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A discussion about Skyrim's Civil War and who to pick.


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#51
Pateu

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Yay a chance to use my Elder Scrolls knowledge since civil war threads on the Bethesda fourm are long dead.  

They didn't give up on Hammerfell because of the reason you stated.The Empire recalled the legions because the Dominion had invaded Cyrodiil and ransacked the Imperial city. The Dominion was surprised how easily they had cut a path through Cyrodiil which led them to put more resources into taking Cyrodiil instead of Hammerfell which was their original goal.  This led to the Dominion's army in Hammerfell shorthanded to combat the Redguards/Imperials.  Hammerfell also received help the Legion General who was recalled to Cyrodiil by giving them troops that were discharged. Also the Empire in their eyes couldn't stand against the Dominion due to them suffering huge losses and their loss of the Blades also played greatly in them surrendering. 

 

 

I wasn't talking about that ( the retreat from Hammerfell even though a few Legionnaires were left behind. ) I was talking about the Empire renouncing Hammerfell as a province.



#52
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But it's possible, and once the invasion lands, it's all but over for Skyrim. Solitude would fall easily to a flanking invasion, and everything would go downhill from there. 

 

If it lands at all.

 

You need to remember the Thalmor would have to circle around half of Tamriel to reach Skyrim, with no friendly port in sight for supplies or medical attention.

 

To top it off, if one of the cities along the coast notifies the other kingdoms of a massive Thalmor fleet and Skyrim finds out about the naval invasion, they can simply barricade the coast and wait until the Thalmor die on their ships, because you're not going to conquer a beach from atop a rowing boat.

 

Add to that flaming arrows, the Dragonborn and the dragons he commands and the fact that the Nords' morale would be through the roof, as they not only got the worship of  Talos back, but they are also lead by the Last Dragonborn that also saved the world and killed Alduin.

 

Even if the elves somehow managed to land ( and I doubt that ) they'll be hard pressed against Skyrim's weather and fauna. Since the Thalmor journey from their lands they'd also have to bring a lot of warm clothes in addition to what they'd wear during the journey, further reducing the count of supplies.

 

Let's also not forget that if they come by ship they won't have any siege weapons and they'll be forced to fight on foot. Mages are strong but they don't bring down castles and they might have the surprise of getting hit by a cavalry charge while they try to breach the walls of Solitude.

 

Also with Nords being so strong against Frost, the Thalmor will lose part of their spellcasting arsenal. Shooting fireballs from a boat can backfire badly.



#53
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No one.

 

Because Civil War is stupid and about the worst thing you could do in any political situation.

 

And Thomas Hobbes can back me up on that.

 

Still, if I were to take Mr.Hobbes' advice I'd say the Imperials.

 

Why?

 

Order. Simple as that.

 

What's the use for FREEEEEDOOOOM when all it buys you is isolation from the rest of the world and a second war you have no chance in winning.

 

Yeah.

 

Stormcloaks are hurr de duuurrrr.

 

If you hate the Thalmor that much, then unite, intrigue, and fight.

 

Don't paint your arse blue and call it a day because you killed a hare with your twig.


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#54
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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If it lands at all.

 

You need to remember the Thalmor would have to circle around half of Tamriel to reach Skyrim, with no friendly port in sight for supplies or medical attention.

 

To top it off, if one of the cities along the coast notifies the other kingdoms of a massive Thalmor fleet and Skyrim finds out about the naval invasion, they can simply barricade the coast and wait until the Thalmor die on their ships, because you're not going to conquer a beach from atop a rowing boat.

 

Add to that flaming arrows, the Dragonborn and the dragons he commands and the fact that the Nords' morale would be through the roof, as they not only got the worship of  Talos back, but they are also lead by the Last Dragonborn that also saved the world and killed Alduin.

 

Even if the elves somehow managed to land ( and I doubt that ) they'll be hard pressed against Skyrim's weather and fauna. Since the Thalmor journey from their lands they'd also have to bring a lot of warm clothes in addition to what they'd wear during the journey, further reducing the count of supplies.

 

Let's also not forget that if they come by ship they won't have any siege weapons and they'll be forced to fight on foot. Mages are strong but they don't bring down castles and they might have the surprise of getting hit by a cavalry charge while they try to breach the walls of Solitude.

 

Also with Nords being so strong against Frost, the Thalmor will lose part of their spellcasting arsenal. Shooting fireballs from a boat can backfire badly.

It would be difficult, no question, but the Dominion is by far the most competent faction in Tamriel, and if they really wanted to invade, they could find a way, albeit with high casualties. 

Or a simpler way for them to invade, is just to defeat the Empire in Cyrodiil, which without Skyrim, has no connection with High Rock. 

Then it's a simple land invasion and Talos is once again gone forever. 

And I can't blame the Altmer for absolutely hating him. Their thoughts, though maybe not their actions, are perfectly justifiable. 



#55
vortex216

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I don't know who to pick. I used to side with Stormcloaks but now... I dunno... They both have good points, I usually either decide on a whim or what kind of character I'm playing.



#56
Pateu

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What's the use for FREEEEEDOOOOM when all it buys you is isolation from the rest of the world and a second war you have no chance in winning.

 

I disagree on that and it's why I think the Nords are better off alone. In the Empire they'd get drafted into Cyrodiil to protect its borders. Independently they can hold to Skyrim's borders indefinitely. The Thalmor aren't going to march into Skyrim.

 

 

 

Then it's a simple land invasion

 

One does not simply invade Skyrim. The Thalmor fared well in Cyrodiil because the climate is temperate, but in Hammerfell they were beaten back despite the Redguards being left to fend for themselves.

 

Skyrim's even worse, as they have to march through mountains to reach it. Ulfric's already shown that he can do guerilla warfare, but I already said that in my view the Dragonborn would challenge Ulfric for the throne and defeat him, leading.

 

I'd see the Dragonborn giving the Dark Elves and Argonians rights as long as they aid in fighting back the Thalmor. Dark Elves and Argonians make for good guerilla warfare due to them being skilled in magic, bows ( Elves ) and stealth/assassination ( argonians ).



#57
Steelcan

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It would be difficult, no question, but the Dominion is by far the most competent faction in Tamriel, and if they really wanted to invade, they could find a way, albeit with high casualties. 

Or a simpler way for them to invade, is just to defeat the Empire in Cyrodiil, which without Skyrim, has no connection with High Rock. 

Then it's a simple land invasion and Talos is once again gone forever. 

And I can't blame the Altmer for absolutely hating him. Their thoughts, though maybe not their actions, are perfectly justifiable. 

A land invasion would be hard, the only way in is through a series of mountain passes, very defensible



#58
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I disagree on that and it's why I think the Nords are better off alone. In the Empire they'd get drafted into Cyrodiil to protect its borders. Independently they can hold to Skyrim's borders indefinitely. The Thalmor aren't going to march into Skyrim.

 

A war of attrition. It's not the Thalmor vs Skyrim. It's the entire world vs Skyrim. You can't just Afghanistan it and get away, nah, in the end, they'd lose. And no, this is NOT assuming that a side has the Mary Sue of Mary Sues and her army of rat-pack Dragons. Dovahkiin does not factor into this, because he/she is an unknown element that can go one side or another.

 


A land invasion would be hard, the only way in is through a series of mountain passes, very defensible

 

But not impossible. Factor in things like magic and it becomes laughable. Fire, levitation, invisibility... dude, the Thalmor are practically the pimps at magic. Nords are too conservative, especially if the Stormcloaks are in power.



#59
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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One does not simply invade Skyrim. The Thalmor fared well in Cyrodiil because the climate is temperate, but in Hammerfell they were beaten back despite the Redguards being left to fend for themselves.

 

Skyrim's even worse, as they have to march through mountains to reach it. Ulfric's already shown that he can do guerilla warfare, but I already said that in my view the Dragonborn would challenge Ulfric for the throne and defeat him, leading.

 

I'd see the Dragonborn giving the Dark Elves and Argonians rights as long as they aid in fighting back the Thalmor. Dark Elves and Argonians make for good guerilla warfare due to them being skilled in magic, bows ( Elves ) and stealth/assassination ( argonians ).

Not only is Hammerfell almost entirely desert, and its naval strength makes a sea invasion impossible, but the Redguards also simply outclass the Nords with ease. The Thalmor would've had to literally march through a desert to get to any of Hammerfell's major cities. In Skyrim, Riften is the place where the invasion would begin, seeing as there is a giant road entering there from Morrowind. And there is just absolutely no chance is hell Nord armies can match the Dominion without a imperialist emperor using a super weapon against them. 

My Dragonborn would side with the Dominion. S/he's a wild card, and can't be used in this discussion. 

The Argonians wouldn't give a ****, they are fiercely independent and wouldn't fight for Ulfric because he's a racist ******. Same goes for the Dark Elves, who might just join up with the Thalmor if it they got an offer that they would be given control of Windhelm. 



#60
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A war of attrition. It's not the Thalmor vs Skyrim. It's the entire world vs Skyrim.

 

What? More like the entire world vs Thalmor.

 

No one likes them.

 

But not impossible. Factor in things like magic and it becomes laughable. Fire, levitation, invisibility... dude, the Thalmor are practically the pimps at magic.

 

Magic isn't an IWIN Button.

 

They got beat in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. They aren't invincible.

 

ame goes for the Dark Elves, who might just join up with the Thalmor if it they got an offer that they would be given control of Windhelm.

 

And how would the Thalmor contact them?



#61
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What? More like the entire world vs Thalmor.

 

No one likes them.

 

And since did that matter? Win or lose, they gain a province that'll still be split up and WASTED.

 

Dude, Skyrim doesn't do it very well, but I just gotta tell you.

 

Civil War just screws everything over.

 

This is not the NORDS V IMPERIALS.

 

This is Nords v Nords and when one faction wins, the other faction will inevitably still hold a grudge later on.

 

Not only that.

 

But Civil War RAVAGES the land, bankrupts the state and leaves a political fallout that will last for DECADES.

 

Even if they DO win, they simply have no chance.

 

And even if they are sour, they'll put up with it because that's how Empires are run. It'd be different if the Thalmor were Orcs (Tolkien's not TES) and screwing everything over, but from what I recall, they aren't. They're the same as the Imperials were before it.

 

This wouldn't go in an idealistic 'uprising' of nations. Nobles will consider the loss/gain of choosing sides, the Empire that remains certainly wouldn't side with a rouge faction and even the Stormcloaks have basically screwed themselves over because if they win, there'll need to be some major reforms in order to restore order.

 

You can't just win a Civil War and expect to hold out versus the Thalmor. And once the Thalmor have Skyrim, that's a MAJOR strategic point lost to the ONLY faction LARGE enough (because somehow people still underestimate the size of the Thalmor) to win them.

 

Like I said. Unite, intrigue and fight. Or intrigue, unite and fight.

 

This war isn't going to be one wit swords alone, because right now, anyone NOT the Thalmor are pretty screwed. It'll need a shrewd political leader and competent military commander, both which ULFRED is NOT.

 

Why?

 

Because he began by regicide. That's like a big nono in any 'usurp the king' book. Yes, it's the requirement, but you do it near the end, not through foppery and whim. As much as his own people love his idealism, half the other province wants to see his head on a spike as well as the Imperials.

 

He's the bully in the playground who wants the sandbox all to himself.



#62
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Magic isn't an IWIN Button.

 

They got beat in Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. They aren't invincible.

 

Please stop using that blood white thing. It's annoying.

 

And I was on about the pass into Skyrim. Nothing else.

 

Don't strawman me.

 

God, now it's contagious -.-



#63
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You talk as if the Thalmor didn't just finish a huge war in which they lost all troops they had in cyrodiil.

 

 

 

This war isn't going to be one wit swords alone, because right now, anyone NOT the Thalmor are pretty screwed.

 

What are you on about?

 

The war was finished with the Empire slaughtering every last Thalmor in Cyrodiil and their leader hanging from the Imperial city tower for 30 days.

 

It was a stalemate at best.

 

And how do the Thalmor wage a war of attrition against Skyrim when they don't have any friendly settlement near it?



#64
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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You talk as if the Thalmor didn't just finish a huge war in which they lost all troops they had in cyrodiil.

 

What are you on about?

 

The war was finished with the Empire slaughtering every last Thalmor in Cyrodiil and their leader hanging from the Imperial city tower for 30 days.

 

It was a stalemate at best.

 

And how do the Thalmor wage a war of attrition against Skyrim when they don't have any friendly settlement near it?

They had a second, even larger army waiting to come out of the woodwork. 

It was a safer bet for them just to get the White-Gold Concordat signed, for the time being. 

The conquer Cyrodiil. Then Skyrim is conquered within a month. If the Empire falls, the human races' freedom is all but gone. 



#65
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From a Roleplaying persepective, it always makes sense to join the Stormcloaks. (Or at least accompany Ralof in the prologue) The empire did try and kill you, after all.

#66
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Alright, I'll try to explain myself a bit better here.

 

So let us take into consideration that the entirety of TAMRIEL has had its military forces depleted by quite a sum, however, the Thalmor still hold the upper hand since they have managed to maintain their Dominion over conquered lands and still play a huge role in Imperial politics. Let's also acknowledge that the Imperials are waiting for the right moment to strike a counter attack and that the Thalmor know it.

 

In the end a Second War in inevitable.

 

This is why Skyrim needs to be on the Imperial side.

 

The Stormcloaks naively believe that by defeating the 'oppressors' they'll retake their home and restore what was theirs. Ulfred might or might not believe this, but it doesn't take away the fact that what he's doing is selfish, spoilt and stupid.

 

In the scenario that the Stormcloaks win, the country will have been ravaged by the war, the military might severely depleted and the smallfolk sick to their balls of war. They've had ENOUGH, and with a entire province tired and lost in what I'd call that 'come of regret' the Thalmor, who haven't done anything but spectate, need only roll in and that'll be enough.

 

Ulfred is not a messiah, people don't think that way. They won't follow him to the ends of the earth simply out of charisma. This fight has been going on for quite a while and NOTHING has happened. Hell, it takes a 'special dude' to actually do anything. The lords he has placed in their old nobility's stead are most probably there for the profit, nothing more. In the end, relying on the nobles isn't reliable at all. A man's word is worth nothing in the face of an immediate threat.

 

What fight are they going to give the Thalmor if they've JUST finished the last one. You'd be a fool to think that a breather is going to be given. And what can be done?

 

Nothing at all.

 

Hammerfell are probably doing a lot better than the Nords because at least they have a common purpose. They didn't have to slaughter each other to decide who gets to wear the silly hat.

 

Now, let's consider that the Imperial win.

 

The same thing happens.

 

But.

 

The Treaty AND the backup of the rest of the Empire gives them that better chance to actually SURVIVE! Remember, the Stormcloaks are a recent military organisation. The Legion has TONS of veterns and TONS of experience to go with it. Also, if they win, the Lords under Ulfric will simply be replaced by other loyal retainers. I bet there are lots of nobles wanting a position ANYWHERE just to climb the social ladder.

 

So in the end, the Imperials have the man power, the nobility and the resources. The only reason they haven't pushed HARD on Skyrim yet is because the Thalmor are waiting to stick their 12 inch penis up any hole they see fit.

 

It's simple.

 

A house divided will fall. It applies here. And any thought experiment that does NOT involve the Dovahkiin kamehamehamin his way to lololol land results in an obvious lost to the Stormcloaks because in the end, IDEALISM does only so much when you lack men, resources, power and the support of the Nobles when things go to the dump.

 

And no, recruiting 'the people' is not an option.

 

I don't care about INGAME things, no one born in a village knows how to swing an axe because his racial bonus gives him a plus 10 to two-handed weaponry.

 

Don't make me post Septon Meribald's monologue just to explain to you the basics of perspective. Just because you look scary in that chainmail does not mean you're a badass.



#67
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But not impossible. Factor in things like magic and it becomes laughable. Fire, levitation, invisibility... dude, the Thalmor are practically the pimps at magic. Nords are too conservative, especially if the Stormcloaks are in power.

They aren't averse to using magic, we see several references to healers fighting for the Stormcloaks, and I doubt they'd refuse to let mages fight.

 

Anyways, a fight in mountain passes would inevitably come down to hand to hand fighting, and the nords have the advantage there



#68
Kenshen

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As a equal opportunity killer and vampire I don't side with either.  It is more fun getting them to fight each other then finish off whoever is left standing.  I do feel bad for Elisif so if I had to pick one I would roll with the Imperials.



#69
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Imperials.

 

The Stormcloaks are just puppets of the Thalmor.



#70
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Imperials.

 

Mostly because the Stormcloaks have more characters that I despise than they do, but I also think their victory would be better for the long-term.



#71
TheOneTrueBioticGod

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They aren't averse to using magic, we see several references to healers fighting for the Stormcloaks, and I doubt they'd refuse to let mages fight.

 

Anyways, a fight in mountain passes would inevitably come down to hand to hand fighting, and the nords have the advantage there

Actually, game physics give the Altmer greater damage per melee weapon because of their greater height providing more leverage, which goes with laws of mechanics. 

But ignoring that, I see the Stormcloaks fighting the way the Britons did against the Romans. 

They out numbered them ten to one, but they got absolutely slaughtered as the Romans had proper formations and tactics. 

So a Nord let's out a battlecry and charges Dominion formations. He gets shot with lightning or impaled on a spear, 



#72
Dermain

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A land invasion would be hard, the only way in is through a series of mountain passes, very defensible

 

The main problem here is that everyone is forgetting that the TES universe is not averse to teleportation. There is teleportation magic in the universe (though no longer in the game), and it is hihgly probable that the Dominion would make use of it to transport large portions of their army (supplies included).

 

So all this talk about "defensible mountain passes" is moot if the Thalmor successfully teleport their army around the mountain.

 

 

They aren't averse to using magic, we see several references to healers fighting for the Stormcloaks, and I doubt they'd refuse to let mages fight.

 

I imagine it would be something similar to the Dragon Age universes use of mages during wars. They'll use them, but they sure as hell won't like or respect them.



#73
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They say Ulfric Stormcloak murdered the High King, with his voice!  Shouted him apart!



#74
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Like Roman Empire -> Side with the Imperials

Like punkass Visigoths and Vikings -> Side with Ulfreak

 

lol



#75
Pateu

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The main problem here is that everyone is forgetting that the TES universe is not averse to teleportation. There is teleportation magic in the universe (though no longer in the game), and it is hihgly probable that the Dominion would make use of it to transport large portions of their army (supplies included).

 

I'll bring the issue of Hammerfell in, again. If Magic was so haxxed they should have been able to withstand the heat of the desert and the lack of supplies.

 

They still lost.

 

And to cross Skyrim through the Mountains they'd have to first destroy Cyrodiil which in and of itself will take a lot of their troops.