60 réponses à ce sujet

[Sasie]

Can just start by saying all this is my personal opinion before anyone accuse me of speaking for the entire community. Anyway the multiplayer does look amazing, I won't deny that. Honestly of all the options for multiplayer we could have had this one is probably the best except possibly full co-op campaign in the style of Original Sin. That said as fun as it looks I still think this style of multiplayer is in the end a negative thing for a singleplayer RPG because no matter if it's fully separated it's still going to affect the singleplayer experiance in ways I would prefer to avoid.

For me multiplayer also feels like a slippery slope to a place where I personally would not want one of my favorite series to go. Multiplayer always do have people who care little to nothing about the singleplayer game and those are customers as well and there is always the possibility that while multiplayer might start off as a side thing it could over time become what the entire series is about.

With Mass effect 3 it could be argued that the multiplayer was already more successful then the singleplayer campaign. Not because the multiplayer was that good but simply because fans were unhappy with how the series ended. If Dragon Age ever does the same mistake and mess up the story in this or a future game it's entirely possible that the main focus for Bioware will eventually shift to the multiplayer part of their games. After all if the multiplayer start to bring in a different crowd that stick around longer and/or the singleplayer fans are unhappy to begin with why not put greater focus on the part that brings in more money/success? Especially with micro-transactions.

Even if it won't affect singleplayer to such extreme lengths we already have the entire combat system being designed and built from the ground up with multiplayer in mind. That alone must have had a huge inpact on how the game will play. I imagine I might be a minority here but I do love tactical combat that has real time battle with pause and the eight abilities they have planned/made is just not good enough. Eight abilities might only just cover all the buff/debuff spells in a game like Baldur's gate 2 and would leave no room for specific spells to handle certain situations if there should also be room for damage spells and summon abilities.

Beyond that I'm skeptical to how a combat system will be able to be both tactical with pause or action based without it without one being less then it would have been. I would rather have one combat system designed for one thing in mind rather then have to play a dual role because I'm quite sure it would been better without multiplayer.

It might been a slightly long rant but personally in the end while I have nothing negative to say about the multiplayer we been shown in itself I would still prefer if it stays out of singleplayer RPGs. There is more then enough multiplayer games out there for it to slip in to every other genre as well.

[Cassandra Saturn]

it was said that it does not affect Single player of DAI. it's separated.

[Sasie]

it was said that it does not affect Single player of DAI. it's separated.

That's not the point if you read what I wrote but lets make it simple then. If Multiplayer ever proves more successful of the two it could simply lead to more focus on it in future games and Bioware eventually turning into a co-op multiplayer focused company in order to hunt better sales and microtransactions. EA told their companies in the past to change direction in game in order to get more sales and often to put greater multiplayer focus then earlier titles. Tiberum Twilight, Bullfrog with Dungeon Keeper comes to mind to name a few.

Just because multiplayer has no affect on this game it won't change what happen in the next one. I can't imagine EA will ever allow Bioware to make a singleplayer only game ever again, can you?

[Elhanan]

I cannot play most M/P games, as I have the reflexes of most road-kill, and have little experience with it other than NWN1 (still playing after all these years) and my past time on SWTOR. That said, I choose not to complain on the inclusion of another option in which I am unlikely to use because it seems likely the majority of Players will enjoy it. I like options as a rule, and as long as I am not forced to use them, I cannot see how campaigning for their removal helps the community.

[N7 ElusiveOne]

This kind of discussion is best had after DA:I and not prior to its release. Since we haven't seen the impact of multiplayer, then we cannot hope to speculate about how Bioware treats future projects. Pay close attention to Mass Effect 4, as there would be good reason to focus on the multiplayer modes of that title instead of the single player modes.

[Sasie]

This kind of discussion is best had after DA:I and not prior to its release. Since we haven't seen the impact of multiplayer, then we cannot hope to speculate about how Bioware treats future projects. Pay close attention to Mass Effect 4, as there would be good reason to focus on the multiplayer modes of that title instead of the single player modes.

I think by the time Mass effect 4 is revealed it will already be too late if Bioware decide to head down that direction. That said there is really nothing we can do about it, was mostly me ranting out my fears about how I personally think the future will play out. There is few enough companies that actually make high quality games like Bioware that losing one to co-op and multiplayer focused titles would be tragic. 

If the multiplayer is amazing/good and continues to be good I imagine it's just a matter of time before the focus shift to 50/50 or even fall over on the side of the multiplayer in future titles. It has happened before after all with other companies.

[DBR87]

I BioWare's future games are lacking when it comes to single player then the issue is who ever is in charge of that aspect needs to step their game up. I imagine development went something along the lines as this: Combat engine created by the core design team. From there a team was dedicated to Single player while a smaller team focused on multiplayer. I could be wrong. But again, if they say SP and MP are independent of each other then my guess is that the reason is one larger group focused on SP and on smaller group focused on MP. So if the SP guys mess up then that is not of any fault on the MP guys. I think people are over reacting in general about MP in DA:I. BioWare is a developer that listens to their fans a lot more then other developers do. I am sure they will never turn Dragon Age or any other single player focused games into an MP focused game like Call of Duty so long as that is what the core fans want.

 

It's an option. As long as you have options and free will I don't see why anyone would fear the "what ifs" especially with out hard data to back it up. I enjoyed Mass Effect 3's Single Player experiences, and did so fully before even touching the multiplayer and I have some friends that did it that way to. I don't know about the rest of the world so...yeah.

[X Equestris]

Frankly, if it weren't for multiplayer, I probably wouldn't still be playing ME3. Not because the the story was bad, but because it gets old after playing it a lot. Multiplayer lets you take a sustained break from the story and still play something related to the franchise. Then, after the break, you can go back to the story.

As for the number of spells and talents, I'm not too concerned. I probably didn't use more than eight abilities regularly in the other games in the series anyway.

[Navasha]

The problem inevitably comes when the single-player starts to suffer.   You see, they don't offer the multiplayer game for sale by itself because it wouldn't have enough of an audience to warrant its production so it is tacked on to the singleplayer game instead.    When/if the company comes under the misperception that equal resources should be spent on each and the single-player is terrible... then the series dies.    Single-player and multi-player both.    I am hoping that that whoever is in charge of the budgets for future games comes under no illusion which side of the table people who are buying this game are sitting.  

 

Can you imagine if they had tacked multi-player on to DA2 prior to its release?   The series would have died right there.    I will be okay with them having expanded budgets for multi-player, but they had better be DOUBLY sure that their single-player game is above par from that point on or the fans will drop them like a hat.

[Maria Caliban]

I think by the time Mass effect 4 is revealed it will already be too late if Bioware decide to head down that direction. That said there is really nothing we can do about it, was mostly me ranting out my fears about how I personally think the future will play out. There is few enough companies that actually make high quality games like Bioware that losing one to co-op and multiplayer focused titles would be tragic. 

If the multiplayer is amazing/good and continues to be good I imagine it's just a matter of time before the focus shift to 50/50 or even fall over on the side of the multiplayer in future titles. It has happened before after all with other companies.

BioWare is already making a multiplayer only game. I expect that multiplayer will feature in every BioWare game in the future.

No, the single player game won't suffer from BioWare making a lot of money. It will suffer if BioWare can't make enough money to generate a substantial profit.

[Loki_344]

That's not the point if you read what I wrote but lets make it simple then. If Multiplayer ever proves more successful of the two it could simply lead to more focus on it in future games and Bioware eventually turning into a co-op multiplayer focused company in order to hunt better sales and microtransactions. EA told their companies in the past to change direction in game in order to get more sales and often to put greater multiplayer focus then earlier titles. Tiberum Twilight, Bullfrog with Dungeon Keeper comes to mind to name a few.

Just because multiplayer has no affect on this game it won't change what happen in the next one. I can't imagine EA will ever allow Bioware to make a singleplayer only game ever again, can you?

 

There's a reason that all the promotional materials so far and most of the promotional materials for ME3 were single player focused. Single player is still the big draw in the market for Biowares and most other publishers big AAA franchises. SP is what gets the majority of the customers to buy the game and MP is hopefully what keeps them there and away from trading it in. The only game franchises that would hinge their success on MP are ones with a well known history of delivering expansive MP modes with a rabid pre-existing fanbase and even in that case MP centric brands like Battlefield and Call of Duty have gone out of their way to improve and increase the visibility of their SP campaigns in order to give their games more mass appeal. If even they won't abandon SP what makes you think a developer known for making expansive RPGs ever would?

[Cyonan]

Slippery slope arguments are pointless as nobody has any evidence that it's going to shift towards being a primarily MP game. Just because fans got butthurt over ME3's ending doesn't even mean that ME4 is going to be MP focused, much less any future Dragon Age game. BioWare is getting the MP focused game out of their systems so to speak with Shadow Realms.

 

Beyond that the biggest negative to the MP is that people are going to blame everything they don't like about SP on it regardless of if it's true or not. People already love to blame the 8 ability limit on MP when that limit is actually SP specific, because MP only has 4 active abilities at once.

[Zjarcal]

If it's just your opinion then maybe you shouldn't say it's bad for "us".

[Sasie]

If it's just your opinion then maybe you shouldn't say it's bad for "us".

I would have formed it better if I could have but summing an entire argument up in one line is a bit of a struggle at times. That's why I did clarify it with the first sentence. If it makes you feel better I can once again say I don't pretend or claim to speak for the entire community but simply that I believe multiplayer could hurt the series in the long run.

 

 

Slippery slope arguments are pointless as nobody has any evidence that it's going to shift towards being a primarily MP game. Just because fans got butthurt over ME3's ending doesn't even mean that ME4 is going to be MP focused, much less any future Dragon Age game. BioWare is getting the MP focused game out of their systems so to speak with Shadow Realms.

 

Beyond that the biggest negative to the MP is that people are going to blame everything they don't like about SP on it regardless of if it's true or not. People already love to blame the 8 ability limit on MP when that limit is actually SP specific, because MP only has 4 active abilities at once.

It's all speculations as I freely admit but studios have been pushed toward multiplayer before following a game's failure to live up to expectations and Bioware havn't had the best record of late with Dragon Age 2 and Mass effect 3. If multiplayer does become the most successful part of their games I could see them getting a larger role in future titles, after all fans do seem to like it.

As far as Mass effect goes though they did try to make a full multiplayer title for it once, considering the sad state the lore is in after the ending there is a reasonble fear in my opinion at least that the next game might focus more on the aspect that was actually good in the last game. Aka the co-op. 

[Maria Caliban]

I would have formed it better if I could have but summing an entire argument up in one line is a bit of a struggle at times. That's why I did clarify it with the first sentence. If it makes you feel better I can once again say I don't pretend or claim to speak for the entire community but simply that I believe multiplayer could hurt the series in the long run.

I think part of the problem is that you're specifically stating this in the multiplayer forum.

It's filled with people who wouldn't see MP gaining significance as a bad thing. If BioWare decided to release Dragon Age games that were multiplayer only, I suspect many here would feel neutral to positive about that.

[LinksOcarina]

I think by the time Mass effect 4 is revealed it will already be too late if Bioware decide to head down that direction. That said there is really nothing we can do about it, was mostly me ranting out my fears about how I personally think the future will play out. There is few enough companies that actually make high quality games like Bioware that losing one to co-op and multiplayer focused titles would be tragic. 

If the multiplayer is amazing/good and continues to be good I imagine it's just a matter of time before the focus shift to 50/50 or even fall over on the side of the multiplayer in future titles. It has happened before after all with other companies.

 

That is not how games are made though, nor is that how they decide to make them.

 

A telling sign of this is the fact that two studios worked on Inquisition, one for singleplayer, one for multiplayer. Chances are it was decided early on to include the multiplayer so they have concurrent development going on, to match what happens between the two modes. Most modes are made out of house by a second studio, and most of them are tacked on, depending on the games focus.

 

Spec Ops: The Line for example had a single player game with tacked on multiplayer, so much so one of the lead designers of the single player game said the following.

 

"It sheds a negative light on all of the meaningful things we did in the single-player experience. The multiplayer game's tone is entirely different, the game mechanics were raped to make it happen, and it was a waste of money. No-one is playing it, and I don't even feel like it's part of the overall package - it's another game rammed onto the disk like a cancerous growth, threatening to destroy the best things about the experience that the team at Yager put their heart and souls into creating."

 

 

Vice-versa with the treatment of a game like Call of Duty, where its the single-player game seen as an unnecessary mode when compared to the multiplayer.

 

I think in the end though, "pure" single player games are going to become a relic as inter-connectivity becomes more prominent. In truth, that is really a good thing; at least in the past few years I can only think of a few pure single player games that have been really good Not to mention the cost for development tends to be recouped in multiplayer games.

 

I think in the case here, Single player is the main draw for the audience BioWare is attracting, whereas for their new game Shadow Realms, it is a multiplayer focus. You see the contrast in the marketing already. That should be the clue to tell you how games are treated differently for different markets, despite us all being under one umbrella of RPG fans. 

[Cyonan]

It's all speculations as I freely admit but studios have been pushed toward multiplayer before following a game's failure to live up to expectations and Bioware havn't had the best record of late with Dragon Age 2 and Mass effect 3. If multiplayer does become the most successful part of their games I could see them getting a larger role in future titles, after all fans do seem to like it.

As far as Mass effect goes though they did try to make a full multiplayer title for it once, considering the sad state the lore is in after the ending there is a reasonble fear in my opinion at least that the next game might focus more on the aspect that was actually good in the last game. Aka the co-op. 

 

The thing is that shifting the focus to be more MP than SP would bring about more rage from the fans and I highly doubt they don't know that. While the MP of Mass Effect 3 was rather popular and kept a community going for over 2 years only BioWare has the numbers to know if the majority of people who bought the game even bothered to play much MP. A good amount of what kept the community going was a smaller but dedicated playerbase as well as newer people coming in after the fact when ME3 has gone on sale multiple times.

 

and besides, Inquisition is already coming off a poorly received Dragon Age 2 while knowing just how popular ME3 MP was and having enough time to shift the focus if that's what they wanted to do. It already meets the conditions you're worried about and just look at how much work has gone into the SP.

[Sasie]

I think part of the problem is that you're specifically stating this in the multiplayer forum.

It's filled with people who wouldn't see MP gaining significance as a bad thing. If BioWare decided to release Dragon Age games that were multiplayer only, I suspect many here would feel neutral to positive about that.

 
I wanted to put it in the relevant forum though. Multiplayer discussions in the multiplayer forum. *cough* Just ignore the whole Combat Strategy label. I realised after that doesn't fully fit.   
 

 

The thing is that shifting the focus to be more MP than SP would bring about more rage from the fans and I highly doubt they don't know that. While the MP of Mass Effect 3 was rather popular and kept a community going for over 2 years only BioWare has the numbers to know if the majority of people who bought the game even bothered to play much MP. A good amount of what kept the community going was a smaller but dedicated playerbase as well as newer people coming in after the fact when ME3 has gone on sale multiple times.

 

and besides, Inquisition is already coming off a poorly received Dragon Age 2 while knowing just how popular ME3 MP was and having enough time to shift the focus if that's what they wanted to do. It already meets the conditions you're worried about and just look at how much work has gone into the SP.

 

If it had been Mass effect I might have expected them to already do that yes if it was coming of a unpopular title but Dragon Age was originally marketed as their traditional RPG series with the whole "Spiritual sequel to Baldur's gate" talk under development. I imagine it would take more then one game to turn the entire thing around, not to mention for me multiplayer does feel like a odd thing standing out in a medieval setting.

The combat system itself in earlier games was also not exactly perfect for a transition over to multiplayer so that's why I'm more worried for how things will turn out after Dragon Age Inquisition depending on how it goes but really in the end only Bioware knows how far they want to take all this. It does feel like they are experimenting more and more with different things then the traditional elements I love in their games though.
 

[Cyonan]

 If it had been Mass effect I might have expected them to already do that yes if it was coming of a unpopular title but Dragon Age was originally marketed as their traditional RPG series with the whole "Spiritual sequel to Baldur's gate" talk under development. I imagine it would take more then one game to turn the entire thing around, not to mention for me multiplayer does feel like a odd thing standing out in a medieval setting.

The combat system itself in earlier games was also not exactly perfect for a transition over to multiplayer so that's why I'm more worried for how things will turn out after Dragon Age Inquisition depending on how it goes but really in the end only Bioware knows how far they want to take all this. It does feel like they are experimenting more and more with different things then the traditional elements I love in their games though.
 

 

In that case there is little point in even bothering to discuss anything until ME4 comes around, because everything is just met with "They might go that way in the future!".

 

As far as the combat system goes, I don't see how Origins' combat wouldn't translate into MP and it actually did have a co-op mode planned at one point.

[stysiaq]

1. MP won't be more successful than SP, because there's a fundamental difference between ME (same hero for 3 games, more expectations) and DA (3 different stories, already dropped several balls with DA2). Sadly, even if the DA:I story i a mess then it won't be much of a shock.

2. Multiplayer of ME3 is interesting mainly as an addon to ME series. On it's own it's a simple, enjoyable buggy mess. If Bioware released it independently in a whole new setting then a huge amount of people, me included, would just make fun of the company and start calling it Tortanic 2.0. I feel that DAMP is more or less the same and wouldn't have any chance to exist as a standalone project.

3. If you are worried that developing a good MP mode (and DAMP looks at least solid in my book) will bring in a crowd that isn't exactly your cup of tea, then it's not really a problem. They probably will still stay out of the story discussions and I doubt that they will be plentiful enough for the company to switch their focus*.

4. If you worry about RTWP not being what it could've been, then you should take a closer look at DA2 which managed to balance the classes but overall it made the whole game a lot less tactical already. The "not what it could have been" is already here, and from the looks of DA:I footage we're in for a step up. I would be optimistic about this one.

Or just wait for Pillars of Eternity. It will have RTWP without any limits. Hell, they're even reusing all the IWD2/NWN2/whatever assets and Magic Missle icon dates back to P:T. So you'll get a plenty of RTWP tactical challenges this year.

 

 

 

*Dragon Age and Bioware - in general - already switched their focus and their paradigm way too much for my tastes.

[Malanek]

You're very much dealing with hypotheticals. Out of all the "MPer is bad" posts I have read I didn't actually mind this one, it was following logical paths. However I think Bioware are aware that a big part of what made ME3 MPer so compelling was the world, lore and story that had already engaged so many fans. I believe the multiplayer and single player components complement each other and Bioware will continue to push both.

[Maria Caliban]

1. MP won't be more successful than SP...

Define 'successful.' Multiplayer doesn't require cinematics, a ton of voice work, or massive environments. If multiplayer costs less to make but makes the same amount of money, it's more profitable.

Or just wait for Pillars of Eternity...

Wait until after the first batch of patches.

[Sasie]

Define 'successful.' Multiplayer doesn't require cinematics, a ton of voice work, or massive environments. If multiplayer costs less to make but makes the same amount of money, it's more profitable.



Wait until after the first batch of patches.

One last post before bed but this is more or less why I'm nervous in the end, why make one if the other makes more money AND is easier as well? It doesn't have to be that way but it could happen and the day it does who knows what will happen.

At any rate the reason I think it's a concern is because of the separation between multiplayer and singleplayer. In many ways they are making two kind of games in one. I wouldn't worry about it if Pillars of Eternity for example added multiplayer because it would be the same as in the old IE games. Baldur's gate/Icewind dale had multiplayer too but with one player or five it was always the same game. With Dragon Age you have one open world storybased campaign and one dungeon mode.

Now the dungeon mode does sound pretty awesome and if any of my friends do end up getting the game I will be glad to try it because it really does sound fun but it's still a different thing from what drew me to the Dragon Age franchise. I can't think of an example though of a company that done what Bioware does with multiplayer in their latest games and still ended up supporting the singleplayer in the long run.

After all multiplayer and singleplayer fans are not always the same crowd even if there are those who like both, me included.

[stysiaq]

Define 'successful.' Multiplayer doesn't require cinematics, a ton of voice work, or massive environments. If multiplayer costs less to make but makes the same amount of money, it's more profitable.



Wait until after the first batch of patches.

 

 

Well, it's kinda sad, but 'more successful' really mean something in between 'surprisingly good' and 'less disappointing' when it comes to latest Bioware products.

I still think that Bioware will always focus on the SP aspect, considering that MP mode isn't a huge part of game's marketing (so it seems). Even if MP mode will be objectively more interesting than SP it still won't make Bioware turn from "the company that makes lets-call-it-RPGs" to a "company that makes fun multiplayer games".

 

 

And I doubt that PoE will get a "batch of patches", and even if it will, it's Obsidian, so it probably be barely playable even with them.