would arrange for the defeat of our gods, if only the Forgotten Ones would return to the abyss for a time. They trusted Fen'Harel, and they were all of them betrayed. And FenHarel sealed them away so they could never again walk among the People."
I mean its a stretch since "walk among the people" again makes me think of a more literal prison like the Black City and the Old Gods prison but still its an idea.
The more I think about it the more its looking like Fen'harel is more or less pro-people. In other words, it doesn't seem he wants to rule of people (elves, dwarves, humans, etc) He seems to enjoy freedom and uncertainy/ unpredictability but if people are ruled by these gods then what kind of world is that?
Elven gods are exactly benevolent goody two shoes since there's a myth about them trying to kill each other. By imprisoning these 2 sets of gods the world is free to follow their own path and not be constricted by the rules of these gods.
I also wonder if the Golden/Black/Eternal City was created when thedas and the Fade was one? Just like the real world it is solid and never changing, but resides in the fade
Guest_Act of Velour_*
Cthulhu? Sandal? An Old God? Morgoth? All of the above?
Call me crazy but fenhareal seems very similar to ishmael. Regarding his disposition to mortals both mislead or give half truths, both enjoy choices of sorts
He does. but i think Ishmael more feeds on the chaos and the choices people make during that time while Fen'Harel just doesn't care. he isn't a trickster because he wants to hurt people, he just doesn't follow any rules he creates chaos just by being in a sense he is the ultimate Zeta, he doesn't wish to lead or prove himself, he plays games because he chooses too. He will save people as well as hunt them. In a sense there would never be a way to relate to him.
I agree. some spirit might have not created the fade or Thedas. but someone defiantly put the Veil between both realms. and thats probably who ever the Maker/Creator is.
Personally, I tend to feel that "The Maker" is an anthropomorphic representation of the Golden City's essence, or something of that sort. The Maker is probably not Human or Humanoid, as neither were Spirits until they chose to imitate Humans and Humanoids.
I've always sort of gotten the feeling that the Chantry misrepresents/misunderstands what their Maker actually is and how it behaves. I very much doubt that Andraste is the Maker's "Bride" in any human sense, as the Maker and everything about his description has always struck me as something not human but being clumsily portrayed in human terms.
Personally, I tend to feel that "The Maker" is an anthropomorphic representation of the Golden City's essence, or something of that sort. The Maker is probably not Human or Humanoid, as neither were Spirits until they chose to imitate Humans and Humanoids.
I've always sort of gotten the feeling that the Chantry misrepresents/misunderstands what their Maker actually is and how it behaves. I very much doubt that Andraste is the Maker's "Bride" in any human sense, as the Maker and everything about his description has always struck me as something not human but being clumsily portrayed in human terms.
Again i don't think he created the world i think he saw something and decided that the Veil was needed and created it to keep the two worlds separate. So he didn't make the fade and was like "Yo this is boring" and hopped over to a new place and created thedas. i think it was all just one place and some grand spirit maybe a choice which made the two realm separated
pfft boxer or breifs... real evil doers wear tighty whites that rescrict "movement" giving them their angry dispositionsSince its always nice to break up talks with silliness does the Elder One have boxers or briefs?
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