95 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

In general, the games don't display a great deal of familiarity with...optimally structured military operations.

I don't consider the instances of this to be "plot holes", necessarily. They're flaws, but they don't make the games' narrative internally inconsistent.

If we considered military and organizational ineptness a plot hole, most Bioware games (and most games in general) would fall into them.

 

In ME, you can't even get past the fundamental backstory structure of the setting (of the Reaper cycle) without confronting how it's a really, really stupid way to go about any deliberate and systemic process. Whether preventing AI's or Dark Energy or Reproduction any other goal with an objective, measurable purpose, the Reaper cycle of crushing civilizations after they grow (rather than simply pre-empting them) is really, really stupid. About the only motivation in which killing everyone on a cycle like they do makes internal sense is if they do it for fun.

 

Other ME oddities include the Alliance backstory for rising as a galactic power, the attempt to claim biotics respect energy conservation by requiring biotics to eat more calories, the entire Collector abduction plot, the exaggerated concern about the Terminus, the implied relevance of Omega as both a trade hub and ongoing commercial mining operation, the lack of attention to Krogan infrastructure (and the vulnerability of infrastructure) when discussing the Krogan as a potential threat, the presentation of SPECTRES as elite para-military operatives when their numbers and legal immunity make little sense for that roll, the entire conduct of the 'good' Geth and their (lack of) contributions to peaceful contact and reconciliation, the entire Subject Zero scenario as an operation/project methodology, and so on.

[themikefest]

Then Bioware had to create another digression, when they wanted the player to focus on Shepard.

Actually it could easily be explained. We know Steve dies if we don't talk with him, but when his shuttle crashes, why not have him show up at the forward operating base? He explains that he crashed near the FOB, and fortunately didn't run into any reaper ground forces on his way to the FOB. He has a couple of minor cuts and bruises  and Shepard can have a goodbye with him without him being a holo-bye.

[von uber]

Regards Tolkein, there's a good reason why idle Earth on the whole holds together thematically and is internally consistent. The man knew what he was doing, and spent years revising and perfecting it (and never finished).

[Han Shot First]

 

And then there's the fact that ME3 makes quarians look like idiots and geth look like innocent victims. Why? Why do that all of a sudden? It makes no sense. Of course, you have to remember, everything you see in the geth consensus is propaganda, biased for the geth's point of view. But not every player is going to know that.

 

That wasn't sudden. It was built up from Mass Effect 1.

 

You can have Shepard play devil's advocate in the first game, and point out to Tali the problems with the Quarian perspective while she is describing the Morning War.  You can have Shepard point out that the Quarians started firing on the Geth for asking if they had souls. It was clear from the first game that the Quarians were the aggressor in the Morning War.

 

Then Mass Effect 2 introduced Legion, and had it explained that the Geth that followed Saren were a minority of 'heretics' who are opposed by Legion and the true Geth.

 

Long before ME3 released it had already been established that the Geth weren't villains.

[Jorji Costava]

For instance, if Harbinger doens't blow Normandy up when Normandy is hovering right in front of it, it just makes me automatically give the screen the middle finger and thereafter laugh at trageties  such as Anderson dying because that plothole just made the game a comedy and I cannot get immersed in the experience as it reminded me how cheap a fiction show it really is. The same goes with other factors such as characters, pacing tones, dialogues.

 

The Normandy evacuation scene is actually a great example of what I'm talking about. Even if you had a completely plausible in-universe explanation of how it could happen, the scene doesn't work at all. The tone of the beam run is one of total desperation; it's exactly the wrong time to introduce a sentimental 'last goodbye' sequence, particularly when we already had last goodbyes with our squadmates not an hour ago. The scene creates a tonal inconsistency for the sake of hitting character beats we've already hit. If you didn't have those tonal and story issues, I'm not so sure that people would have complained about the plot inconsistency so much. It would still be annoying, but probably more of a minor annoyance.

 

In ME, you can't even get past the fundamental backstory structure of the setting (of the Reaper cycle) without confronting how it's a really, really stupid way to go about any deliberate and systemic process. Whether preventing AI's or Dark Energy or Reproduction any other goal with an objective, measurable purpose, the Reaper cycle of crushing civilizations after they grow (rather than simply pre-empting them) is really, really stupid. About the only motivation in which killing everyone on a cycle like they do makes internal sense is if they do it for fun.

 

This is something I've always felt to be the case as well. It seems clear that the considerations driving how the idea of the harvest was constructed were entirely meta in character. The Reapers want to wipe out all life because that gives even the most murderously sociopathic of Shepards a reason to oppose them. They wait 50,000 years because if they didn't, the setting wouldn't be possible. The 50,000 year period also provides a context with which to introduce the familiar trope of the ancient advanced civilization that was wiped out mysteriously long ago (i.e. the Protheans). But I doubt that the cycle was designed with any particular view in mind as to what the Reaper goals would be, and how they would accomplish those goals.

 

That wasn't sudden. It was built up from Mass Effect 1.

 

You can have Shepard play devil's advocate in the first game, and point out to Tali the problems with the Quarian perspective while she is describing the Morning War.  You can have Shepard point out that the Quarians started firing on the Geth for asking if they had souls. It was clear from the first game that the Quarians were the aggressor in the Morning War.

 

Then Mass Effect 2 introduced Legion, and had it explained that the Geth that followed Saren were a minority of 'heretics' who are opposed by Legion and the true Geth.

 

Long before ME3 released it had already been established that the Geth weren't villains.

 

I don't think we can completely say it was foreshadowed in ME1; we didn't know about the Heretic/'true Geth' divide, so for all we knew, all Geth were collaborating with the Reapers. This would make them villains: villains who'd been wronged by people who no longer exist, but villains nonetheless. It probably didn't help that Legion was introduced so late in ME2 (a major mistake IMO). Because of this late introduction, the transition from the ME1 characterization of the Geth to the ME2 characterization wasn't handled as smoothly as it could have been. As it is, Legion has to introduce an enormous amount of exposition in a limited amount of time; there's no way he can clear up all the little inconsistencies (i.e. if the Geth oppose the Reapers, what were they doing in ME1?, etc.) in that short span.

 

Don't get me wrong; Legion and the Geth are some of my favorite things about the whole series, but I do wish that some elements of this arc had been handled with more finesse.

[Iakus]

They can only make one big boy a cycle. Now maybe they get lucky, shut off the relays, and can manage to not lose any Sovereigns once in a while, but more often than not, the Reapers must be careful. 

Only 77, the largest concentration of Reapers, by a considerable margin, are at Earth. Only twelve were available to hit Arcturus station. 

From all the in-game evidence, it's a couple hundred big guys and a couple hundred more small guys. 

Destroyers are also very susceptible to cruisers. They also must have a high death rate. 

They shut down the relays, decapitate the government, and harvest each civilization one at a time.  It's a slow, but safe process.  Aimed at not losing any Reapers.  And they've been doing this for a billion years.   Time enough to build up an armada of thousands.

 

If they lose Sovereigns more than "one every once in a while"  then the Catalyst isn't doing its freaking job even by its own insane troll logic.

[angol fear]

Regards Tolkein, there's a good reason why idle Earth on the whole holds together thematically and is internally consistent. The man knew what he was doing, and spent years revising and perfecting it (and never finished).

You can add very basic writing which makes it consistent. Science-fiction isn't supposed to work like fantasy, like tales.

[Farangbaa]

You can add very basic writing which makes it consistent. Science-fiction isn't supposed to work like fantasy, like tales.

 

The point von uber was trying to make, I think, is that Tolkien kept going back to his work to edit out discovered flaws and inconsistencies making it almost flawless in the end.

[ZipZap2000]

This Tolkien poet guy reminds me of Okeer.

[Iakus]

You can add very basic writing which makes it consistent. Science-fiction isn't supposed to work like fantasy, like tales.

World-building is world-building.  It all has to make sense within the rules that world is constrained by.

[von uber]

The point von uber was trying to make, I think, is that Tolkien kept going back to his work to edit out discovered flaws and inconsistencies making it almost flawless in the end.

 

There's a whole series that follows the creation of the book (much like a dveevlopment process) where you can see the ideas develop and the assessment against the existing lore he had put up. It's a very good example of universe building, there is not much that isn't explained or handwaved.

 

 

You can add very basic writing which makes it consistent. Science-fiction isn't supposed to work like fantasy, like tales.

 

Science fiction is a tale though, one which just works within it's own rule set with a basis in real world science (although it gets stretched a lot it seems). It's exactly the same as LotR, that works within it's own defined rule set and version of science.

Take for example the palantir; there's a whole load of in-world and additional material that explains how they work (a codex if you will) which is then reflected by how they work in the story and in the appearances within the story they don't contradict the established lore.

Internal consistency, no replacement by rule of cool.

[Reorte]

World-building is world-building.  It all has to make sense within the rules that world is constrained by.

Amen to that. Any time anyone tries the "but it's fiction" line to dismiss nonsense, as if what you said wasn't important, I want to punch them. Some people seem to think that as soon as you accept a world with different constraints to reality then you've got no constraints, which is rather idiotic (and being easily satisfied with hack writing).

[Reorte]

In ME, you can't even get past the fundamental backstory structure of the setting (of the Reaper cycle) without confronting how it's a really, really stupid way to go about any deliberate and systemic process. Whether preventing AI's or Dark Energy or Reproduction any other goal with an objective, measurable purpose, the Reaper cycle of crushing civilizations after they grow (rather than simply pre-empting them) is really, really stupid. About the only motivation in which killing everyone on a cycle like they do makes internal sense is if they do it for fun.

I was assuming that the Reapers somehow made use of every cycle's technological devleopments - maybe for Borg-like reasons, maybe because somehow all the work they would do was useful enough for the Reapers to be worth the extra effort in subdueing them. As it turned out this wasn't the case. It's a good example why you should thing things through when writing a story.

[Vazgen]

I was assuming that the Reapers somehow made use of every cycle's technological devleopments - maybe for Borg-like reasons, maybe because somehow all the work they would do was useful enough for the Reapers to be worth the extra effort in subdueing them. As it turned out this wasn't the case. It's a good example why you should thing things through when writing a story.

 

There is this theory on gamefront.com that tries to explain a lot of things about the Catalyst, Reapers and Leviathans. I found it quite interesting. I'll link the first part here: Part 1

[RiptideX1090]

Seven. Seven plotholes.

 

I don't know why, that just seems like the right number. Obviously I can't go out of my way to remember, otherwise they won't be forgotten anymore and the number would be zero, and I feel like that would somehow be a disappointing number.

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

That wasn't sudden. It was built up from Mass Effect 1.

 

You can have Shepard play devil's advocate in the first game, and point out to Tali the problems with the Quarian perspective while she is describing the Morning War.  You can have Shepard point out that the Quarians started firing on the Geth for asking if they had souls. It was clear from the first game that the Quarians were the aggressor in the Morning War.

 

Then Mass Effect 2 introduced Legion, and had it explained that the Geth that followed Saren were a minority of 'heretics' who are opposed by Legion and the true Geth.

 

Long before ME3 released it had already been established that the Geth weren't villains.

I'm more concerned about the villifying of the quarians.  In ME3, it was as subtle as an anvil to the head.  It was overcompensating.  Although I made peace, I'm sure this made a lot of people kill off the quarians.

[Quarian Master Race]

I'm more concerned about the villifying of the quarians.  In ME3, it was as subtle as an anvil to the head.  It was overcompensating.  Although I made peace, I'm sure this made a lot of people kill off the quarians.

Hack writing. Apparently they though frightened organics vs ruthless machines with alien reasoning was less interesting than racist caricatures vs robo pinnochios. It wasn't just the quarians, Legion went from a ruthless, calculating logical machine who wanted his people to build their own future into a touchy feely mess who wanted organics to be nice to him and accept him as one of their own.

See the genophage arc as well, where the Krogan were turned into misunderstood victims and the Dalatrass into a racist caricature while Mordin had to develop multiple personality disorder just like Legion to fit the story.

[von uber]

Genophage works much better with Wreav.

[Fixers0]

Genophage works much better with Wreav.

 

I generally prefer to sabotage the Cure with wrex though, feels like there's some actual pay off in that case.

[Quarian Master Race]

Genophage works much better with Wreav.

I agree. I would rather both sides be unsympathetic than one being artificially portrayed as so no matter what you do. I would make the same argument for the Rannoch arc that it works better without Legion for the same reason plot-wise, in that now it isn't being shoved down my throat that one side or the other is innocent or evil. They both have their own interests and legitimate grievances and neither is portrayed as morally right or wrong.

However, both arcs would be better if each side had reasonable and balanced treatments of their point of view like in previous games.

[Iakus]

I was assuming that the Reapers somehow made use of every cycle's technological devleopments - maybe for Borg-like reasons, maybe because somehow all the work they would do was useful enough for the Reapers to be worth the extra effort in subdueing them. As it turned out this wasn't the case. It's a good example why you should thing things through when writing a story.

Actually, I'd have preferred that the Reaper's motives remained a mystery.  Because really, no answer would have made sense to us.  Better to keep them operating on a level we simply can't understand.  Once you try to give them a "reason" Space Cthulhu turns into a Big, Stupid Cuttlefish

[Neverwinter_Knight77]

Hack writing. Apparently they though frightened organics vs ruthless machines with alien reasoning was less interesting than racist caricatures vs robo pinnochios. It wasn't just the quarians, Legion went from a ruthless, calculating logical machine who wanted his people to build their own future into a touchy feely mess who wanted organics to be nice to him and accept him as one of their own.

See the genophage arc as well, where the Krogan were turned into misunderstood victims and the Dalatrass into a racist caricature while Mordin had to develop multiple personality disorder just like Legion to fit the story.

That was another contradiction that bothered me. In ME2, Legion says "The heretics want the old machines to give them the future. Geth prefer to build our own future." I'm paraphrasing, but it was something very close to that. And then in ME3, the geth have run back to Mommy Reaper.

[wolfhowwl]

The Normandy evacuation scene is actually a great example of what I'm talking about. Even if you had a completely plausible in-universe explanation of how it could happen, the scene doesn't work at all. The tone of the beam run is one of total desperation; it's exactly the wrong time to introduce a sentimental 'last goodbye' sequence, particularly when we already had last goodbyes with our squadmates not an hour ago. The scene creates a tonal inconsistency for the sake of hitting character beats we've already hit. If you didn't have those tonal and story issues, I'm not so sure that people would have complained about the plot inconsistency so much. It would still be annoying, but probably more of a minor annoyance.

 

The other goodbye scenes (and the whole firebase) felt odd as well.

[SporkFu]

That was another contradiction that bothered me. In ME2, Legion says "The heretics want the old machines to give them the future. Geth prefer to build our own future." I'm paraphrasing, but it was something very close to that. And then in ME3, the geth have run back to Mommy Reaper.

It's implied that the quarians would have defeated them otherwise. They took Saren's compromise; submission in order to survive. It's funny that, after Sovereign and Saren were defeated, the heretic geth didn't figure out that Saren was full of sh*t. He failed and their god was destroyed. 

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The reapers are approximately 100,000 to 200,000 ly away from the Milky Way galaxy according to the graphic at the end of ME2 in Dark Space. (I used Celestia to get the approximate distance in a relative view) They travel at 30 LY/day according to the codex. It would take them about 9 to 18 years to reach the galaxy by FTL if they started in 2183 when the authors said they did about the time Arrival was released. Magically they they invented Space Magic drive which uses no fuel and can make the journey in 2.5 years without discharging.

 

However, in the end of ME3, The Shepard (aka the Warden) has a conversation with the Arch Demon in the Citadel Tower, and must choose how to end the blight which is the most powerful one ever.

 

Tell me another story about The Shepard.... It's getting late, but alright. One more story.