147 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

Did they apply their training to learning to equip the ring?

Training is irrelevant. The rule is that you can't use the gadget unless you pay for it out of your own character points. You might be allowed to use it for the duration of the current adventure, but that's a GM Fiat thing.

It doesn't mean the character doesn't know how to use the device, or forgot he had it. It's just how the rule works.

So having the Prima Strategy Guide sitting on the desk mapping out what to do for each and every encounter/puzzle/maze isn't metagaming?

That's a fairly sloppy way to use the word if the gameplay expects you to read the tooltips. Bio doesn't expect every player to own the guide, but they do expect every player to have access to the tooltips.

Anyway, it depends on where the information in the tooltips comes from. In Exile told me the devs have said it's in-universe information; you know they're immune to fire because you attacked them with fire, etc. BG2's manual told you what you needed to do to kill trolls; relying on that information isn't metagaming either.

[CronoDragoon]

I didn't what? Maybe you should go back and read the post that the poster I quoted posted before trying to jump to some wild conclusion about what I do or don't assume. If you do, you'll see that I in fact don't assume it doesn't, I straight out state that it does provide an in game version of the strategy guide on the tooltip. Immunity, vulnerability, level and HP, all for the low price of mousing over the mob. You're making a hell of a lot of assumptions based on what you "think", while telling people like me not to do that.

 

It isn't all that wild; your posts imply that you believe the information (the tooltip for example) will be available to players only once the fight starts, or else you wouldn't be discussing an inability to access a 9th ability. I am pointing out that gameplay demos have hinted at ways this won't be the case, not the least of which is an ability to scout particular encounters yourself before engaging.

 

Dragon fights might be a case where you can't scout an enemy before encountering, of course. However, dragon fights are an exception I'm fine with, being the endgame bosses of Inquisition. And if you want a non-metagaming way to find out their weaknesses, poke it a bit and run away, regroup, and fight again.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I will once again rail against the 8 ability limit if ever an enemy uses more than 8 abilities in a single encounter.

 

But I also expect this is highly unlikely.  Most enemies can only do a few things.

[Bhaal]

I must confess i never used more than 8 abilities in whole game since Nwn2 and i'm not sure 3rd Edition type DnD mechanics are really useful on video games. At the end due to limitations almost all abilites were reduced to buffs and debuffs and damaging and controling... Well even 3rd edition(PnP) spells after 2nd level were mostly combat abilities (though they had uses outside combat here and there).

 

So i'm not going to totally rage againt this 8 ability thing which i believe is actually just respecing your character.

 

However i believe this will be bad for mages since unique flavor of this class at almost any settings was and is it's versality. Classes should have more than 8 combat abilities, perhaps perks and such.

 

Skyrim introduced perks and that was a welcome change though people were rightfully b***hurt for losing stats, stats and skill mechanichs were hidden inside perks: charisma, barter, strenght, intelligence etc were there (as useless as they ever though).

 

Are 8 combat abilities enough? For a video game very much so. But, and it's a very big but, DA games don't have perks and skills so reducing numbers of the abilities useable at will, may take a big chunk of customization from the series. Also in most cases stat mechanic in a DA game pretty much dumping every point into the major stat of whatever class you're playing.

 

To sum up: series already lacks customization and such artifical restriction(aka. limited useable ability) will even reduce this aspect more. To summarize the summary: this change will hurt the customization. To summarize the summary of the summary: me don't like this.

[Kage]

I'm never going to accept gameplay/lore segregation as an explanation for anything.

 

Maybe there is some game that is as you wish, but oh good I would not like to play it, it would be super boring.

Games are games, and their combat has always been absurd, totally inexplicable just for the sake of entertainment.

 

There is no way 1 human can kill a dragon with their bare fists in 3 hours of punching, thought in so many games this is possible.

There is no way a super trained skinny as hell warrior hits with his axe as strong as an equally trained 2 meter giant ultra muscled guy, but in so many games muscles, height and weight are just for appearance.

There is no way I can revive my dead companion over and over, but when he dies in a cinematic nobody even tries to revive him because that possibility does not even exist.

etc

etc

etc

 

There are hundreds of examples. Dont forget you are playing a game...

If you are not going to accept it, I guess you should either stop gaming or prepare yourself for a life of disapointments.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maybe there is some game that is as you wish, but oh good I would not like to play it, it would be super boring.
Games are games, and their combat has always been absurd, totally inexplicable just for the sake of entertainment.

There is no way 1 human can kill a dragon with their bare fists in 3 hours of punching, thought in so many games this is possible.
There is no way a super trained skinny as hell warrior hits with his axe as strong as an equally trained 2 meter giant ultra muscled guy, but in so many games muscles, height and weight are just for appearance.
There is no way I can revive my dead companion over and over, but when he dies in a cinematic nobody even tries to revive him because that possibility does not even exist.
etc
etc
etc

There are hundreds of examples. Dont forget you are playing a game...
If you are not going to accept it, I guess you should either stop gaming or prepare yourself for a life of disapointments.

Why do people equate lore coherence with realism?

This is happening a lot, recently.

[archav3n]

People like to defend on the limited abilities which are 8 and coincidentally there are 8 buttons on the controller. No matter how much you want to debate about planning and strategy, it still don't influence me. I still believe that gameplay and design was tailored for console.

[robertthebard]

It isn't all that wild; your posts imply that you believe the information (the tooltip for example) will be available to players only once the fight starts, or else you wouldn't be discussing an inability to access a 9th ability. I am pointing out that gameplay demos have hinted at ways this won't be the case, not the least of which is an ability to scout particular encounters yourself before engaging.
 
Dragon fights might be a case where you can't scout an enemy before encountering, of course. However, dragon fights are an exception I'm fine with, being the endgame bosses of Inquisition. And if you want a non-metagaming way to find out their weaknesses, poke it a bit and run away, regroup, and fight again.

Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication. Go back and read the posts again, then come back to this post and see how silly it looks to anyone that's been reading what I've said. It's really hard to take anything you say seriously, especially in a context of "Someone else said xxxx", when you can't even read what I said and reply to it accurately.

[CronoDragoon]

Reading comprehension is essential in a medium that requires reading for communication. Go back and read the posts again, then come back to this post and see how silly it looks to anyone that's been reading what I've said. It's really hard to take anything you say seriously, especially in a context of "Someone else said xxxx", when you can't even read what I said and reply to it accurately.

 

I'm not sure why you've become so aggressive when the worst I've done is misread you. It's not like I called you out in a condescending manner when you've been blatantly wrong about something in these threads. Because sometimes people just miss something.

 

Having said that, you're right. In this thread you haven't been talking about the issue of pre-planning with the tooltip; I conflated a past debate and then became confused when you were referring to the tooltip as "metagaming," which is my fault.

 

But on that topic, I'm not sure why the tooltip would be an in-game Prima guide. Isn't the tooltip a visual presentation of your knowledge of the enemies? Using a guide would be utilizing extra-game knowledge whereas the tooltip is in-game knowledge. I take it that defeating enemies to unlock more tooltip knowledge is supposed to be a representation of your experience.

[SofaJockey]

But on that topic, I'm not sure why the tooltip would be an in-game Prima guide. Isn't the tooltip a visual presentation of your knowledge of the enemies? Using a guide would be utilizing extra-game knowledge whereas the tooltip is in-game knowledge. I take it that defeating enemies to unlock more tooltip knowledge is supposed to be a representation of your experience.

 

My assumption may be unwarranted, but I had assumed that the foe tactical information would only be gained from the experience of killing such a foe by use of a tactic they were vulnerable to.

Once such a vulnerability or invincibility has been learnt for a foe type, it would show on similar foes.

 

Or so I had thought...

[robertthebard]

I'm not sure why you've become so aggressive when the worst I've done is misread you. It's not like I called you out in a condescending manner when you've been blatantly wrong about something in these threads. Because sometimes people just miss something.
 
Having said that, you're right. In this thread you haven't been talking about the issue of pre-planning with the tooltip; I conflated a past debate and then became confused when you were referring to the tooltip as "metagaming," which is my fault.
 
But on that topic, I'm not sure why the tooltip would be an in-game Prima guide. Isn't the tooltip a visual presentation of your knowledge of the enemies? Using a guide would be utilizing extra-game knowledge whereas the tooltip is in-game knowledge. I take it that defeating enemies to unlock more tooltip knowledge is supposed to be a representation of your experience.

I'm not sure how it's implemented. Again, I'm going on what is shown, which is the equivalent of having the guide on the desk.

As to the opener, it's really hard to try and keep the conversation rolling in a specific direction when someone directly quotes you and then goes off on a tangent about something that is exactly opposite of what was said, in the post they quoted, or worse, since there are no quote trees here, takes something else from another dialog and does the same thing, completely misrepresenting what was said. It leaves one feeling like they are being deliberately misrepresented in order for the poster to make a point. After multiple instances, it starts to look like either the person can't understand what's presented, or is doing it deliberately because they really don't have anything to refute what was said, but still feels the need to refute, so they "invent" a reason.

For all of that, we now know more about who we can and cannot romance than we do about this system, which is really skewed in my estimation. It's not like we won't be confronted with this the entirety of the game, as opposed to romances where, in some cases they won't apply at all to a particular playthrough, since the PC may not be eligible for a particular romance. All I can say to that is "Yay?".

[robertthebard]

My assumption may be unwarranted, but I had assumed that the foe tactical information would only be gained from the experience of killing such a foe by use of a tactic they were vulnerable to.
Once such a vulnerability or invincibility has been learnt for a foe type, it would show on similar foes.
 
Or so I had thought...

I haven't seen anything either way on this. Nothing that confirms it, and nothing that refutes it either. It's in the realm of "I don't know, but they have shown the tips in video, so it's in the game". Implementation is key, but it's also "Top Secret".

[EnduinRaylene]

My assumption may be unwarranted, but I had assumed that the foe tactical information would only be gained from the experience of killing such a foe by use of a tactic they were vulnerable to.

Once such a vulnerability or invincibility has been learnt for a foe type, it would show on similar foes.

 

Or so I had thought...

I think it should be acquired in a couple of ways. The first two seem to be the case right now, to some degree or another.

 

First: Actual first hand experience through fighting said enemy multiple times should give you info, especially using an ability that exposes a particular strength or weakness. 

 

Second: By investing in, and upgrading, you Inquisition Scouts so they will be able to provide more detailed reports on areas and enemies within in them. 

 

Third: Exploration and uncovering of information on your own about enemy factions and troops. Codex type entries you find within the world that could give insight into enemies that can also be used in combat.

 

But for those people who are playing on Easy, I would be fine with the tooltips simply being available by default. And or maybe being available to all via a toggle option in the gameplay settings. Some people like the challenge of hard or nightmare, but don't always care to do all that work involved, but default setting for Normal through Nightmare should require at least one of the three I outlined above to acquire such information.

[LexXxich]

Sylvuis mentioning his "coward mage" reminded me that all the spells that were shown so far, that had CC, had that CC as secondary effect to primary damage effect. Like, Fire spells have Fear, Frost has Freeze, Lightning has Stun. And it doesn't look like there are ways of producing these CC effects outside those damaging elemental spells.
Additionally, there doesn't seem to be any buff spells outside of Barrier, or debuff/curse spells in base trees.

[frankf43]

Then why are we getting a limit of 8 abilities if it is not MP related?

 

 

It's games pad related. They are going to allow us to use a games pad with the PC version of the game. Now with games pads you normally use the four buttons for abilities, with another four available by pressing the left trigger.  I think that is why there is an 8 ability ceiling on encounters. 

 

Further more it hearkens back to the DnD style game-play like in BG where you could know hundreds of spells but only learn a certain number at any given time. I actually like the ideas of researching up on a encounter, finding out what types of spells and weapons a certain mob might be susceptible too and gearing up accordingly.  

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

It's games pad related. They are going to allow us to use a games pad with the PC version of the game. Now with games pads you normally use the four buttons for abilities, with another four available by pressing the left trigger.  I think that is why there is an 8 ability ceiling on encounters. 

 

Further more it hearkens back to the DnD style game-play like in BG where you could know hundreds of spells but only learn a certain number at any given time. I actually like the ideas of researching up on a encounter, finding out what types of spells and weapons a certain mob might be susceptible too and gearing up accordingly.  

 

I have a gamepad for my PC (which I never use). It has about 30 mappable keys. It's obviously not the one you are thinking of.

[EnduinRaylene]

Sylvuis mentioning his "coward mage" reminded me that all the spells that were shown so far, that had CC, had that CC as secondary effect to primary damage effect. Like, Fire spells have Fear, Frost has Freeze, Lightning has Stun. And it doesn't look like there are ways of producing these CC effects outside those damaging elemental spells.
Additionally, there doesn't seem to be any buff spells outside of Barrier, or debuff/curse spells in base trees.

Probably, though we've only really gotten a good look at two of the mage trees, Fire and Ice, so there could still be one or two other non-damage spells besides Dispel and Barrier in the other two base trees and even in the Necromancy and Rift Mage trees, plus we do know there are the focus spells like Haste, though they operate differently. While I always enjoyed the Entropy school and casting Horror and Affliction Hex and what have you, I'm OK with them merging the two if it means more options for CCCs. I enjoy that kind of one, two punch style combat where we have to use, and are greatly rewarded for using, our party members in concert with one another in setting up and knocking down enemies. 

 

It's games pad related. They are going to allow us to use a games pad with the PC version of the game. Now with games pads you normally use the four buttons for abilities, with another four available by pressing the left trigger.  I think that is why there is an 8 ability ceiling on encounters. 

Yeah that's not why they did it, we've been over this a lot now. Consoles and gamepads in DAO and DA2 had access to all the spells and abilities in the game through the radial menu, they were never limited by the number of buttons on the controller, and the radial wheel still exists in DAI. So there's no reason, had they wanted to, that they couldn't have included all the abilities through there yet again, but they didn't, so obviously they decided upon the ability limit for some other reason(s) outside of controller limitations.

[Rawgrim]

I will once again rail against the 8 ability limit if ever an enemy uses more than 8 abilities in a single encounter.

 

But I also expect this is highly unlikely.  Most enemies can only do a few things.

 

Or if one of my companions uses some ability in a cutscene, that is not part of the 8 on the quickslots.

[Rawgrim]

It's games pad related. They are going to allow us to use a games pad with the PC version of the game. Now with games pads you normally use the four buttons for abilities, with another four available by pressing the left trigger.  I think that is why there is an 8 ability ceiling on encounters. 

 

Further more it hearkens back to the DnD style game-play like in BG where you could know hundreds of spells but only learn a certain number at any given time. I actually like the ideas of researching up on a encounter, finding out what types of spells and weapons a certain mob might be susceptible too and gearing up accordingly.  

 

That system doesn't work with mana and spellpoints, since mages in DA doesn't memorize spells via spellbooks.

[Sylvius the Mad]

It's games pad related. They are going to allow us to use a games pad with the PC version of the game. Now with games pads you normally use the four buttons for abilities, with another four available by pressing the left trigger. I think that is why there is an 8 ability ceiling on encounters.

Further more it hearkens back to the DnD style game-play like in BG where you could know hundreds of spells but only learn a certain number at any given time. I actually like the ideas of researching up on a encounter, finding out what types of spells and weapons a certain mob might be susceptible too and gearing up accordingly.

Except the earliee games allowed console users - with gamepads - to access all of their abilities.

It's not gamepad related. BioWare actually thinks this is a good design.

[durasteel]

 

The game is not out yet, you can't judge it!

You didn't play the game to the end, you can't judge it!

You played the game to the end, you must have likes it!

 

 

The second one is certainly true of ME3. The third one is a fair representation of the opposite of the truth in the context of Mass Effect 3. 

[durasteel]

Or if one of my companions uses some ability in a cutscene, that is not part of the 8 on the quickslots.

 

I've been conditioned to expect companions in cutscenes to use weapons and abilities they're not even trained or proficient in.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I've been conditioned to expect companions in cutscenes to use weapons and abilities they're not even trained or proficient in.

I still hate it.

In DAO, in the Joining scene, Ser Jory pulls out a one-handed sword to defend himself. But he's given to you only with 2-H talents. Even if we allow that he would have a weapon even if you've stripped him before the scene so you can sell his gear, it shouldn't be a one-hander.