168 réponses à ce sujet

[AresKeith]

Unfortunately we will be forced to have Cassandra/Lelianna Seekers and Kirkwall butchers-Cullen Templars

there is never was and would be "good" Templars and Seekers, they was not created and have absolute rights given them by Chantry to do good things, only kill and inprison "heretics", mages and protect Orlais Chantry and Orlais Empire/Orlais Chantry loyal nobles from heretics and mages when they do bad things against "heretics" and mages what is considerate and propagandized by Orlais Chantry as Makers will...they just expensive stupid drug addicted fanatics with swords who must do anything what Orlais Chantry would told to them

the only good and real Orlais Chantry Templar was Carver(friend of Malkolm Hawke) and Trask who have mage daughter who was killed because of Templars and he help others mages and plan to stop Meredith and her Cullen who have opportunity to do all what they wanted because Elthina does support them by doing nothing(even then Viscont son was killed she does not care and do anything) and even disobey Divine word

The level of bias here is strong

[Master Warder Z_]

Yeah but by fighting for the Mage rebellion against the Templars and Chantry she is abandoning the second half of that duty.

 

She betrayed the order.

 

She fought against it.

 

In any military organization in our reality or thedas that would be a grievous crime.

[Asdrubael Vect]

I think there were more good Templars.

Remember the blind one from the Alienage in Origins?

The Templars should be out there hunting evil in general.

 

Instead, they ended up being jailers.
 

Of course, I don't deny it that there ARE a lot of evil mages too. Not just because of the Circle either.

Mostly because people are [censored] in Thedas in general.

We does not see them and especially now any who still serve in Templar Order deserve execution, especially red templars

 

Those blind Templar does not care then elves was taken to slavery...he does not care about people only about "i am holy Templar and i must kill demon"

 

The Templars never hunt evil they hunt and kill those who is enemies of Orlais Chantry will and they does not care who they are...mages, elves, even nobles like in Kirkwall

 

those old Inquisiton who join to Orlais Chantry when they was not needed was a shame of those who found this old organisation to follow Hessarian reforms and protect Thedas from Old Gods worshipers..they do exalted marshes and they do kill thousands of innocent peoples

 

95% of evil mages what we see was a product of Orlais Cahntry and their Templars work...mages are not part of order who serve to do bad stuff they are ordinary people who does not have any rights and hunted because of Orlais Chantry

[Master Warder Z_]

I never thought i would run into a poster harder to understand then TKS...and yet here it is.

 

Bioware does occasionally offer a surprise it seems.

[Willowhugger]

 

Those blind Templar does not care then elves was taken to slavery...he does not care about people only about "i am holy Templar and i must kill demon"

 

 

He wasn't too happy about elven children being killed and I doubt Templars approve of Black Divine mages either.

So I cut him some slack.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

She betrayed the order.

 

She fought against it.

 

In any military organization in our reality or thedas that would be a grievous crime.

 

I... uh... agree? I wasn't actually arguing  against anything in this post. I don't think necessarily that refusing to join Lambert's faction to hunt down mages necessarily makes one a traitor to templar ideals, but fighting for the mage rebellion does.

[Master Warder Z_]

I... uh... agree? I wasn't actually arguing  against anything in this post. I don't think necessarily that refusing to join Lambert's faction to hunt down mages necessarily makes one a traitor to templar ideals, but fighting for the mage rebellion does.

 

She needs to die, she is an insult to the order as much as that weak hearted Thrask ever was.

 

The order exists to safeguard mankind from magic, any templar that would permit magic to endanger the innocent is not worthy of the title.

[The Baconer]

She betrayed the order.

 

She fought against it.

 

In any military organization in our reality or thedas that would be a grievous crime.

 

Whatever the Templars are at the moment, they certainly are not an official military organization any more.

[Mistic]

She betrayed the order.

 

She fought against it.

 

In any military organization in our reality or thedas that would be a grievous crime.

 

Mm, not so sure. We know that the Mage-Templar War is actually a civil war. Because there's a third side: the Chantry. There are still mages, Seekers and Templars loyal to the Chantry first and foremost, so everyone else is a traitor for them.

 

In a civil war, the winner decides who was right and who was a traitor. Because you can't betray the order as a whole when the order itself is split.

 

And the winner will be the Inquisition (except in that possible game over it was hinted, but I'm sure it won't be ported to future games, like the disastrous version of the suicide mission in ME2).

[Master Warder Z_]

Whatever the Templars are at the moment, they certainly are not an official military organization any more.

 

Even mercenary armies have codes of conduct.

 

You don't have to be a military group of a nation state or organization to have rules and mission statements.

[Br3admax]

Mm, not so sure. We know that the Mage-Templar War is actually a civil war. Because there's a third side: the Chantry. There are still mages, Seekers and Templars loyal to the Chantry first and foremost, so everyone else is a traitor for them.

 

In a civil war, the winner decides who was right and who was a traitor. Because you can't betray the order as a whole when the order itself is split.

Infighting is not synonymous with civil war. 

[Master Warder Z_]

Mm, not so sure. We know that the Mage-Templar War is actually a civil war. Because there's a third side: the Chantry. There are still mages, Seekers and Templars loyal to the Chantry first and foremost, so everyone else is a traitor for them.

 

In a civil war, the winner decides who was right and who was a traitor. Because you can't betray the order as a whole when the order itself is split.

 

Honestly, i think the chantry lost the right to whine when its Divine decided to kill templars doing their duty, assassinating lambert?

 

I wouldn't have supported it, but i would have understood the reasoning.

 

Killing random templars who are just guarding a door though?

 

No, No, No, **** the chantry.

 

Lambert was right to ditch a church that betrayed them, the first chance they got, when the divine wanted to play boot licker to a would be imperium.

[Willowhugger]

She needs to die, she is an insult to the order as much as that weak hearted Thrask ever was.

 

The order exists to safeguard mankind from magic, any templar that would permit magic to endanger the innocent is not worthy of the title.

 

No, the order exists to safeguard mages from the masses every bit as much as the reverse. As an outgrowth of the Inquisition, they're also there to protect the world from demons and other monsters.

Given Lambert's orders were illegal and directly counter to the Templar's mission to protect mages from violence.

Well, bluntly, Evangeline is no more traitor than Lambert.

That's how civil wars often are.

[Willowhugger]

Lambert was right to ditch a church that betrayed them, the first chance they got, when the divine wanted to play boot licker to a would be imperium.

I see, so it's not treason when you have a good reason?

 

How do you feel about Sophia Dryden? She broke her oaths to the Grey Wardens but the King was a tyrant.

[The Baconer]

Even mercenary armies have codes of conduct.

 

You don't have to be a military group of a nation state or organization to have rules and mission statements.

 

If said rules and codes of conduct are not recognized as legitimate by anyone outside the organization, it hardly matters.

 

Besides, the Templars as an organization have broken plenty of their own supposed codes of conduct since going rogue.

[Master Warder Z_]

Well, bluntly, Evangeline is no more traitor than Lambert.

 

I said as much pages ago; But Lambert actually is fulfilling the original mandate of the Order.

 

Evangeline has turned traitor.

 

Lambert dissolved an alliance with a chruch that betrayed his entire organization.

 

Will history remember them that way? I am no seer, but i will never see Lambert as a traitor.

[Master Warder Z_]

I see, so it's not treason when you have a good reason?

 

No, its not treason when you have the means to break away, The Nevarran Accord was breached by the Chantry, and then officially dismissed by the Lord Seeker.

 

It isn't clear if this was "legal" or not, but if the head of the seeker order cannot do that, who can?

 

Seriously, I am all for splitting hairs about legality to make a point, but i will also point out you can hardly call  it "treason" when you aren't even going to engage the party in question, Lambert could have strolled his army to the grand cathedral, deposed the Divine and likely selected a new one all in the space of the time it would take to march on the mages.

 

That, you could argue would have been treason.

 

But no, He was hoping the Chantry would elect a new Divine, Beyond that he disolved their alliance and went to fulfill their original mission.

 

It isn't treason when you can no longer pay for workers and they leave, it isn't treason when you kill soldiers and their army leaves your service.

 

At least not when you send them a letter declaring as such.

 

There is no indicator Lambert did not have the authority to do what he did, Gaider never said he didn't.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Templars are supposed to serve the Chantry. Lambert wasn't just dissolving an alliance if he's not supposed to be equal to the Divine.

 

Anyway, the point is that Evangaline doesn't serve as an example of a "good templar" loyal to either Templar Order or the Chantry. WoT says that some templars rebelled against the Divine to hunt mages and others stayed loyal. I would hope we're going to run into both examples.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Templars are supposed to serve the Chantry. Lambert wasn't just dissolving an alliance if he's not supposed to be equal to the Divine.

 

Bummer for that head dress wearing figurehead.

 

Until i hear from Gaider stating Lambert did not have the authority to do it, i will assume he did as leader of the seeker order.

[The Baconer]

There is no indicator Lambert did not have the authority to do what he did, Gaider never said he didn't.

 

The problem with legality stems from the fact that, for the various nations and kingdoms of Thedas, the Templars are now a disorganized paramilitary group with no accountability.

[Master Warder Z_]

The problem with legality stems from the fact that, for the various nations and kingdoms of Thedas, the Templars are now a disorganized paramilitary group with no accountability.

 

Just like the Inquisition!

 

[Willowhugger]

Bummer for that head dress wearing figurehead.

 

Until i hear from Gaider stating Lambert did not have the authority to do it, i will assume he did as leader of the seeker order.

Technically, I don't think he had the authority. The Knights Divine, however, probably followed his lead.

[The Baconer]

Just like the Inquisition!

 

 

Negative. The Inquisition receives legitimacy from the highest authority that exists, and the only authority that truly matters. We are the instrument of the Maker.

[Master Warder Z_]

Technically, I don't think he had the authority. The Knights Divine, however, probably followed his lead.

 

If he had the Knight Commanders in his pocket, they likely did.

 

It isn't like they can do much if 90% of the order is leaving.

 

Beyond that Seekers have higher authority then Templars.

 

They do oversee the order and outrank its highest officials after all.