222 réponses à ce sujet

[Farangbaa]

What does that have to do with TIM being indoctrinated? 

 

Nothing, but it explains his want to keep the alliance out.

 

Not at all. The base can only be handed to Cerberus. I honestly think there is a case that TIM is too dumb to use the base. In an idiot's hand any value it has is rendered moot. For example, what if TIM's short-sidedness gets all of Cerberus Indoctrinated (like what happened in ME3?)? Then the base is ultimately a detriment to the war effort. What if Cerberus decides to use their newly minted human Reaper to attack human colonies to test the effect of newly minted human Reapers attacking human colonies?

 

I disagree. Cerberus being indoctrinated is meta gaming, you don't know that when you make the decision.

And while we're metagaming: they get the baby Reaper anyway. It doesn't matter what you do.

 

But it doesn't matter in my opinion, such knowledge should not go to waste, whoever gets it. I'd give the base to Kim Jung-Un, even Hitler.

 

btw, Mubarak isn't dead. And I'm just using the Pyramids as an example of something where a lot of people died but a lot can be learned from.

[Vazgen]

Question: what knowledge does the base contain?

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Is there any evidence in the game since when exactly TIM was indoctrinated?

 

In many ways he made this impression already in ME 2, when he argued about the advantage of an undestroyed Collector Base.

 

Mass Effect lore is a zany free-for-all.

 

After and during ME3 Mac Walters went and started writing and retconning lore to fit, no matter how crazy. Lore is being rewritten as we write this.

 

Example: Miranda Lawson knew about the clone. "What clone?" But it doesn't matter because Shepard is dead.

[Farangbaa]

Question: what knowledge does the base contain?

 

The baby Reaper and Collector tech, which is said to be more advanced than other tech in this cycle. The base has no defense that I'm aware of, no weapons whatsoever. That thing shooting at you is a Collector ship. So I don't even really see the danger of giving it to Cerberus.

[SporkFu]

Nothing, but it explains his want to keep the alliance out.

Okay, gotcha... so it's like:

 

TIM: Well gee, shep, I'd really like to live up to my assertions that saving humans is why we're doing all this, but there's no point in telling the Alliance that the collectors are attacking right this minute and making use of that big ass laser they've already set up. They won't return my calls cause I'm a terrorist, don't ya know.

[Excella Gionne]

I still don't understand if krogans give live births or not... this is what happens when you put "mass" and "effect" together.

[Iakus]

By destroying the base you keep it out of Cerberus's idiotic and short sided hands. I mean knowing Cerberus the scientists working on it would probably become a rogue cell or create something that kills all their guys, ultimately derailing the war effort either way.

 

An an aside the base is kept in all my playthroughs, but that's because I think TIM was never intended to be the lunatic he comes off as in ME2.

ME2: *Blows up Collector Base to keep Cerberus from getting Reaper technology*

ME3: *Cerberus gets Reaper technology from the Collector Base anyway*

 

Gotta stay on the story rails, man!

[Farangbaa]

Okay, gotcha... so it's like:

 

TIM: Well gee, shep, I'd really like to live up to my assertions that saving humans is why we're doing all this, but there's no point in telling the Alliance that the collectors are attacking right this minute and making use of that big ass laser they've already set up. They won't return my calls cause I'm a terrorist, don't ya know.

 

It's a stretch, but a lot in ME is.

[Vazgen]

The baby Reaper and Collector tech, which is said to be more advanced than other tech in this cycle. The base has no defense that I'm aware of, no weapons whatsoever. That thing shooting at you is a Collector ship. So I don't even really see the danger of giving it to Cerberus.

The way I see it, it has the tech to create a Reaper by harvesting humans. That technology requires substance, you either put humans in the tubes or some other creature for other form of Reaper. So, to use it, they'll need to put humans/other creatures there. 

Collector weapons and armor are already being created by Cerberus. 

I just don't see the benefit they can get from the base. 

 

Using metagaming, they salvage the brain from the base which is essentially a supercomputer. And the engineers working on a Crucible can make it themselves

[ImaginaryMatter]

I disagree. Cerberus being indoctrinated is meta gaming, you don't know that when you make the decision.

 

No, I'm saying the base is full of Reaper tech which could result in Cerberus becoming Indoctrinated, like those aboard the derelict Reaper. I brought up TIM becoming Indoctrinated in ME3 from the technology as an example because it was just confirming what I consider to be a completely justifiable suspicion.

 

I don't care how many people died at the base. The decision though isn't just to keep the base, it's handing the base exclusively over to someone who is possibly deranged. Despite how valuable the information is, handing such a big gun to someone who is likely to shoot themselves in the foot and take everyone else in the room with them is what I consider to be a good reason not to hand them such information. I'm not denying that Cerberus can't do good with the base; however, the possibility that they won't is too real. If Shepard could keep the base for himself and hand it over to anyone he trusts I would agree with you destroying the base is completely idiotic. But that isn't the case here.

 

As for Mubarak... well ****. Any way, I would still leave him the pyramids because he can't do anything with them. However, if they contained some sort of ancient Egyptian evil that could escape and threaten the world I might reconsider.

[ImaginaryMatter]

The way I see it, it has the tech to create a Reaper by harvesting humans. That technology requires substance, you either put humans in the tubes or some other creature for other form of Reaper. So, to use it, they'll need to put humans/other creatures there. 

Collector weapons and armor are already being created by Cerberus. 

I just don't see the benefit they can get from the base. 

 

The base is used to build Reapers. Presumably it has their specifications like shield strength, weapon capabilities, engine speed, etc. All information that would be useful in a fight against the Reapers. It's also possible that there could be schematics to build a Reaper shell with all the bells and whistles. You can possibly find what the Reapers motives are and what their plan is. Maybe, there's more of those Collector ships to commandeer. Etc. That's why I keep the base.

[SporkFu]

It's a stretch, but a lot in ME is.

It isn't though.

 

TIM lured the collectors there -- on the premise that it was the only way to know where they were going to attack ahead of time. But did he do it solely to stop them from taking people? I don't think so; everything we learn between then and the end of the game suggests to me that all TIM was ultimately interested in was the tech he could get the collector base.

 

That's why he said "I don't want [the Alliance] getting in our way." and to me that was the first hint that TIM had other motives.  

[Vazgen]

The base is used to build Reapers. Presumably it has their specifications like shield strength, weapon capabilities, engine speed, etc. All information that would be useful in a fight against the Reapers. It's also possible that there could be schematics to build a Reaper shell with all the bells and whistles. You can possibly find what the Reapers motives are and what their plan is. Maybe, there's more of those Collector ships to commandeer. Etc. That's why I keep the base.

Ah, I see now. Never considered it, thanks!

[Farangbaa]

No, I'm saying the base is full of Reaper tech which could result in Cerberus becoming Indoctrinated, like those aboard the derelict Reaper. I brought up TIM becoming Indoctrinated in ME3 from the technology as an example because it was just confirming what I consider to be a completely justifiable suspicion.
 
I don't care how many people died at the base. The decision though isn't just to keep the base, it's handing the base exclusively over to someone who is possibly deranged. Despite how valuable the information is, handing such a big gun to someone who is likely to shoot themselves in the foot and take everyone else in the room with them is what I consider to be a good reason not to hand them such information. I'm not denying that Cerberus can't do good with the base; however, the possibility that they won't is too real. If Shepard could keep the base for himself and hand it over to anyone he trusts I would agree with you destroying the base is completely idiotic. But that isn't the case here.
 
As for Mubarak... well ****. Any way, I would still leave him the pyramids because he can't do anything with them. However, if they contained some sort of ancient Egyptian evil that could escape and threaten the world I might reconsider.

That's fine really, I like this explanation. I'd still never destroy the base. (especially not knowing the line Shepard will utter when you choose to do so, but that's besides the point )

I think TIM's a fool, but I agree with him on a certain level. Like on how I think it's utterly foolish to destroy the Reapers when you have the option to control them.

[Darks1d3]

No, I'm saying the base is full of Reaper tech which could result in Cerberus becoming Indoctrinated, like those aboard the derelict Reaper. I brought up TIM becoming Indoctrinated in ME3 from the technology as an example because it was just confirming what I consider to be a completely justifiable suspicion.

I don't care how many people died at the base. The decision though isn't just to keep the base, it's handing the base exclusively over to someone who is possibly deranged. Despite how valuable the information is, handing such a big gun to someone who is likely to shoot themselves in the foot and take everyone else in the room with them is what I consider to be a good reason not to hand them such information. I'm not denying that Cerberus can't do good with the base; however, the possibility that they won't is too real. If Shepard could keep the base for himself and hand it over to anyone he trusts I would agree with you destroying the base is completely idiotic. But that isn't the case here.

As for Mubarak... well ****. Any way, I would still leave him the pyramids because he can't do anything with them. However, if they contained some sort of ancient Egyptian evil that could escape and threaten the world I might reconsider.

I'd like this post if I could, but my phone is being stupid. This matches my sentiments exactly.

[Basher of Glory]

There is one assignment of Cerberus in ME 2: Rescue a Cerberus agent. When Shep arrives, the agent is dead and Shep can decide, how to handle the data.

1) give it to Cerberus  2) give it to the Alliance   3) keep it

 

Now, if there had been an opportunity to give the Collector's base to Hacket aka Alliance, I would have done so.

 

But how could I ever consider to give it to TIM? I didn't need any sort of metagaming to decide against this way.

Alone the facts of ME 1 (unethical experiments etc.) and what we have seen in ME 2 (like luring the Collectors to a human colony, hazarding the consequences of a total loss of the population) are sufficient for me to give TIM nothing.

 

I realize that there might have been valuable techs, but the risk to give these techs into the hands of a fanatic lunatic is outweighs everything, IMO.

 

BTW, Shep could take the base with a handful of people. Who says, that the Reapers won't try to get the base back?

[KaiserShep]

But how could I ever consider to give it to TIM? I didn't need any sort of metagaming to decide against this way.

Alone the facts of ME 1 (unethical experiments etc.) and what we have seen in ME 2 (like luring the Collectors to a human colony, hazarding the consequences of a total loss of the population) are sufficient for me to give TIM nothing.

 

I have to say, the Horizon issue is kind of tough, because before that, determining any kind of pattern to the Collectors' movements or motives was nigh impossible, and as far as anyone could tell, there were no reasonable alternatives in place to figure out exactly what it is that they want and how to get closer to them. While I really don't like the idea of luring the enemy to a civilian population, risking their annihilation, the sad reality is that they were doing this elsewhere anyway, only predicting it would be impossible.

[Basher of Glory]

I agree.

 

But during the debriefing, TIM said something like "...I told you, I won't stand idly by..." and made it clear, that he will not be bothered by pangs of remorse, should there be a similar decision necessary.

 

This was beyond the comprehension of Shepard, but she accepted for the moment, demanding "...no more colonies..." and then moving on.

 

On the other hand she has seen, that TIM would use his power against everyone, if it serves his goals. How could she even consider to hand over the Collector's base (assumed, she is more towards paragon)?

 

I adhere to my evaluation: There is no meta gaming necessary to come to the decision "destroy the base".

[Farangbaa]

On the other hand she has seen, that TIM would use his power against everyone, if it serves his goals. 

 

Not a reason in my opinion to not give him the base, I'd do so as well.

[SporkFu]

My shep will never save the base. It's an abomination... and not just because of what's being done to humans -- it could be any species, and I'd feel the same way -- well, maybe not the drell  j/k Thane fans -- but also because of what was done to the protheans. That's an abomination too... and also because of the reaper connection. I'm not falling for that, "you think because I'm using the enemies [tech] that they're no longer my enemy" BS either. TIM was indoctrinated. That's how it works, by making you think you're doing the right thing.

 

And my shep wouldn't save the base just to p*ss TIM off. 

[Farangbaa]

Being indoctrinated doesn't mean your ideas are wrong by definition. Being a bad person doesn't mean your ideas are wrong by definition.

 

Lets bring up Hitler once more. Terrible guy, I think we can all agree on that. But he also was, as far as I know, the first human being in existence (or the first human in a position of power) that considered banning smoking and took great interest in animal welfare.

 

And what's happened at the base does nothing to detract from it's value. I would've kept Sanctuary too, no matter what happened there. Would I condone or sanction what happened there? No. Would I make use of the results they got there? HELL YES.

[Vazgen]

Being indoctrinated doesn't mean your ideas are wrong by definition. Being a bad person doesn't mean your ideas are wrong by definition.

 

Lets bring up Hitler once more. Terrible guy, I think we can all agree on that. But he also was, as far as I know, the first human being in existence (or the first human in a position of power) that considered banning smoking and took great interest in animal welfare.

 

And what's happened at the base does nothing to detract from it's value. I would've kept Sanctuary too, no matter what happened there. Would I condone or sanction what happened there? No. Would I make use of the results they got there? HELL YES.

Destroying the base is not as much a matter of the means the technology there was obtained (despite Shepard's asinine claims ) but more of a person the base goes to. By preserving the base for the Illusive Man you essentially lock the knowledge from there to Cerberus. Can they use it without messing things up? I'm not certain, especially after seeing what happened to their other team that studied a Reaper (people who knew the risks and took every precaution). 

[Farangbaa]

As I said before, I would've given the base to Kim Jong-Un. That TIM gets it is not a reason to destroy it in my book.

 

Would I prefered to have given it to the Council? Yes. Would I prefered to have given it to the Alliance? Maybe, don't think highly of it's representatives. Anderson is a tool, Udina might be even worse than TIM in a way.

[SporkFu]

Udina's got no real power. He's a figurehead. Look at how easily the rest of the council blocked him in ME3... even the newbies if you let the old council die. They didn't even let him be the one to tell shep he's still a spectre.  

[Basher of Glory]

We all have our opinions about this.

 

The question was:

 

Do I need meta gaming knowledge (= about how TIM evolves in ME 3) to refuse TIM's wish?

In other words: Is everyone who destroyed the base WITHOUT knowing the story of ME 3 at least a simple hearted do-gooder?

 

Or are there enough hints during ME 1 and 2 to justify a decision against TIM?