535 réponses à ce sujet

[Br3admax]

She had power. Do not forget that knight commanders (Meredith like gregoir) are always seconds to the Grand Cleric, or whoever is the highest representative of the Chantry in the region. Elthina was the one with the last word. Right in the beginnig of act 3 we see her giving orders to Orsino, Meredith and even Meredith bodyguards!.She didn't move to stop the abuses because she didn't want to: without a viscount she, as representative of the Chantry, was the ruler of Kirkwall. Her genius was in the way she hide her ambition behind the caring grandma facade. She tricked everyone.

If you read the codex, you'd know she's actually does not have power over Meredith anymore. In fact, she makes that pretty clear in dialogue.

[MisterJB]

I was reading a preview for "The Last Flight" and one mage actually killed herself with her own fire spell.

And not by accident, she just put so much power into it against enemies at close range that she ended up burning herself.

No one is safe from magic!

[TheJediSaint]

I was reading a preview for "The Last Flight" and one mage actually killed herself with her own fire spell.

And not by accident, she just put so much power into it against enemies at close range that she ended up burning herself.

No one is safe from magic!

Sounds like she didn't drop enough points in her con stat.

[Gorguz]

Elthina is basically an example of the passive face of the Chantry in my mind. She's a pacifist in not only ideals but action.

Telling Meredith "don't abuse mages" is too much action.

So is stopping Petrice.

Stopping Orsino who is asking the nobles to name a new viscount so that templars stop ruling over Kirkwall, that's suddenly is not too much action. Sure, she acted like she was trying to calm the tension between Orsino and Meredith, but in the end Orsino was sent back to the Gallows with templars as "escorts", and Meredith was dismissed with what sounded like a "calm down, you are frightening the nobles. I can handle this by my self".

[Gorguz]

If you read the codex, you'd know she's actually does not have power over Meredith anymore. In fact, she makes that pretty clear in dialogue.

As long as she has a title, she has power, or there would be an othe Grand Cleric and she would be the former grand cleric. Even Alrik doesn't dare to ignore her position regarding the tranquil solution.

Of course she says she can't do anything. What would you expect, that she tells you smiling "yes, I could stop Meredith. But I don't want to" or "yes, I know some fanatics are trying are to make the qunari snap, but I don't care, maybe I can gain more power with that, after all the biggest army in Kirkwall is mine"?

[Br3admax]

As long as she has a title, she has power, or there would be an othe Grand Cleric and she would be the former grand cleric. Even Alrik doesn't dare to ignore her position regarding the tranquil solution.

Of course she says she can't do anything. What would you expect, that she tells you smiling "yes, I could stop Meredith. But I don't want to" or "yes, I know some fanatics are trying are to make the qunari snap, but I don't care, maybe I can gain more power with that, after all the biggest army in Kirkwall is mine"?

I'm guessing you've never heard of Andrew Jackson. Titles don't mean anything without a means to back it up. 

[Lulupab]

I think one of the devs confirmed that she indeed had the power to cancel annulment order if she was alive.

[LobselVith8]

Fiona is a character I actually look forward to seeing. I think the character has a lot of potential but I think it'll largely depend on her presentation in the story versus how she's presented in the Calling--which is over forty years ago as I reckon time. As a woman in her sixties, I don't expect her to act like she did before and I'd be interesting if we got a more nuanced depiction of her role during the Mage's Rebellion.

 

As a player, I'd like to encounter Fiona in the storyline. She gave up her freedom to return to the Circle and try to help improve the lives of the mages with a course of action that I agree with - independence from the Chantry of Andraste and their Order of Templars. A nuanced insight into her character and her beliefs would be really good. I'm not sure how my Dalish mage, Dwarven rogue, or Vashoth warrior would respond to her, however.

 

Is she still stalwart like a Grey Warden, unintimidated by the Templars? Does this put her at odds with her fellow Mages who HAVEN'T faced legions of Darkspawn?

 

Interesting questions. A strong leader would definitely be interesting to see, particularly after the abysmal depiction of mages in Dragon Age II; I suppose Cullen would be the counterpoint for the templars as well, since they didn't fare any better, either.

 

Is she stunned by the fact she's helped bring a Blight-level disaster to Thedas?

 

You mean the Breach? I think that might be at the hands of our unknown nemesis. If you mean the Fifth Blight, I'd put that on the Architect.

 

Does she mourn the thousands who have died because of her actions? Including many under her command.

 

Based on her previous characterization, Fiona likely mourns the loss of life in the war, but it's an unfortunate truth of war that people will die; if the mages succeed, then future generations can benefit from the stand taken by people like Fiona. Thankfully, the protagonist can side with either the templars or the mages, and help either side achieve victory.

 

I think I'm willing to give Bioware a chance in writing the answers to all this.

 

I'd also like to see an answer to these questions.

 

Elthina is basically an example of the passive face of the Chantry in my mind. She's a pacifist in not only ideals but action.

Telling Meredith "don't abuse mages" is too much action.

So is stopping Petrice.

 

Elthina's passivity about the problems with the Templar Order, despite being Meredith's superior, certainly didn't endear me to the Grand Cleric. Even her codex reads, "People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."

[Hellion Rex]

I think one of the devs confirmed that she indeed had the power to cancel annulment order if she was alive.

Yes, Elthina could have, if she was still living.

[Gorguz]

I'm guessing you've never heard of Andrew Jackson. Titles don't mean anything without a means to back it up. 

Yeah, ok, Elthina didn't have any power. Sometimes, when she needed, she could impose her will because of her status. That's not power though! Even if she controls the templars, the biggest army of the city, she doesn't have weight in Kirkwall. She was powerless, she said that, and as lovely grandma she can't lie or contraddict herself, despite the in game evidences. The Divine needed a powerless and incompetent person to supervision the Free Marches.

That's it, I'm done arguing with you, you can't see reason.

[Br3admax]

Yeah, ok, Elthina didn't have any power. Sometimes, when she needed, she could impose her will because of her status. That's not power though! Even if she controls the templars, the biggest army of the city, she doesn't have weight in Kirkwall. She was powerless, she said that, and as lovely grandma she can't lie or contraddict herself, despite the in game evidences. The Divine needed a powerless and incompetent person to supervision the Free Marches.
That's it, I'm done arguing with you, you can't see reason.

It's takes a lot less effort to write, "my opinions> facts in game." One she held the power, but after the trouble with the previous viscount, she gave most of this up. Meredith only really listens to her because the people do, and she respects her, but if Meredith really wanted to, she really wouldn't have to.

[Aimi]

The separation from chantry is the important factor here and it was the main concern of Fiona. The circles should exist and mages must be confined but they should decide their own fate because the chantry dictates everything. For example if we are looking at things rather courteously, say mages are unhappy with a certain Templar who patrols inside the circle. The mages should have the power to replace this Templar by sending him to outside patrol and bringing in another one for the same duty. This is just a simple example and there are many more to be made. Whatever decisions mages make they will be ones affected by it. And the Templars have volunteered.

That's all well and good, and it's important for any society to prevent abuses like unilateral Tranquility. But mages having control over templar appointments is exactly the sort of thing that non-mages would go ape over. That's precisely how the Tevinter Imperium - noted dystopian maleficar-run slave state - functions. At Minrathous, mage influence over templar appointments eventually gave way to total control over the one check on mage power that non-mages had.

If you're trying to convince the Chantry to loosen controls on mages, that's the wrong argument to use.

[TK514]

Yeah, ok, Elthina didn't have any power. Sometimes, when she needed, she could impose her will because of her status. That's not power though! Even if she controls the templars, the biggest army of the city, she doesn't have weight in Kirkwall. She was powerless, she said that, and as lovely grandma she can't lie or contraddict herself, despite the in game evidences. The Divine needed a powerless and incompetent person to supervision the Free Marches.

That's it, I'm done arguing with you, you can't see reason.

 

 

It's takes a lot less effort to write, "my opinions> facts in game." One she held the power, but after the trouble with the previous viscount, she gave most of this up. Meredith only really listens to her because the people do, and she respects her, but if Meredith really wanted to, she really wouldn't have to.

 

In theory, Elthina had Legitimate, or 'positional', power due to her rank in the Chantry Hierarchy.  She was, technically, Meredith's superior.  However, by Act 3, that became meaningless as Meredith had entirely tossed out her willingness to abide by such power structures, as evidenced in her usurpation of the Viscount's authority.  Elthina's positional power mattered little.

 

She also, in the eyes of many, including Meredith, possessed Referent Power, which is built on personal loyalty and respect.  This was the only thing really keeping Meredith in check in Act 3.  While the Templars may have obeyed Elthina out of respect, it was Meredith who really controlled them, and she could have ordered them to ignore the Grand Cleric at any time and they would have.  It was only Meredith's loyalty to Elthina that allowed the Grand Cleric any say at all, and had Elthina pushed too hard, damaging that respect, Meredith would have run over her in a heartbeat.

 

So, Elthina may not have been completely powerless by the time Act 3 came around, but she did have to use a very, very light touch.

[Lulupab]

That's all well and good, and it's important for any society to prevent abuses like unilateral Tranquility. But mages having control over templar appointments is exactly the sort of thing that non-mages would go ape over. That's precisely how the Tevinter Imperium - noted dystopian maleficar-run slave state - functions. At Minrathous, mage influence over templar appointments eventually gave way to total control over the one check on mage power that non-mages had.If you're trying to convince the Chantry to loosen controls on mages, that's the wrong argument to use.

The difference is the Imperial chantry thinks magic is important and their divine is a male mage.

If mages decide to meddle in politics, I mean other than their own politics, then each circle should face the consequences on its own as the circles are no longer connected via chantry so their actions represent their own circle not all mages, therefore we will not have another Tevinter.

[Aimi]

The difference is the Imperial chantry thinks magic is important and their divine is a male mage.

If mages decide to meddle in politics, I mean other than their own politics, then each circle should face the consequences on its own as the circles are no longer connected via chantry so their actions represent their own circle not all mages, therefore we will not have another Tevinter.

Face what consequences? If Circles control the templars, there would presumably be no consequences.

The mages that hold power in Tevinter are #NotAllMages either. The worry isn't that all mages will gain control over all non-mages, the worry is that any mages will gain control over everybody else. I infer from what you said that you don't believe it's a big deal if one or two Circles "meddle in politics" so long as not all the Circles do. That, uh, doesn't make any sense: one or two is too many as far the Chantry is concerned.

[Lulupab]

Face what consequences? If Circles control the templars, there would presumably be no consequences.The mages that hold power in Tevinter are #NotAllMages either. The worry isn't that all mages will gain control over all non-mages, the worry is that any mages will gain control over everybody else. I infer from what you said that you don't believe it's a big deal if one or two Circles "meddle in politics" so long as not all the Circles do. That, uh, doesn't make any sense: one or two is too many as far the Chantry is concerned.

But I never said the self control should be limitless. For example Mages cannot decide how many Templars are going to watch them but they can decide who gets which post. Again it wont happen out of the blue, someone proposes it, Enchanters talk it over and decide just like how a problem is solved in a confederation based government. In other words A Templar must have done something to provoke such a thing.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

For the whole Mage-Templar War, I'm still hoping that there is something of a Peace option like with the Geth and Quarians in Mass Effect 3. 

 

If not, then it depends:

If Fiona is alive and leading, most likely will side with the Mages for the conflict.

If Fiona is no longer alive, then it depends on how each side presents itself.

[Aimi]

But I never said the self control should be limitless. For example Mages cannot decide how many Templars are going to watch them but they can decide who gets which post. Again it wont happen out of the blue, someone proposes it, Enchanters talk it over and decide just like how a problem is solved in a confederation based government. In other words A Templar must have done something to provoke such a thing.

If they can determine who is actually watching them, they can influence those appointments to ensure that sympathetic persons get the jobs and unsympathetic persons do not. If the only check against your bad behavior is somebody who owes their job to you, that is not really a check at all, is it?

If it's just that mages can request non-binding personnel adjustments, that's different - but it's also pretty much the exact system that already exists.

[Willowhugger]

My take on the subject is that Elthina was a "party line" sort of Chantry mage. Her job was to preserve the status quo in Kirkwall much like the Grand Clerics of everywhere else probably did the same there. She's a conservative example of the Andrastrian Chantry and that means that she supports the mages in the Circle but not being abused. The Chantry supports "a gilded prison" so to speak. So her job was to play referee between the Templars and Mages, making it so the Templars never went too far but also never making it so the Mages had anything close to freedom. Orsino and Meredith had a great deal of respect for her, or faked it at least, but the situation was deteriorating by that point to unbreachable levels.

I also think the Expanded Universe implies the Chantry and Templars had been moving away from some time. The Divine (former Revered Mother Dorothea) shows what happens when the Divine takes a firm stance against one side or the other. Blood Mages and Templars tried to kill her in the movie and Lambert turned against her wholesale. If it wasn't Anders, really, it would have been someone else.

[Willowhugger]

If they can determine who is actually watching them, they can influence those appointments to ensure that sympathetic persons get the jobs and unsympathetic persons do not. If the only check against your bad behavior is somebody who owes their job to you, that is not really a check at all, is it?

If it's just that mages can request non-binding personnel adjustments, that's different - but it's also pretty much the exact system that already exists.

It's pretty clear Mages and Templars will both screw the other over if left unchecked. Which is why we need the Inquisition.

The problem is the Seekers SHOULD be fulfilling the "Who watches the Watchers" role but they were more militant and anti-mage than the Templars.

[Shadow Fox]

In theory, Elthina had Legitimate, or 'positional', power due to her rank in the Chantry Hierarchy.  She was, technically, Meredith's superior.  However, by Act 3, that became meaningless as Meredith had entirely tossed out her willingness to abide by such power structures, as evidenced in her usurpation of the Viscount's authority.  Elthina's positional power mattered little.

 

She also, in the eyes of many, including Meredith, possessed Referent Power, which is built on personal loyalty and respect.  This was the only thing really keeping Meredith in check in Act 3.  While the Templars may have obeyed Elthina out of respect, it was Meredith who really controlled them, and she could have ordered them to ignore the Grand Cleric at any time and they would have.  It was only Meredith's loyalty to Elthina that allowed the Grand Cleric any say at all, and had Elthina pushed too hard, damaging that respect, Meredith would have run over her in a heartbeat.

 

So, Elthina may not have been completely powerless by the time Act 3 came around, but she did have to use a very, very light touch.

Meredith: "You've been poisoned by bloooood magic!"

[Master Warder Z_]

Meredith: "You've been poisoned by bloooood magic!"

 

Even crazy Meredith never crossed her.

 

I honestly think it was her that kept Meredith from losing the few shreds of sanity the idol left her.

[Dean_the_Young]

The separation from chantry is the important factor here and it was the main concern of Fiona. The circles should exist and mages must be confined but they should decide their own fate because the chantry dictates everything. For example if we are looking at things rather courteously, say mages are unhappy with a certain Templar who patrols inside the circle. The mages should have the power to replace this Templar by sending him to outside patrol and bringing in another one for the same duty. This is just a simple example and there are many more to be made. Whatever decisions mages make they will be ones affected by it. And the Templars have volunteered.

Mages are kept like living weapons who are called upon when needed, its wrong on so many levels. After the separation each circle will be like a nation and when Thedas needs help they will decide how to aid others, they will also decide how many of their brethren should join the grey wardens. This way no nation can use mages to fight other nations, because for example the circle in Orlais DOES NOT belong to Orlais, its an independent nation of mages and therefore its not obligated to aid Orlais in attacking Ferelden. Using mages in a war between nations only brings catastrophe and destruction and must be avoided at all costs.

Also the circles will not be based on bloody Gallows (just look at the name ffs) a scene that horrified every single man woman and child when they saw it. And lets be honest here, life is not fair and mages are born with extra gifts and are precious so they actually deserve better living conditions.

 

This is entirely unrelated and irrelevant to the subject and topic of what you quoted, which is whether the Circles are autonomous or ruled  by the Templars.

[Master Warder Z_]

This is entirely unrelated and irrelevant to the subject and topic of what you quoted, which is whether the Circles are autonomous or ruled  by the Templars.

 

I take it this surprises no one.

[Lulupab]

This is entirely unrelated and irrelevant to the subject and topic of what you quoted, which is whether the Circles are autonomous or ruled  by the Templars.

How so? In short I said the Chantry had the circles in its grasp which grants automatic authority to Templars as well, even if its indirect sometimes.