203 réponses à ce sujet

[Yinello]

Why do these threads always end up talking about ME3?

[Ieldra]

Perhaps we should go back to discussing DAI? I don't think anything new can be said about ME3 that hasn't been repeated ad infinitum. On both sides.

As for DAI's use of tropes, personally I'd prefer it if DAI refrained from having NPCs continually praise our badassery, and even more I don't want that followed up by an unavoidable statement from my protagonist which does nothing but showcase their mind-numbing stupidity. I already have some concerns regarding the former based on some of the recent published material.

@Yinello:
Because in several aspects related to storytelling, ME3 exemplifies what a large number of people don't want. However, people are not always clear about that which is why I prefer we spell out exactly what we don't want without using ME3 for comparison.

[txgoldrush]

I wouldn't say that the Extended Cut was particularly well-written, just a vast improvement over the abrupt cutoff that was the original.

It did however, connect the ending with the themes of the series because of how it fleshed out The Catalyst and its origins and defined the conflict a lot better.

 

The only real fault (I mean flaw, not personal preference that wasn't addressed) I see in the extended cut was that the catalyst conversation should have been a lot more different for low EMS players, when the choice ended up being vaporization or refusal. The Catalyst would logically argue for Shepard not to fire the Crucible due to the horrific effects it could have on the future of the galaxy.

[txgoldrush]

Perhaps we should go back to discussing DAI? I don't think anything new can be said about ME3 that hasn't been repeated ad infinitum. On both sides.

As for DAI's use of tropes, personally I'd prefer it if DAI refrained from having NPCs continually praise our badassery, and even more I don't want that followed up by an unavoidable statement from my protagonist which does nothing but showcase their mind-numbing stupidity. I already have some concerns regarding the former based on some of the recent published material.

@Yinello:
Because in several aspects related to storytelling, ME3 exemplifies what a large number of people don't want. However, people are not always clear about that which is why I prefer we spell out exactly what we don't want without using ME3 for comparison.

However part of growing as a storyteller and a writer or director is not being afraid to feature story situations that the fan base simply won't like and to actually challenge the fan base. This is what CD Projeckt understands with the Witcher games. Instead of trying to fill their games with fan service and formula, they do what they want to do. Thanks to the fans, Bioware does not "have" this freedom and if they try to have it...the fan base mutinies.

[Milan92]

However part of growing as a storyteller and a writer or director is not being afraid to feature story situations that the fan base simply won't like and to actually challenge the fan base. This is what CD Projeckt understands with the Witcher games. Instead of trying to fill their games with fan service and formula, they do what they want to do. Thanks to the fans, Bioware does not "have" this freedom and if they try to have it...the fan base mutinies.

 

Except CD Projekt never went a sudden different way with the Witcher games.

[txgoldrush]

Except CD Projekt never went a sudden different way with the Witcher games.

But they have and they will. The Witcher 3 is a complete overhaul from the first two games. And the first two games have different stories altogether, with very different themes and scope.

[Milan92]

But they have and they will. The Witcher 3 is a complete overhaul from the first two games. And the first two games have different stories altogether, with very different themes and scope.

 

The story has always been about Geralt and his amnesia. This is the final chapter to that story.

[txgoldrush]

The story has always been about Geralt and his amnesia. This is the final chapter to that story.

And yet, TW1 has a very different take than TW2 on his amnesia, a pretty jarring one.

 

And really part of TW1 was about how Geralt learns to make new memories, not try to get the old ones back. TW2 goes the other direction in a very contrived fashion and completely undoes the mold the player shaped Geralt as in the first game.

[Milan92]

And yet, TW1 has a very different take than TW2 on his amnesia, a pretty jarring one.

 

And really part of TW1 was about how Geralt learns to make new memories, not try to get the old ones back. TW2 goes the other direction in a very contrived fashion and completely undoes the mold the player shaped Geralt as in the first game.

 

And TW3 is about Ciri.

 

But did The Witcher ever try to be something it was not? No.

 

And that was what this was all about. 

 

This is getting too OT, so I'll end it here.

[txgoldrush]

But did The Witcher ever try to be something it was not? No.

 

And that was what this was all about. 

 

This is getting too OT, so I'll end it here.

The Mass Effect series didn't try to be something its not. The fans focus was too narrow...once again.

 

"The Mass Effect series has always been about how people try to alter or create the destinies of others, the conflict it creates, and consequences that results from it, as well as exploring or touching upon the morality of the actions of altering another's destiny. It was not about just stopping the Reapers. The Reapers are only a product of the setting and this thematic element."

 

End of discussion.

[nici2412]

The story has always been about Geralt and his amnesia. This is the final chapter to that story.

I wouldn't say Witcher 1 was about Geralt's amnesia. The amnesia was important gameplay wise, but not story wise. Most of the players haven't read the novels, but Geralt was a established character from the novels. So they needed some way to introduce all the characters from the books to the player. It would have been awkward if Geralt knew all the characters, but the player didn't. Same goes for gameplay (learning fighting, signs etc.)

The amnesia and his memories coming back became storyrelevant in witcher 2, when he started to remember what happened after the ending of the last book of the ciri- saga and his journey to find Yennefer.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

However part of growing as a storyteller and a writer or director is not being afraid to feature story situations that the fan base simply won't like and to actually challenge the fan base. This is what CD Projeckt understands with the Witcher games. Instead of trying to fill their games with fan service and formula, they do what they want to do. Thanks to the fans, Bioware does not "have" this freedom and if they try to have it...the fan base mutinies.

 

So how do you explain people who love the Witcher series to death but detest ME3 as the poorly written poorly executed drek that it is?

 

I like my Deus Ex endings in Deus Ex. Not pretentiously thrown on to a series of cover based shooters with light waifu and choice flavoring.

[Ieldra]

However part of growing as a storyteller and a writer or director is not being afraid to feature story situations that the fan base simply won't like and to actually challenge the fan base. This is what CD Projeckt understands with the Witcher games. Instead of trying to fill their games with fan service and formula, they do what they want to do. Thanks to the fans, Bioware does not "have" this freedom and if they try to have it...the fan base mutinies.

I agree that writers should be able to tell their story. However, there are story elements you just can't tell to a mainstream audience if you want - or need - to sell millions of copies. There are also story elements you just can't tell to an audience well-versed in SF themes and expect to be praised for it. And...there are story elements you can't tell to a reasonably intelligent audience without making them groan. For instance, don't think I don't understand the various allegories attempted within the story. I also could make a very long list of themes present in the story. However, some of them were presented in a way that insulted my intelligence, others I simply hated.

You may think that the fanbase only wants their power fantasies. Speaking strictly for myself, this was never about power. Nor even about survival and a happy ending. It was about being presented with thematic messages I despise without being able to roleplay against them (not in the ending, there I had this choice). It was about insulting my intelligence. It was about taking my goal - saving my civilization - and making it fail in a misguided effort to elevate the story into the metaphysical (in the OE: sacrificing my civilization for "all life that will ever exist").

Here is an unfortunately plausible example of how DAI could fail me in the same way:

In the end, the Inquisitor is stripped of their special power and it's heavily suggested it's a good thing they're just human again. It does not matter if the Inquisitor dies or not. It does not matter if the Inquisitor retains any kind of power otherwise, political or magical, or if we're told we're walking off into the sunset with only our sword or staff. If this thematic message is present - as a thematic message instead of just an NPC's opinion - this will not be my story and I will hate the outcome.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

I agree that writers should be able to tell their story. However, there are story elements you just can't tell to a mainstream audience if you want - or need - to sell millions of copies. There are also story elements you just can't tell to an audience well-versed in SF themes and expect to be praised for it. And...there are story elements you can't tell to a reasonably intelligent audience without making them groan. For instance, don't think I don't understand the various allegories attempted within the story. I also could make a very long list of themes present in the story. However, some of them were presented in a way that insulted my intelligence, others I simply hated.

You may think that the fanbase only wants their power fantasies. Speaking strictly for myself, this was never about power. Nor even about survival and a happy ending. It was about being presented with thematic messages I despise without being able to roleplay against them (not in the ending, there I had this choice). It was about insulting my intelligence. It was about taking my goal - saving my civilization - and making it fail in a misguided effort to elevate the story into the metaphysical (in the OE: sacrificing my civilization for "all life that will ever exist").

 

 

But you see Ieldra you just. don't. get. it!

It's all about that sweet sweet sacrifice that these primatives will never understand! It is impossible to dislike ME3's ending if you are an intelligent being. The glorious TX has shown us the way to enlightenment!

[jtav]

And I would think the Inquisitor losing their Fade power and becoming just human is a great ending.

 

As long as DAI is tonally and thematically consistent, I'm fairly open.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

 

 

As long as DAI is tonally and thematically consistent, I'm fairly open.

 

No no no! It must rip off Deus Ex in the last twenty minutes! Think of the ART! THE ARRRRRRRRRRRRT!!!!!

[KaiserShep]

Can't say I'd have a problem with losing the fade power, like, if the power was somehow tied to the whole breach thing. I mean, what good is it if you've already closed it up and saved the day anyway? I guess if it's also good for breaking the ice at parties or something.

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

Can't say I'd have a problem with losing the fade power, like, if the power was somehow tied to the whole breach thing. I mean, what good is it if you've already closed it up and saved the day anyway? I guess if it's also good for breaking the ice at parties or something.

 

Noble: Soooo Inquisitor what shall you be doing this evening?

Inquisitor: Oh I think I'll just have fun with mah glowy hand of power.

Noble: Degenerate!

Inquisitor: No! I mean I'm going to use my magic hands to wow all the guests!

Noble2: The gall!

[jtav]

I actually found much to admire in ME3's ending. Which doesn't change the many problems with it.

[Ieldra]

And I would think the Inquisitor losing their Fade power and becoming just human is a great ending.

The thematic message is important, not the outcome as such. I actually think we don't get to keep that power, and that's ok with me, as long as it isn't suggested as a thematic message that being just human is intrinsically preferable to having special powers.

[jtav]

The thematic message is important, not the outcome as such. I actually think we don't get to keep that power, and that's ok with me, as long as it isn't suggested as a thematic message that being just human is intrinsically preferable to having special powers.

I know why you don't like it. I just agree with those themes.

[Ieldra]

I know why you don't like it. I just agree with those themes.

I know, but what's wrong with giving us the outcome and leaving us to interpret the deeper meaning? Oh, and of course I mean a real outcome instead of an allegorical representation which is vague in details but all the more thematically suggestive.

BTW, I don't think it will be an intended message in this story. That would make a pro-mage stance problematic. However, such messages can be sent unintentionally, if the writer uses certain conventions without thinking about their effect.

[jtav]

I know, but what's wrong with giving us the outcome and leaving us to interpret the deeper meaning?

Nothing really. I was just struck that you used the example of an ending and theme that would make me happy.

[HaHa365]

I know, but what's wrong with giving us the outcome and leaving us to interpret the deeper meaning?

I enjoy this aspect myself. I like to have a little left to the imagination. Not a cliff-hangar by any means but open for interpretation.

[ShadowLordXII]

How is it convoluted? Because it isn't simple, get what you want, power fantasy. Everything in the ending was hinted at all throughout the game, even the series. But I can see how for people on BSN, its convoluted. Doesn't make it so however.

 

Poorly written. Admittedly yes, the first time. Because they underdeveloped it. Extended cut....no.

 

And plot holes....the fan base doesn't even know what plot holes are. Once again, what plot holes? And I mean, use what the PLOT gives you, not character talking codex entries from ME1 that Bioware can freely contradict nor make inferences up that the narrative doesn't even mention. Outside the relays exploding in the first ending (and even that's not a plot hole because the narrative never gave you what happened, it left it ambiguous) had plot issues.

 

From wikipedia: A Plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a paradox in the story that cannot be reconciled with any explanation. These include such things as illogical or impossible events, and statements or events that contradict earlier events in the storyline.

 

If Vigil was going to be contradicted, then at the very least the EC could've dedicated some time to explaining why Star-Child didn't do anything about the Prothean sabotage or opening the Dark Relay itself despite designing, building and being part of the Citadel. But Bioware didn't which leaves us with a major story-breaking plothole despite your assertions to the contrary.

 

Inquisition can go for a more realist approach, fine. Even a bittersweet downer ending, I'm sure that plenty of people are open-minded enough for that to happen. But the last thing that anyone wants is more pseudo-philosophical nonsense thrown in for the sake of "trying to be deep". Especially if this nonsense is done poorly or to where it creates a story breaker plot hole.

 

If I see another last minute plot crucial character try to lecture me about the true meaning of life or that the darkspawn were created to save people from being killed by mages by having the darkspawn kill everyone...I'll turn off the game and go read a book.