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[10K]

 

WOOT! It looks like everyone is getting behind this. Maybe we'll get to see all vallaslin designs.

[Dean_the_Young]

 

We're not allowed to learn which elven deity is represented by which tattoo design?

 

 

 

 

While I'm all for the Dalish Inquisitor having a blood writing face tattoo, or vallaslin, since it's part of the lore for all Dalish to receive such a design as a rite of passage (and the Inquisitor is hardly a piddling teenager), I don't understand why we won't get a chance to learn which vallaslin design represents which elven god. Since it's part of the lore for Dalish to receive the vallaslin as a rite of passage no matter what, shouldn't we also be able to learn which design represents which deity so we can better understand the in-game lore, make a more informed choice, and just improve character and roleplay investment overall?

 

It just seems very odd to me to require vallaslin design, each design of which represents an elven deity, but then not reveal which design represents which deity. 

 

 

I always thought that was an insinuation that the Dalish don't know which vallaslin corresponds to which, personally. Which isn't as implausible as it might seem, once you remember that the Dalish culture is mostly educated guesswork on what the Arlathan culture might have been like.

 

It would be a pretty reasonable sort of information degredation over the countless generations, to forget and lose track of which tattoo corresponds to which deity. It could have been like any of those other countless 'everyone knows' public facts that are so obvious that no one writes them down (or, rather, none of the transcriptions survive) until people forget the details that were once taken for granted. So on one side you have the mythology of the gods (or what remains of it), on the other side you have the passed down tatoo traditions and any ancient artwork which reflects the tatoos, but in the middle you lost the connections between the two.

 

Considering some of the things the Dalish lost, it's a pretty modest thing.

 

 

Plus, there's also always the possibility that some Dalish just pick the one that seems coolest. I would be heartily amused if some humans had gotten in on the game of picking out 'edgy' tatoos as well- youthful irresponsibility was how I justified them on my Couseland on my first DAO playthrough.

 

 

[SpiritMuse]

I always thought that was an insinuation that the Dalish don't know which vallaslin corresponds to which, personally. Which isn't as implausible as it might seem, once you remember that the Dalish culture is mostly educated guesswork on what the Arlathan culture might have been like.
 
It would be a pretty reasonable sort of information degredation over the countless generations, to forget and lose track of which tattoo corresponds to which deity. It could have been like any of those other countless 'everyone knows' public facts that are so obvious that no one writes them down (or, rather, none of the transcriptions survive) until people forget the details that were once taken for granted. So on one side you have the mythology of the gods (or what remains of it), on the other side you have the passed down tatoo traditions and any ancient artwork which reflects the tatoos, but in the middle you lost the connections between the two.
 
Considering some of the things the Dalish lost, it's a pretty modest thing.
 
 
Plus, there's also always the possibility that some Dalish just pick the one that seems coolest. I would be heartily amused if some humans had gotten in on the game of picking out 'edgy' tatoos as well- youthful irresponsibility was how I justified them on my Couseland on my first DAO playthrough.

It depends on how old the Vallaslin tradition really is. Did the old immortal Elvhen have them? Or is it something that started only with the Dalish and their attempts to distinguish themselves as "true elves"? Because if the latter (and I suspect that it is) they would of course know exactly what represents what - they came up with it themselves.

[Magdalena11]

It would be fantastic to get a preview of what the Vallaslin look like, but I've changed my mind about having the designs codified by deity.  What happens if the design I like best doesn't represent the deity I think my Inq relates to?  Does that mean I'll have to settle for one that I don't care for if I want to revere that deity?  Also, what happens if next game, they decide to add a bunch of different ones?  Would they have to come out with a new chart?  I think the best approach would be to show what the designs are and say who the deities are and what they represent, and let players decide how they are represented.

[Icy Magebane]

It depends on how old the Vallaslin tradition really is. Did the old immortal Elvhen have them? Or is it something that started only with the Dalish and their attempts to distinguish themselves as "true elves"? Because if the latter (and I suspect that it is) they would of course know exactly what represents what - they came up with it themselves.

The telling of "the Fall of the Dales," includes a line that states that the elves "emblazoned the symbols of the Creators on their faces" as a way to show solidarity after being defeated.  I don't see a reason for this line to have been included if it was a tradition that predated or was already practiced within the Dales... vallaslin seems to be a relatively new tradition, one that is unique to the Dalish clans that arose after the Exalted March on the Dales.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

Sooo.... Vallaslin yet? No? OK...

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Sooo.... Vallaslin yet? No? OK...

At least you know they are working on it now though. 

[Lieutenant Kurin]

At least you know they are working on it now though. 

I'm just trying to keep the thread alive .

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I'm just trying to keep the thread alive .

I can always grumble about them being mandatory if you want. 

[In Exile]

The telling of "the Fall of the Dales," includes a line that states that the elves "emblazoned the symbols of the Creators on their faces" as a way to show solidarity after being defeated.  I don't see a reason for this line to have been included if it was a tradition that predated or was already practiced within the Dales... vallaslin seems to be a relatively new tradition, one that is unique to the Dalish clans that arose after the Exalted March on the Dales.

 

I actually think that tattooing was of some significance to the old elves, and that Fenris's tatoos are actually something that the old, old elves used to do with respect to their templars, and Tevinter stole it from them after the war.

[Icy Magebane]

I actually think that tattooing was of some significance to the old elves, and that Fenris's tatoos are actually something that the old, old elves used to do with respect to their templars, and Tevinter stole it from them after the war.

That's an interesting theory... I could see the Tevinters doing something like that.  After all, a society ruled by mages would have attempted to salvage as much arcane lore as possible during their conquest...

[In Exile]

That's an interesting theory... I could see the Tevinters doing something like that.  After all, a society ruled by mages would have attempted to salvage as much arcane lore as possible during their conquest...

 

It's just too much of a coincidence for me otherwise. Even Merrill remarks on it. And if Merrill notices something that isn't cuddly...

[Icy Magebane]

It's just too much of a coincidence for me otherwise. Even Merrill remarks on it. And if Merrill notices something that isn't cuddly...

One thing I'm not entirely sure about is how this knowledge made its way across the centuries.  Fenris says that warriors with his abilities are rare these days, but perhaps they were more common when the Imperium covered the whole of Thedas... however, two problems arise from this.  First, these abilities are very powerful, so they cannot have been made readily available to non-mages, as this would jeopardize the authority of the Magisters.  Second, if the Tevinters had the ability to create such soldiers in the past, how did Andraste defeat them at all?  It just seems like any army that contained both powerful blood mages as well as a number of lyrium-augmented footsoldiers would have had a huge advantage over a horde of barbarians... even if this knowledge was a closely guarded secret, and they were relatively few in number at the time of the rebellion, wouldn't that have been a good time to start pumping this guys out and sending them to the front lines?

 

Back then, the Tevinters would have had easy access to lyrium as well, so that probably wasn't one of the factors that limited their production once the war began...

 

Like, I can see how Fenris's tattos and vallaslin could have been related, but before I go any further on that, I first need to know why the Tevinters didn't use this technology to preserve their empire...

[herkles]

I wouldn't read into it too much. They're all still polytheists.. they don't just proclaim loyalty to one god. Other elves have had vallaslin that didn't seem obvious for their role. Looks like they just go for design alone. For example, Ariane is using June's mark (the Crafter.. the tree branches), but she's a hunter. While master Ilen has Mythal, but he's the crafter of the clan.

 

Sometimes even Bioware can't make up their minds. Merethari is using Sylaise in DAO, but has Dirthamen in DA2.

 

This. As an actual polytheist IRL(I practice hellenismos; greek polytheistic religion) this is rather true. Just because they might be a crafter doesn't mean they don't honor the goddess of the hunt for example.  Also not every clan IMO would use the same exact symbol. While naturally they would be similar, I can imagine that they would also look different from clan to clan.

[Drasanil]

One thing I'm not entirely sure about is how this knowledge made its way across the centuries.  Fenris says that warriors with his abilities are rare these days, but perhaps they were more common when the Imperium covered the whole of Thedas... however, two problems arise from this.  First, these abilities are very powerful, so they cannot have been made readily available to non-mages, as this would jeopardize the authority of the Magisters.  Second, if the Tevinters had the ability to create such soldiers in the past, how did Andraste defeat them at all?  It just seems like any army that contained both powerful blood mages as well as a number of lyrium-augmented footsoldiers would have had a huge advantage over a horde of barbarians... even if this knowledge was a closely guarded secret, and they were relatively few in number at the time of the rebellion, wouldn't that have been a good time to start pumping this guys out and sending them to the front lines?

 

Back then, the Tevinters would have had easy access to lyrium as well, so that probably wasn't one of the factors that limited their production once the war began...

 

Like, I can see how Fenris's tattos and vallaslin could have been related, but before I go any further on that, I first need to know why the Tevinters didn't use this technology to preserve their empire...

 

Arlathan had legions of Arcane Warriors and yet they couldn't preserve their empire against Tevinter. In Tevinters case we know they were reeling from a blight, internal rebellions and were going through drought and famine. If the barbarian horde was big enough, not hard to see how they could have had a hard time holding them back.

[In Exile]

One thing I'm not entirely sure about is how this knowledge made its way across the centuries.  Fenris says that warriors with his abilities are rare these days, but perhaps they were more common when the Imperium covered the whole of Thedas... however, two problems arise from this.  First, these abilities are very powerful, so they cannot have been made readily available to non-mages, as this would jeopardize the authority of the Magisters.  Second, if the Tevinters had the ability to create such soldiers in the past, how did Andraste defeat them at all?  It just seems like any army that contained both powerful blood mages as well as a number of lyrium-augmented footsoldiers would have had a huge advantage over a horde of barbarians... even if this knowledge was a closely guarded secret, and they were relatively few in number at the time of the rebellion, wouldn't that have been a good time to start pumping this guys out and sending them to the front lines?

 

Back then, the Tevinters would have had easy access to lyrium as well, so that probably wasn't one of the factors that limited their production once the war began...

 

Like, I can see how Fenris's tattos and vallaslin could have been related, but before I go any further on that, I first need to know why the Tevinters didn't use this technology to preserve their empire...

 

Andraste was able to do what she did because her march came after the first blight. It was the first blight that devastated Tevinter's power, its repositories of knowledge, etc. etc. And even so Andraste didn't actually win, just eat into their power in the south of Thedas. Minrathos never fell, for example. 

 

It took an endless horde of darkspawn 200 years to make Tevinter vulnerable to Andraste's exalted march, which I think fits with your evaluation of how powerful Tevinter should have been at the height of its power. 

[Icy Magebane]

Andraste was able to do what she did because her march came after the first blight. It was the first blight that devastated Tevinter's power, its repositories of knowledge, etc. etc. And even so Andraste didn't actually win, just eat into their power in the south of Thedas. Minrathos never fell, for example. 

 

It took an endless horde of darkspawn 200 years to make Tevinter vulnerable to Andraste's exalted march, which I think fits with your evaluation of how powerful Tevinter should have been at the height of its power. 

So basically, by the time Andraste showed up, this knowledge could have been too expensive to be widely available, or it may have even been lost during the Blights but then rediscovered long after Andraste conquered the south (within the last 200 years for example).  Yeah, okay... that works.

 

So with that out of the way, the elven slaves might have passed down stories of their people that included descriptions of tattoos, but had no way of replicating this... the connection to lyrium and the power of the markings was probably lost to the ages, so that by the time the elves wound up in the Dales, all they would have known was that their ancestors once wore tattoos.  They could have figured out the art of blood writing and worn tattoos during their time in the Dales, but the vallaslin only became symbols of cultural and religious unity after they were displaced and became nomads.  Yeah, that sounds logical...

[In Exile]

So basically, by the time Andraste showed up, this knowledge could have been too expensive to be widely available, or it may have even been lost during the Blights but then rediscovered long after Andraste conquered the south (within the last 200 years for example).  Yeah, okay... that works.

 

So with that out of the way, the elven slaves might have passed down stories of their people that included descriptions of tattoos, but had no way of replicating this... the connection to lyrium and the power of the markings was probably lost to the ages, so that by the time the elves wound up in the Dales, all they would have known was that their ancestors once wore tattoos.  They could have figured out the art of blood writing and worn tattoos during their time in the Dales, but the vallaslin only became symbols of cultural and religious unity after they were displaced and became nomads.  Yeah, that sounds logical...

 

Fenris lost his memories when he became tattooed, and if we assume that's the actual effect when the ritual is done right and not either Tevinter screwing it up or doing it on purpose to make their warriors easier to control, it might have been a quasi-religious ritual - something that basically "creates" a blank slate warrior. 

If all the elves took with them was this idea that tattoos are ritualistically important, it makes sense for the Dalish to tattoo themselves with other symbols in honour of their gods. 

[Icy Magebane]

Fenris lost his memories when he became tattooed, and if we assume that's the actual effect when the ritual is done right and not either Tevinter screwing it up or doing it on purpose to make their warriors easier to control, it might have been a quasi-religious ritual - something that basically "creates" a blank slate warrior. 

If all the elves took with them was this idea that tattoos are ritualistically important, it makes sense for the Dalish to tattoo themselves with other symbols in honour of their gods. 

That's pretty hardcore to willing give up your identity in a religious ceremony... it's hard to imagine the ancient elves would practice something like that, but who knows... this is Dragon Age after all, so I probably shouldn't be surprised by any cultural or religious practice the writers come up with, no matter how unsettling.

[In Exile]

Not quite related, but I don't know if it's meant to be templar powers per se. Fenris is kind of half-reaver, half templar. He thrives off of pain. I don't know if that was meant to happen to all warriors of his kind, or that Fenris is just emo.

 

I don't think he thrives off pain, though apparently killing is restorative for him. I wish DA:I gave us his spec instead of the reaver. I like warrior DPS builds but the idea of a reaver is just... ugh. 

[In Exile]

Well, it's similar to Reaver Aura of Pain.

 

His version is Veneer of Calm. "Fenris maintains an appearance of calm, but it is only a facade. Every wound he takes stirs at his deeply buried resentment, increasing his attack damage. "

 

That sounds more like he's powered by anger. Like an anime protagonist.