121 réponses à ce sujet

[Navasha]

In the western world, we have something similar to what life is like under the Qun.    A place where everyone is equal and gets equal amounts of food each day,    They all wear the same clothes, and have equal amounts of living space.    They are watched over by the 'benevolent' authority who enforces the daily rules and rituals just like the Ben-Hassereth.   All things are equal and it only costs your freedom.  

 

Its called Prison. 

 

The only difference being that under the Qun you would have to produce a certain amount of work each day or be punished, or brainwashed into a nice little drone.    Somehow, I don't really think as many people would go for it as you seem to think.  

[Gwydden]

And are passion and wealth not the two largest factors when it comes to crime? Maybe the qunari realize this?

And you think suppressing them will make it better?

[LastSonOfTitan]

god I hope that we can "join" the Qun in DA:I if we pick Qunari (maybe at the end of the game)

sure they are extreme as hell but its just a game and I like to roleplay different characters

I already have my devout Andrastian planned now a Qunari who follows the Qun

 

Maybe he/she can even persuade Iron Bull and they both go to Par Vollen to Sten

 

I think they're both Vashoth (the Inquisitor and Iron Bull), so I don't know how well that would go for them

[Willowhugger]

Iron Bull is the odd man out as he's a Qunari who is pretending to be a Tal-Vashoth but is Tal-Vashoth in all but name.

[Sifr]

The rigidity of the Qun would not be very effective, revolutionary inventions and sudden groundbreaking inspirations usually come from people that have chosen their own path and their perfect environment for their ideas.

Imagine Newton living under the Qun, maybe he would have been forced into the role of a farmer for the rest of his life. Things like that would happen all the time in the Qun, simply giving people roles after some rough evaluation of their skills doesn't work at all.  

 

It reminds me a lot of what Javik said in ME3 regarding the Protheans, who were so rigid in how they went about running things in their Empire, the Reapers were able to blindside them as they were unable to change and adapt to the new set of circumstances they found themselves in.

 

In that way, I don't think they're too dissimilar from the Qunari, who are also locked into certain trains of thought that make them unable to consider any other options or course of actions aside from the one that the Qun demands them to take?

 

Keeping with the Mass Effect examples for a moment, could you imagine Shepard being as good a soldier if they followed their orders to the letter as the Qunari do with the Qun? Would they have still stolen the Normandy and taken it to Ilos, or would have have followed their orders blindly and remained grounded, even knowing that this would cause galactic destruction?

 

Or in ME2, would Shepard have joined Cerberus to stop the Collectors, even though they were flagrantly disobeying their orders and siding with the enemy? Is it better to side with Cerberus (or Tal-Vashoth) to end a problem that the Alliance (or Qunari) won't admit exists, or sit back and do nothing?

 

I think this is the basic flaw with the Qun. While Qunari seem to be allowed some leeway in how they interpret their role and demands of the Qun, the negatives far outweigh the positives when it comes to the basic restrictions in freedom that are placed upon them on both a personal and societal level.

[animedreamer]

Oh yeah, I'd just looooove to live in a society of enslavement, forced breeding, and mind control.

 

Sounds like real life to me, except in reality the chains that bind you are invisible, and wrapped up in social norms if not conformity. 

[Master Warder Z_]

No.

[animedreamer]

There is one misconception about the treatment of Saarebas here that needs to be corrected. While it is true they do endure some mutilation, a lot of this was done in order to prevent them from harming themselves and others. Their place in society however is honored, and respected for those that acknowledge what they are and submit to the Qun and its view on mages. They know that they are dangerous and that by mastering themselves they uphold the truest fundamentals of the Qun. So yes it looks bad from the outside but from the inside a Qun minded Saarebas, and to other Qunari it is seen as the ultimate selflessness that the Qun aspires to, hence they are honored and respected members of the society, and what they endure is simply another means of safety and protection of others from themselves.

[X Equestris]

Sounds like real life to me, except in reality the chains that bind you are invisible, and wrapped up in social norms if not conformity.

I don't recall anything in real life telling me I had to reproduce with this specific person or some such.

There is one misconception about the treatment of Saarebas here that needs to be corrected. While it is true they do endure some mutilation, a lot of this was done in order to prevent them from harming themselves and others. Their place in society however is honored, and respected for those that acknowledge what they are and submit to the Qun and its view on mages. They know that they are dangerous and that by mastering themselves they uphold the truest fundamentals of the Qun. So yes it looks bad from the outside but from the inside a Qun minded Saarebas, and to other Qunari it is seen as the ultimate selflessness that the Qun aspires to, hence they are honored and respected members of the society, and what they endure is simply another means of safety and protection of others from themselves.

Except that none of those preventative measures really stops a saarebas from becoming possessed and attacking others. Besides, I doubt a saarebas who doesn't agree with the Qun would care if their position was honored or not.

[Willowhugger]

There is one misconception about the treatment of Saarebas here that needs to be corrected. While it is true they do endure some mutilation, a lot of this was done in order to prevent them from harming themselves and others. Their place in society however is honored, and respected for those that acknowledge what they are and submit to the Qun and its view on mages. They know that they are dangerous and that by mastering themselves they uphold the truest fundamentals of the Qun. So yes it looks bad from the outside but from the inside a Qun minded Saarebas, and to other Qunari it is seen as the ultimate selflessness that the Qun aspires to, hence they are honored and respected members of the society, and what they endure is simply another means of safety and protection of others from themselves.

 

I think that's how it's supposed to work but the Qunari are probably about as good at following the subtleties of their religion as the people in Thedas are about following the Chant.

[animedreamer]

I don't recall anything in real life telling me I had to reproduce with this specific person or some such.

 

Clearly you aren't living in the right places. There are plenty of places and lets not even pretend its only the backwater parts of developed nations where if you even suggested you might marry or be in a relationship that doesn't conform to the norm, you are in for a hell of a lot of trouble, but i dont want to get into that, in terms of Thedas, like others have said being set up to marry someone chosen for you is hardly news in or out of the Qun. If you recall the female human noble, mentions to Arl Howle that she isn't interested in arranged marriages, and her father quickly jabs, "See what I have to contend with Howle, you can't tell my fierce pop anything these days.," which kind of suggest that it might have happened if she had been more complaint. 

[Pierce Miller]

Let me quote the great Sten himself, No.

[animedreamer]

Except that none of those preventative measures really stops a saarebas from becoming possessed and attacking others. Besides, I doubt a saarebas who doesn't agree with the Qun would care if their position was honored or not.

 

I haven't heard of any Saarebas attacking anyone, or seen any. So unless you can show me some Qun minded Saarebas killing other Qun minded Saarebas or other Qunari in general, i don't see your point. By which if such a thing did happen then they clearly aren't Qun minded Saarebas as again Saarebas like Katojun were faithful to the Qun understood their role, and obviously WERE NOT POSSESSED. 

[X Equestris]

Clearly you aren't living in the right places. There are plenty of places and lets not even pretend its only the backwater parts of developed nations where if you even suggested you might marry or be in a relationship that doesn't conform to the norm, you are in for a hell of a lot of trouble, but i dont want to get into that, in terms of Thedas, like others have said being set up to marry someone chosen for you is hardly news in or out of the Qun. If you recall the female human noble, mentions to Arl Howle that she isn't interested in arranged marriages, and her father quickly jabs, "See what I have to contend with Howle, you can't tell my fierce pop anything these days.," which kind of suggest that it might have happened if she had been more complaint.

That would be one thing if the Qun set you up in a sustained relationship with said person. However, the info on the Qun seems to imply that you can be set up with any number of people over the years, not just one person. You don't even get to raise the children that come from such a union, and might not even know who they are. At least in an arranged marriage, the individuals involved can come to love one another, while the Qun's system of reproduction doesn't even seem to allow that.

As for Thedosian arranged marriages, they seem to also allow a little leeway if those involved fulfill their marital duties. Compare to the Qun where any sexual behavior not meant for procreation is wrong and can result in reeducation.

[animedreamer]

I think that's how it's supposed to work but the Qunari are probably about as good at following the subtleties of their religion as the people in Thedas are about following the Chant.

 

This i can't argue because we can't account for every mage born Qunari. We don't know what goes into their training, or if most even survive it. Those that do however from what we saw are for the most part worthy in the Qunari sense, as they have not demonstrated possession while in the company of their arvaarad, and as the one with Hawke demonstrated, the ability to protect who he knew was good or right (protecting hawke), that Saarebas even comments that he knew Beatrice and her aid was bad, and in the end sacrificed himself willingly to his Arvaarad or himself willingly because he was of the Qun mind that taught him that he was meant to be led, to which he did allow but also that if called upon because of the danger of a leashless saarebas he would have to submit to death if he was ever separated from his Arvaarad. I don't claim to understand everything the Qunari and the Qun preach, but whatever their rules are, they are their rules and those of the Qun mind are likely to follow them.

[HaHa365]

No for two reasons:

1. It is no better than any other form of religion in Thedas, in terms of being "perfect"

2. Then where would the diversity be?

[X Equestris]

I haven't heard of any Saarebas attacking anyone, or seen any. So unless you can show me some Qun minded Saarebas killing other Qun minded Saarebas or other Qunari in general, i don't see your point. By which if such a thing did happen then they clearly aren't Qun minded Saarebas as again Saarebas like Katojun were faithful to the Qun understood their role, and obviously WERE NOT POSSESSED.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have not seen many saarebas, so just as we can't say that the Tevinter experience significantly less demonic possessions than Circle mages, we can't make a definitive statement on the rates of possession amongst saarebas.

[animedreamer]

That would be one thing if the Qun set you up in a sustained relationship with said person. However, the info on the Qun seems to imply that you can be set up with any number of people over the years, not just one person. You don't even get to raise the children that come from such a union, and might not even know who they are. At least in an arranged marriage, the individuals involved can come to love one another, while the Qun's system of reproduction doesn't even seem to allow that.

As for Thedosian arranged marriages, they seem to also allow a little leeway if those involved fulfill their marital duties. Compare to the Qun where any sexual behavior not meant for procreation is wrong and can result in reeducation.

 

What the Qun does is enforce a breeding program based on the qualities of what is needed and what results would breed the next best generation of said role fulfillers. It isn't marriage and in the case of the Qun i am very aware of that, they mate based on the needs of the Qun. It is very possible that underachievers don't even get allowed to mate, or they are mated with someone who's features might overlap the shortcomings of the other mate. I was simply pointing out that being told who to do it with, or love in the case of non Qunari is hardly all that different throughout Thedas, Qun or not.

[animedreamer]

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We have not seen many saarebas, so just as we can't say that the Tevinter experience significantly less demonic possessions than Circle mages, we can't make a definitive statement on the rates of possession amongst saarebas.

True indeed but according to Sten, if i recall things like what happened in the Broken Circle do not happen in Qunari controlled lands. They don't have the right of Tranquility in Qunari controlled lands, yet they have mages, enough so as to fight the Chantry, and Tevinter evenly so they are clearly doing something right.

[animedreamer]

2. Then where would the diversity be?

The universe demands diversity, however i think that only applies to genetics, not necessarily to the way various people think, in that regard the universe might want that to be uniformed. The Geth had a ideal society before the reapers came and divided them in their attempt to get the geth on their side, however organics would never admit that synthetics like the Geth and their version of society constitutes as a real society for the simple fact that they did originally all have equal say and conversed until a united consensus was reached. Yes the ability to have everyone talk to each other at lightspeed helped them achieve this, but hey its their advantage. 

[SgtSteel91]

There was that Saarebas in Dragon Age: Redemption who escaped and attempted to destroy the world because he had been told all his life that if he escaped he would destroy the world.

[The Baconer]

So yes it looks bad from the outside but from the inside a Qun minded Saarebas, and to other Qunari it is seen as the ultimate selflessness that the Qun aspires to, hence they are honored and respected members of the society [...]

 

Only one piece of literature in the entire lore to state this is written by a human convert (a seer, no less).

 

The Arishok literally states the opposite. To afford them some greater respect, as if the same would not be simply expected from all Qunari, is considered an insult.

[Willowhugger]

This i can't argue because we can't account for every mage born Qunari. We don't know what goes into their training, or if most even survive it. Those that do however from what we saw are for the most part worthy in the Qunari sense, as they have not demonstrated possession while in the company of their arvaarad, and as the one with Hawke demonstrated, the ability to protect who he knew was good or right (protecting hawke), that Saarebas even comments that he knew Beatrice and her aid was bad, and in the end sacrificed himself willingly to his Arvaarad or himself willingly because he was of the Qun mind that taught him that he was meant to be led, to which he did allow but also that if called upon because of the danger of a leashless saarebas he would have to submit to death if he was ever separated from his Arvaarad. I don't claim to understand everything the Qunari and the Qun preach, but whatever their rules are, they are their rules and those of the Qun mind are likely to follow them.

Of course, Dragon Age: Redemption is all about a Saarebas who comes to the conclusion that since the Qun teaches that mages are an evil, volatile, and destructive thing then the only way to follow the Qun as a mage is to be an evil, volatile, and destructive thing.

[Willowhugger]

True indeed but according to Sten, if i recall things like what happened in the Broken Circle do not happen in Qunari controlled lands. They don't have the right of Tranquility in Qunari controlled lands, yet they have mages, enough so as to fight the Chantry, and Tevinter evenly so they are clearly doing something right.

 

They do have something similar to the rite of Tranquility, though.