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Fiona. Alistairs potential mother.


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#351
Dean_the_Young

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In theory, Elthina had Legitimate, or 'positional', power due to her rank in the Chantry Hierarchy.  She was, technically, Meredith's superior.  However, by Act 3, that became meaningless as Meredith had entirely tossed out her willingness to abide by such power structures, as evidenced in her usurpation of the Viscount's authority.  Elthina's positional power mattered little.

 

She also, in the eyes of many, including Meredith, possessed Referent Power, which is built on personal loyalty and respect.  This was the only thing really keeping Meredith in check in Act 3.  While the Templars may have obeyed Elthina out of respect, it was Meredith who really controlled them, and she could have ordered them to ignore the Grand Cleric at any time and they would have.  It was only Meredith's loyalty to Elthina that allowed the Grand Cleric any say at all, and had Elthina pushed too hard, damaging that respect, Meredith would have run over her in a heartbeat.

 

So, Elthina may not have been completely powerless by the time Act 3 came around, but she did have to use a very, very light touch.

This is a view I've always held, and was one of the reasons I always viewed Act 3 a bit more positively than many BSNers after DA2 came out. A great many people hated/condemned Elthina as a useless/incompetent/lazy person who wouldn't excercise her power to remove Meredith/bring her into line because -reasons-, but I always found it far more interesting to view it in the context of someone who holds a broken leash. She only had as much power over Meredith as Meredith allowed her- and the only way the pretense could be maintained is if she didn't break the illusion. So everyone, in and out of universe, was proscribing her with far more power than she actually had available.

 

It's interesting, even fascinating, and it makes the common argument of 'a Seeker should have come along, seen the obvious problem, and removed Meredith' far more interesting when you ask the question of 'When?' Meredith wasn't a loose canon for the entirety of the time period, nor was the Circle unbearable (Anders aside) and systemically broke. If a Seeker were to come by before the problems got big post-Qunari... why would they view Meredith as the problem?

 

Elthina is an idealist, or at least driven by morals, but she was also a politician. Her handling of Petrice, in either scenario, is one of my favorite moments of the game. But it also begs the question of the unexplored personal history between her and Meredith, as well as the question of why the Chantry allowed the Templars to have so much influence. To me, the obvious answer would be because the Templar influence benefited the Chantry in many ways... and that's a story I wish had been told, because it could have cast Meredith in a different light.

 

Imagine this perspective for a Seeker who comes by Kirkwall in the time before the Qunari invasion- before the idol and the insanity and the seizure of power.

 

We have a woman. A strong, steadfast, and loyal woman, who holds both herself and her followers to high standards. When a Viscount directly attacks the Chantry by executing the Knight Commander and attempting to cast out the Templars (from a city with a Circle no less), this woman leads the charge to secure the international order. She places a decent man, and one sympathetic to the Chantry and its interests, as Viscount, and returns to her duties and enforcing the laws of the Templars, laws that have been allowed to lax. She tackles corruption, cracking down on Templar blind eyes and greedy palms to the point that the difficulty (and the cost) for apostate smuggling in and out of the city to the point that only the nobility can reliably safeguard them. She appoints a promising and implicitly capable veteran of the Ferelden Circle incident as her second, and he soon shows initiative and insight by investigating and helping stop a maleficar plot to infiltrate the Templar ranks with demons. When approached by a radical senior Templar about invoking and illegal and extreme Tranquil Solution, she categorically rejects it to the point that his subsequent actions are done in total secrecy and through the blackmail of other Templars to avoid her attention. When a neighboring Circle burns down, she enables and assists the sudden and unplanned incorporation of the mages into her Circle, while sending Templars to successfully track down would-be apostates (led by a maleficar, no less). When racial tensions with Qunari visitors rise, she properly and helpfully remains discrete and neutral, helpfully not flanning the flames and tensions but also maintaining a capable and ready force to rapidly intervene and protect the city should tensions boil over.

 

What, exactly, would a Seeker (or Elthina, or anyone in the Chantry) remove her for at this point? Because she and her First Enchanter don't like each other?

 

 

Come Act 3, things have certainly changed, but there also remain a number of points that could be argued in her favor before any investigator comes to remove her... assuming that they could remove her without igniting the powder keg such a removal would be intended to prevent.


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#352
Dean_the_Young

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How so? In short I said the Chantry had the circles in its grasp which grants automatic authority to Templars as well, even if its indirect sometimes.

 

In short, you made a lot of points and preferences that have nothing to do with whether the Circles have autonomy or not. None of your points countered, contested, or even addressed my post. Your post would have had just as much relevance and internal consistency had it not even quoted my own.

 

Templar authority is limited in what it can and can not impose on the mages. More importantly, it is limited in ways that allow and preserve the Circles ability to make autonomous internal decisions and policies within the scope of prescribed autonomous sphere. The mages can not claim or make independent policies, but autonomy does not and never has meant independence.

 

Autonomy can exist within a grasp/cage/limitation/any metaphor you wish.



#353
Shadow Fox

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And lets be honest here, life is not fair and mages are born with extra gifts and are precious so they actually deserve better living conditions.

No they don't.



#354
Willowhugger

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No they don't.

 

I dunno, it depends on whether they use their abilities to help others. I'm okay with Mages living like Kings if they are healers.

God knows, they do more for people than actual kings tend to do.

Barring Alistair.



#355
Shadow Fox

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I dunno, it depends on whether they use their abilities to help others. I'm okay with Mages living like Kings if they are healers.

God knows, they do more for people than actual kings tend to do.

Barring Alistair.

No they don't deserve anything just because they have magic.



#356
Willowhugger

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In short, you made a lot of points and preferences that have nothing to do with whether the Circles have autonomy or not. None of your points countered, contested, or even addressed my post. Your post would have had just as much relevance and internal consistency had it not even quoted my own.

 

Templar authority is limited in what it can and can not impose on the mages. More importantly, it is limited in ways that allow and preserve the Circles ability to make autonomous internal decisions and policies within the scope of prescribed autonomous sphere. The mages can not claim or make independent policies, but autonomy does not and never has meant independence.

 

Autonomy can exist within a grasp/cage/limitation/any metaphor you wish.

 

To actually treat the issue raised seriously, the issue of whether the Circles should have autonomy boils down to two simple points. I call them "The Fenris point" and the "Uldred point." They'll be counteracted by the Anders point and the Fiona point.

 

1. The Fenris Point is that mages have access to dangerous abilities which allow them to abuse people without these abilities and, human nature being what it is, there will be people who abuse these abilities. It's not so much that mages are good or evil but that a single individual evil mage can do a lot more evil than a regular person and that sort of action can cause otherwise good people to do evil things. Look at the nobility? Warriors become dictators and run a protection racket on the peasants because they have swords.

 

2. The Uldred Point is that even talented and trained mages on their own have the potential of causing a full-blown invasion from the Fade. Connor shows why the Circles should exist period but Uldred shows why they should be supervised because mages can screw up in fairly epic ways. Having someone watch for corruption outside of mages themselves is a good idea.

 

Counteracting this is...

 

1. Anders Point: That all people deserve to be free (though he never expresses this and only seems to care about mages). That the Chantry has forfeited ANY claim to being able to rule mages due to the barbaric practices like the Rite of Tranquility and the abuse mages suffer. That, also, things like locking up all mages actually ENCOURAGES maleficar and demon-worship.

 

2. The Fiona Point is a bit more simple than Anders. That mages ARE powerful and ARE dangerous. So why should they submit to the rulership of other beings because of this power? Why restrict them from using their abilities for the greater good out of misguided fear? Why should the majority have a say over the actions of a minority if they don't have the power to enforce it should the minority exist?

I'm inclined to agree with Fiona and Anders but note Uldred's point is pretty good. That mages can get very arrogant about their powers and need someone to back them up. There's also a LOT of middle-ground between "locking up mages under Templar death squads" and "Mages should have no system of control over them because FREEDOM."

I favor the X-men solution, personally.


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#357
Willowhugger

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No they don't deserve anything just because they have magic.

 

No, they deserve basic dignity because they're people. They might EARN privilege because magic is the most useful skill on Earth.


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#358
Shadow Fox

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No, they deserve basic dignity because they're people. They might EARN privilege because magic is the most useful skill on Earth.

Exactly.



#359
Dean_the_Young

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To actually treat the issue raised seriously, the issue of whether the Circles should have autonomy boils down to two simple points. I call them "The Fenris point" and the "Uldred point." They'll be counteracted by the Anders point and the Fiona point.

 

1. The Fenris Point is that mages have access to dangerous abilities which allow them to abuse people without these abilities and, human nature being what it is, there will be people who abuse these abilities. It's not so much that mages are good or evil but that a single individual evil mage can do a lot more evil than a regular person and that sort of action can cause otherwise good people to do evil things. Look at the nobility? Warriors become dictators and run a protection racket on the peasants because they have swords.

 

2. The Uldred Point is that even talented and trained mages on their own have the potential of causing a full-blown invasion from the Fade. Connor shows why the Circles should exist period but Uldred shows why they should be supervised because mages can screw up in fairly epic ways. Having someone watch for corruption outside of mages themselves is a good idea.

 

Counteracting this is...

 

1. Anders Point: That all people deserve to be free (though he never expresses this and only seems to care about mages). That the Chantry has forfeited ANY claim to being able to rule mages due to the barbaric practices like the Rite of Tranquility and the abuse mages suffer. That, also, things like locking up all mages actually ENCOURAGES maleficar and demon-worship.

 

2. The Fiona Point is a bit more simple than Anders. That mages ARE powerful and ARE dangerous. So why should they submit to the rulership of other beings because of this power? Why restrict them from using their abilities for the greater good out of misguided fear? Why should the majority have a say over the actions of a minority if they don't have the power to enforce it should the minority exist?

I'm inclined to agree with Fiona and Anders but note Uldred's point is pretty good. That mages can get very arrogant about their powers and need someone to back them up. There's also a LOT of middle-ground between "locking up mages under Templar death squads" and "Mages should have no system of control over them because FREEDOM."

I favor the X-men solution, personally.

 Arguing merits of 'should' is irrelevant to 'do they have autonomy?'

 

None of these have any relevance to whether the Circles, as they have existed, allow mages autonomy.



#360
Aimi

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Arguing merits of 'should' is irrelevant to 'do they have autonomy?'


"Don't 'should' me, Hugh, cause I'll 'should' you right back. I'll 'should' you right through that window. None of this 'should' be happening, should it? Should it?"

"Is that 'should' in the sense of 'yes'?"

"It's 'should' in the sense of 'you should do as you're f***ing told'!"

#361
Willowhugger

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 Arguing merits of 'should' is irrelevant to 'do they have autonomy?'

 

None of these have any relevance to whether the Circles, as they have existed, allow mages autonomy.

 

Your definition of autonomy is different from mine. Autonomy does not exist in a society where you cannot choose to raise your own children, have children, be judged according to your own laws, fight against your own enemies versus the enemies of the Chantry, or leave a building without permission.

 

Any autonomy that requires you to not be able to love who you want, fight who you want (or not), or live without fear of execution by laws you agree with is no autonomy which has any sort of resemblance to the kind in the dictionary.

 

It's Newspeak.

 

"Freedom is slavery."

 

Explain to me, seriously, how ANYONE can argue autonomy exists if you can't leave a FRIGGING BUILDING without someone else's permission?



#362
Aimi

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Your definition of autonomy is different from mine.


Probably because you view 'autonomy' as an absolute, specific (and therefore arbitrary) set of conditions and rights. That's an idiosyncratic definition.

By comparison, Dean is pointing out areas in which mages possess any freedom of action or ability to self-govern. Dean's working definition is a lot closer to the way people tend use 'autonomy' in the real world: a graded continuum.
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#363
Dean_the_Young

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Your definition of autonomy is different from mine.

Very likely because your definition of autonomy, at least as indicated by the things you think autonomy includes, is wrong.

 

Autonomy doesn't protect what you think autonomy should mean.
 

 

Autonomy does not exist in a society where you cannot choose to raise your own children

 

 

Yes it can. Political autonomy doesn't require any specific family policy.
 

 

, have children,

 

Besides that mages can have children and are not forced to abort, yes it can.
.

 

be judged according to your own laws,

 

 

Yes it can- autonomous groups can have both internal and external rules and regulations. In fact, most autonomous units do live with external restrictions (and oversight).
 

 

fight against your own enemies versus the enemies of the Chantry,

 

...what?

 

Mages aren't forced to fight for the Chantry, and it's not clear what other enemies they have (except those who believe the Chantry itself is the enemy).

 

Besides which... a lack of independent military authority and policy is often one of the most common elements of an autonomous unit. Military and foreign policy are often the first things traded in away in exchange for the internal autonomy of autonomous communities.

 

 

or leave a building without permission.

 

 

Damn straight it can. Autonomy refers to the space of action within the confines of the unit- even if the unit is restricted within geographical boundaries.
 

 

Any autonomy that requires you to not be able to love who you want, fight who you want (or not), or live without fear of execution by laws you agree with is no autonomy which has any sort of resemblance to the kind in the dictionary.

 

It's Newspeak.

 

 

British Dictionary definitions for autonomy
autonomy
/ɔːˈtɒnəmɪ/

noun (pl) -mies

1.
the right or state of self-government, esp when limited

 

 

Autonomy is compatible with limitations. It does not require any of your list of preferences.
 

 

 

"Freedom is slavery."

 

Explain to me, seriously, how ANYONE can argue autonomy exists if you can't leave a FRIGGING BUILDING without someone else's permission?

 

Because the Circle's autonomy exists within the confines of the Circle, and not outside it.

 

This is the same concept of the geographical limitations of sovereignty- a country is still independent even if it can't cross the borders of any/all of its neighbors.



#364
Gorguz

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In theory, Elthina had Legitimate, or 'positional', power due to her rank in the Chantry Hierarchy.  She was, technically, Meredith's superior.  However, by Act 3, that became meaningless as Meredith had entirely tossed out her willingness to abide by such power structures, as evidenced in her usurpation of the Viscount's authority.  Elthina's positional power mattered little.

 

She also, in the eyes of many, including Meredith, possessed Referent Power, which is built on personal loyalty and respect.  This was the only thing really keeping Meredith in check in Act 3.  While the Templars may have obeyed Elthina out of respect, it was Meredith who really controlled them, and she could have ordered them to ignore the Grand Cleric at any time and they would have.  It was only Meredith's loyalty to Elthina that allowed the Grand Cleric any say at all, and had Elthina pushed too hard, damaging that respect, Meredith would have run over her in a heartbeat.

 

So, Elthina may not have been completely powerless by the time Act 3 came around, but she did have to use a very, very light touch.

The abuses started well before act 3. People complain about Meredith from act 1, when she wasn't even mad. And who put Meredith in charge? It was Elthina.


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#365
TK514

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The abuses started well before act 3. People complain about Meredith from act 1, when she wasn't even mad. And who put Meredith in charge? It was Elthina.

The abuses were explicitly being hidden from the leadership.

 

People's complaints about Meredith prior to Act 3 were because she was a hardass with a lot of influence, not because she was doing anything illegal.


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#366
Willowhugger

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Very well.

I support self-rule for mages and basic rights which do not conflict with the public good like having kids and a social life.



#367
LobselVith8

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So pro-templar players advocate pro-templar options, and pro-mage players support pro-mage options. And people disagree, as usual, about what would be the correct course of action for the Circles.

 

So... is anyone interested in civilly discussing Fiona, the character who is the actual topic of discussion?


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#368
Willowhugger

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So pro-templar players advocate pro-templar options, and pro-mage players support pro-mage options. And people disagree, as usual, about what would be the correct course of action for the Circles.

 

So... is anything interested in civilly discussing Fiona, the character who is the actual topic of discussion?

 

To be honest, I don't think there's enough to go on what she's like.

 

30 years is a long time for a character to change.



#369
Kieran G.

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So pro-templar players advocate pro-templar options, and pro-mage players support pro-mage options. And people disagree, as usual, about what would be the correct course of action for the Circles.

 

So... is anything interested in civilly discussing Fiona, the character who is the actual topic of discussion?

it happens, you start a thread about a mage or a templar people start arguing. a lot of people are pretty Defensive about their beliefs.



#370
Lulupab

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it happens, you start a thread about a mage or a templar people start arguing. a lot of people are pretty Defensive about their beliefs.


When I first saw your thread I swear I knew EXACTLY who would come in and bash Fiona. Old habits die hard.

#371
Kieran G.

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When I first saw your thread I swear I knew EXACTLY who would come in and bash Fiona. Old habits die hard.

People like to argue, and some people are extremest, on both sides. just like in the game, so of course they would come and either say she is a saint and every mage should be like her, or she is a dumb ****** who needs to be burned. it just happens with any character. you see the same with Celene or Gaspard.



#372
Master Warder Z_

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Fiona is an easy target for mockery, i mean she makes it exceedingly easy.


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#373
The Baconer

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Meredith couldn't even search the rooms and private property of her own tower, when she was at the height of her already highly disproportionate and barely restrained power. Even liberal democracies have governments that can do that.

 

She absolutely could have. Why she chose not to out of some sense of courtesy is a different matter.



#374
TK514

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I don't really have anything else to say about Fiona.  My dislike of her as a character has nothing do to with her being a mage, because I'd have the same issues if she were a Templar, a Noble, a Dalish, or pretty much anything else.  I consider her that badly written.

 

If she dies in the initial explosion, I will be pleased to be rid of her.  If she doesn't, I will do everything I can to ignore her.  If I cannot ignore her, I will do what I can to remove her from my playable version of the Dragon Age setting.


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#375
LobselVith8

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I don't really have anything else to say about Fiona.  My dislike of her as a character has nothing do to with her being a mage, because I'd have the same issues if she were a Templar, a Noble, a Dalish, or pretty much anything else.  I consider her that badly written.

 

If she dies in the initial explosion, I will be pleased to be rid of her.  If she doesn't, I will do everything I can to ignore her.  If I cannot ignore her, I will do what I can to remove her from my playable version of the Dragon Age setting.

 

Do you think it's possible another writer (perhaps Kirby) might make you feel differently about Fiona?