147 réponses à ce sujet

[Kage]

Hey guys,

 

There are tons of topics of rage about the 8-limit abilities, but I think we are losing one of the main points.

In DAI, the gameplay has changed a lot again, it is different from DAO and DA2 altogether. In DAI, the gameplay will focus on planification, setting up the strategy before engaging in combat, or even exploring an area.

 

There are several game mechanics that reinforce this:

- Limited health regen

- Only 8 abilities available during combat

- Huge and versatile crafting system

- Limited amount of potions carried

- Limited amount of poisons/bombs carried

- Impossible to craft outside camps/settlements

- Huge areas to explore, in which we will be able to settle new camps, and then explore from there

 

What do you think about this new gameplay, totally new for Dragon Age? Do you like it? Think it fits?

 

In my opinion, I really like the exploring aspect, and I am really interested in seeing how it will work. Health regen, limited potions, setting up camps, exploring step by step, seems really interesting and fun, if the combats are not too easy. I do not mind backtracking from time to time if the world is huge and fun to explore.

 

However, I do not like the planning aspect, the 8-limit abilities, select which poison to take with you, etc. I cannot see how it is going to work. It's been said there will be scouts and will tell us what we will face, but Im not sure Im gonna like it. I am afraid that this aspect will just end up with us mapping always the same abilities (the ones that are good in all situations) and selecting only the best poison (making the rest of them totally worthless). We will see how it ends.

 

One thing is for sure, they really like to explore new mechanics in their DAs xD

[Dubya75]

I'm very excited about this deeper and more complex game! It's easy to start bitching about the limited this and limited that, but the Bioware team has been working on this game for almost 4 years! I'll put my faith in them that they know what they are doing and that they will deliver the best RPG experience ever.

[Alodar]

Hey guys,

 

There are tons of topics of rage about the 8-limit abilities, but I think we are losing one of the main points.

In DAI, the gameplay has changed a lot again, it is different from DAO and DA2 altogether. In DAI, the gameplay will focus on planification, setting up the strategy before engaging in combat, or even exploring an area.

 

There are several game mechanics that reinforce this:

- Limited health regen

- Only 8 abilities available during combat

- Huge and versatile crafting system

- Limited amount of potions carried

- Limited amount of poisons/bombs carried

- Impossible to craft outside camps/settlements

- Huge areas to explore, in which we will be able to settle new camps, and then explore from there

 

What do you think about this new gameplay, totally new for Dragon Age? Do you like it? Think it fits?

 

In my opinion, I really like the exploring aspect, and I am really interested in seeing how it will work. Health regen, limited potions, setting up camps, exploring step by step, seems really interesting and fun, if the combats are not too easy. I do not mind backtracking from time to time if the world is huge and fun to explore.

 

However, I do not like the planning aspect, the 8-limit abilities, select which poison to take with you, etc. I cannot see how it is going to work. It's been said there will be scouts and will tell us what we will face, but Im not sure Im gonna like it. I am afraid that this aspect will just end up with us mapping always the same abilities (the ones that are good in all situations) and selecting only the best poison (making the rest of them totally worthless). We will see how it ends.

 

One thing is for sure, they really like to explore new mechanics in their DAs xD

 

 

Just a quick clarification on Strategy and Tactics.

 

 

In military usage, strategy is the utilization, during both peace and war, of all of a nation's forces, through large-scale, long-range planning and development, to ensure security or victory. Tactics is the military science that deals with securing objectives set by strategy, especially the technique of deploying and directing troops in effective maneuvers against an enemy.

 

 

So in terms of the game your Strategy is which allies you choose to make, who you choose to attack, and what resources and armies you choose to build. Tactics is how you employ those resources to make those allies, and attack your enemies.

 

Part of building those resources is when you choose abilities for you characters. The strategy you use to choose those abilities determines what and who your characters can be effective against. For example if your strategy was to choose only fire spells for mages, then that strategy would fail if your forces encountered fire resistant creatures. A very effective strategy would be to choose many different kinds of damage and many different kinds of crowd control so your forces would always have winning tactics available to them.

 

The limitation of 8 usable abilities per encounter does not offer any additional strategy whatsoever. In fact it nullifies the strategic decisions that you made when choosing abilities for your characters.

 

 

 

By limiting the number of abilities in any one combat to 8, BioWare has also reduced the number of tactics you can employ in any one combat. Because it eliminates tactical choices that would otherwise be available to you it impedes your ability to use the best tactics for any given situation.

 

It's the equivalent of choosing to fight only left handed or to leave your sword holstered for the next combat and only use your shield. It's a arbitrary limitation that reduces your tactical choices and makes you less effective.

 

 

 

 

 

TLDR: Limiting combat to 8 abilities is neither strategic or tactical. It nullifies the strategic choices you made and artificially reduces your tactical options for the sole purpose of making you less effective in any given combat.

[themageguy]

I came into this topic thinking a new video had been released

[fchopin]

Reducing abilities to 8 has nothing to do with strategy.
The reason is probably MP related and if that is correct then this is much worse than the ME3 MP requirement to get the best ending.

[themageguy]

Reducing abilities to 8 has nothing to do with strategy.
The reason is probably MP related and if that is correct then this is much worse than the ME3 MP requirement to get the best ending.

I don't think its that bad at all, especially as bioware has done the right thing and damp separate from sp. That's a great thing.

[Shin_Seijurou]

Reducing abilities to 8 has nothing to do with strategy.
The reason is probably MP related and if that is correct then this is much worse than the ME3 MP requirement to get the best ending.

Well, that's clearly false, since DAMP has only 4 mapped abilities aside from potions and poisons, and in SP you have 8 slots + poisons.

[fchopin]

Well, that's clearly false, since DAMP has only 4 mapped abilities aside from potions and poisons, and in SP you have 8 slots + poisons.

Then why are we getting a limit of 8 abilities if it is not MP related?

[SofaJockey]

The devs have been play-testing this for a year or more on all platforms.

If the tactics were broken this would not be like this.

 

It's a change, for sure.

 

But without playing the game you can't really evaluate its impact.

[Warden Commander Aeducan]

The title is so misleading, and there I was expecting an actual gameplay video.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

BW is unable to create clever, intuitive and balanced combat system on their own. it can be quite solid but shrugworthy at best (ME, DA:O, BG), downright terrible (DA2) or awkward hybrid which may need getting used to (KotOR, NWN). it's a good thing they try to experiment; shame they've started using fps as a template for rpg... maybe they understand combat and gameplay are not their best features? maybe they decided to focus on writing/story/chars/cutscenes and so forth?

 

i don't mind limitations usually, but i'm kinda afraid of the implications... it could mean more restricted, role-oriented party with specific skill set (tank, dps, cc-er, debuffer) - the chars are developed in specific way - 'planned', if you will, but don't require skill rotation; or skill adjustment every encounter on higher levels (which would artificially extend the game lenght). the first option seems more logical but party roles force player to balance the party (bring a tank, a dps and a healer to win this battle or struggle for half a day).

i cannot imagine soloing the game either way and i consider that a serious flaw. whether it's really a problem - i shall see in November (or December, if game reviewers take their time)

 

i snorted at limited potions - i always try to save them for the 'hard fight'... and when it finally comes, it turns out to be no that hard, and i'm over encumbered from the loot and all those bloody potions. knowing me tho... i'll be starting fights below 20% hp cuz i refuse to use that precious liquid.

 

very interested in this whole exploration thingy tho, i hope they put more meat on it too (the usuall: random encounters, easter eggs, crafting oriented quests which require 'lost' artifacts or whatever; it's not procedural, irrc - they released a interview with level designer once, there was something about creating levels manually)

exploration alone can become boring after a while.

[EnergizerBunny211]

While everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I am not saying this to be snide or disrespectful to anyone- but why can't we (and by 'we' I mean everyone including myself) just, firstly, wait until we actually play the game on our respective systesms of choice before we start complaining, and take everything the game has to offer (its good points and its not-so-good points (or those we deem 'not so good) and simply enjoy the game for what it is as well as whatever it is not.  No game, book or movie is ever perfect in every way, certainly not to everyone for all the same reasons.  What I love about the game, someone else may not. 

 

I think the important thing to remember here is, while I loved DA II (and many others did as well from what I have heard/read), I will agree that the single biggest fault was the re-used environments (though in the larger scale of the game...once I really got into it and focused on the story, the fast-paced combat and the characters...the things I really enjoyed far out-weighed and out number those few things I did not.)  I can say the same about ME 3 for that matter; while I understand why people did not like the original ending...I can say that I did.  Sure it didn't answer all my questions, and it may not have been what I would design the ending to be, but it was different and I think what I liked about it was that it left things a little open and actually provoked more questions than it provided answers.  Though I will admit whole heartedly that once I saw the Extended Cut (even with the slideshow), it did provide more 'closure' to certain topics and decisions which was a nice touch.  Either way I took the game (3 on its own) for what it was (also one and two, each on their own merits) but when I considered all three games as part of the BIG picture- I can honestly say that the Mass Effect games are the best games I've ever played...and Dragon Age is right up there with it.

 

I love the story and the characters in Origins, as well as the old-fashioned RPG elements....the one thing that I didn't like was the slow, turn-based combat.  It seemed like dice were being silently rolled behind the screen, and the slow pace of the turn-based style was somewhat of a detractor for me.  As well as the silent playable character whose "voice" was denoted merely by lines of text. (This is also true for Knights of the Old Republic...which also is among my favourite games and is the game that got me back into the world of Role-Playing Games...without which I probably never would have been turned onto Mass Effect or Dragon Age).   These are the things that DA II (in my mind) improved upon by providing an actually 'voiced' character and faster, more reactive combat.  Again, I understand that some people may disagree with me and that's okay, I am merely stating what I enjoyed about each game.

 

Looking forward to Dragon Age Inquisition...thus far I thoroughly like everything I have seen, very much.  Thus far I have no dislikes or complaints at all as it so far appears to be everything the Devs have said in every way.  And, for us as fans, I feel that we should be happy that (especially this time around) they truly have listened to all of our feedback and found ways to not only improve the 'short comings' of the previous games, but also (to our benefit) greatly improve even those things that we said we really liked. (I mean, how much better can it get, or can we get as fans).  I really believe from everything I've seen, heard and read that the whole development team really is making "the best version of dragon age to date. The game we and our fans always wanted, always envisioned right from the start".  I think that is what is important.  The heart and the effort of the entire team to fully and truly realize the fullest scope of the world of Dragon Age, enabling us as fans to experience what has been some four years or more of hardwork and taking us on this journey, allowing and enabling us to embark on this incredible adventure, I feel is a pleasure that we should be appreciative of.

 

Lastly to the entire team, I would like to say "thank you all for every effort you have put into making this game. For making it not only the game that you all have wanted to design from the beginning, but for making it the game that you wanted to share with us as fans from day one."  I for one, am truly confident that when the game is released (sure it will have its bugs, kinks, glitches because no game is flawless on the day it ships) and it may even have some elements that some don't find appealing.  But that's okay!  The beating heart of the game is the story, the characters and the immersive, living world that you all have worked so hard to create and bring to life so that we as fans can experience this incredible adventure.

[PhroXenGold]

Then why are we getting a limit of 8 abilities if it is not MP related?

 

Presumably because the developers - rightly or wrongly - feel that it improves the gameplay.

[EnergizerBunny211]

Presumably because the developers - rightly or wrongly - feel that it improves the gameplay.

Exactly.  everything that is included in this game (for whatever reason), the developers feel that it is an improvement over the previous titles.  Even if (some) feel that (x or y, a or is not...I really think that on a whole we as fans should take the game for everything it is, as well as whatever it is not and just be happy to have another Dragon Age (or Mass Effect) game to play.

[Jimbo_Gee79]

Couldn't agree more with energizer bunny. I think people often forget how hard games designing is these days. The bigger the name the more scrutiny you come under. Rightly or wrongly that seems to be how it is.

 

I applaud them for taking this game in a new direction. They are not trying to please everyone because they know that's impossible. Neither are they trying to include everyone as a Dragon age lover. They have a system they want to use and if people like it... great if not thats too bad. Having said that, I feel people are judging them extremely harshly on this one system which hasnt even been fully playtested yet.

 

I personally am excited to explore the new lands in Orlais and the potential danger of straying too far into an area and then having to run away screaming like a schoolgirl because i wandered too near too a dragon.

[Dutchess]

To me extensive exploration and all those limitations are not really compatible. I like exploring and poking my nose in every little nook and cranny and no doubt the result will sometimes be that my nose gets bitten by a dragon or something equally horrible. It's part of exploration to stumble onto dangerous enemies. But with the new system of limited abilities, potions and healing opportunities this risky aspect of exploration discourages venturing into the unknown. Even if I win a tough fight with my party still on their feet but only a sliver of health left, that is no longer a victory but a punishment for exploring and poking the dragon. I'd prefer the battles themselves to be the challenge, and if I make it through with all party members still alive, I have succeeded and let me be on my way to continue exploring, not limping pathetically onwards and being doomed to lose whatever struggle is ahead. 

 

I appreciate that there is always the possibility to flee from a tough encounter (at least so they say) but running away every time isn't very fun either and the party is probably wounded already by the time they make it out, so even then you're punished for exploring. It's way I don't bother with Skyrim mods that add the risk of freezing to death in a snow storm and the need to eat, etc. I want to run through the snow storm to see what is in that cave over there, not spend hours by the camp fire to warm up again.

[Inprea]

I'm looking forward to the planning especially while I'm exploring. I've never had issue with such features. It kind of reminds me of the Origin trail and well many older role playing games as well. I remember starting games like Chrono Crusade or was it trigger and looking through the local item shop. You only have a few gold so you can't buy 99 of everything. So you take a few antidotes, some soft powders, healing potions and well that might be it. Best hope none of the enemies use confuse on you and if they do you just have to tough it out.

 

As for the abilities. Well I didn't have any trouble dealing with spell books in D&D style games. You chose what spells you learned at the beginning of the day and that's what you had. Unless you had some backup scrolls. Even the spells you memorized vanished once you used them. Of course, I doubt that the dragon age spells will have the same kick as a D&D style one. A critical with one of those suckers was a very big deal.

[LexXxich]

The game is not out yet, you can't judge it!

You didn't play the game to the end, you can't judge it!

You played the game to the end, you must have likes it!

[Jimbo_Gee79]

To me extensive exploration and all those limitations are not really compatible. I like exploring and poking my nose in every little nook and cranny and no doubt the result will sometimes be that my nose gets bitten by a dragon or something equally horrible. It's part of exploration to stumble onto dangerous enemies. But with the new system of limited abilities, potions and healing opportunities this risky aspect of exploration discourages venturing into the unknown. Even if I win a tough fight with my party still on their feet but only a sliver of health left, that is no longer a victory but a punishment for exploring and poking the dragon. I'd prefer the battles themselves to be the challenge, and if I make it through with all party members still alive, I have succeeded and let me be on my way to continue exploring, not limping pathetically onwards and being doomed to lose whatever struggle is ahead. 

 

I appreciate that there is always the possibility to flee from a tough encounter (at least so they say) but running away every time isn't very fun either and the party is probably wounded already by the time they make it out, so even then you're punished for exploring. It's way I don't bother with Skyrim mods that add the risk of freezing to death in a snow storm and the need to eat, etc. I want to run through the snow storm to see what is in that cave over there, not spend hours by the camp fire to warm up again.

 

I hope you dont take offence at me saying this as it is not intended as an insult but that seems like a very bull-in-china shop way of playing. I personally cant see them putting a dragon in the first cave that we are likely to explore. but that's your play style and I accept not everyone plays like me. I'm also pretty convinced that the difficulty level will be adjusted to suit playstyles.

 

An example I'm going to use is The last of us. Brilliant game. That game forced you to make harsh choices. Resources are not infinite and cross over various weapons. Enemies will kill you if you are not careful. I played it on easy the first time and pretty much just blew my way through it.  but as I increased the difficulty level the impact of my decisions hit me. i got to a point where I couldnt move on because I had foolishly squandered all my resources and had to reload an earlier save. Was I mad? No, because it made me spend that little bit longer working out that I needed more than one molotov cocktail for that encounter.

 

Now the designers could have decided to make it easy for the gamer and put an abundance of resources everywhere. But thats not how the game works. To be perfectly honest i doubt the game would have had anywhere near the same impact if they had gone that route.

 

People are so afraid of failing at video games they tend to shy away or rage against things like this when in all honesty, there is nothing to be ashamed of by running away. or fighting one battle and limping back to the keep. it may take a little bit longer to finish the game, but in all honesty my perspective is the journey not the destination.

[RedWulfi]

This thread again.

[pdusen]

The game is not out yet, you can't judge it!

You didn't play the game to the end, you can't judge it!

You played the game to the end, you must have likes it!

Despite your portrayal, the truth is that you can't take a piece of a system, such as the 8 ability limit, and evaluate the whole system based solely on that.

We don't know enough about the entire system to make a judgement, so people are filling in the holes with what they remember from DAO or DA2, and panicking based on that. Which is sort of unfair.

[LexXxich]

It's never too early to be concerned.
It's also never too late to be reassured.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

not evaluate, speculate on.

there are known facts and premises which wouldn't be used in such devious action (as speculation is) if there was some explanation/clarification going. no one bothered to calm people down 'listen guys, you will still feel the <fuzzy thing>, cuz we did <this> and <that>. we've added <this thing> so you won't be pissed off by <stuff>' or explain in plain words 'yeah, we've decided to create more intuitive mechanics, it's more of an action rpg for that reason. if you're looking for something like our older games, this one may not be for you'. 

 

again i'm not sure if it's some kind of twisted marketing practice, they don't have PR people or they don't give a damn about a specific group of gamers.. or maybe they don't use forum/twitter/other social media crap anymore

 

thus the panic

/shrug

[Navasha]

While I could provide you with a complete explanation and all the information you require on this topic, I currently don't have access to that part of my brain since I swapped that portion of my brain for the information on how to make a great cup of coffee this early in the morning.    Maybe after I am no longer in 'morning combat' I will get a chance to re-organize my thoughts and swap back into memory the 'debate and game experience' info later today.

[andar91]

Generally, I like it. I have very little to complain about so far.