53 réponses à ce sujet

[Zjarcal]

Ya, I don't see the problem with that. Morgoth in the Silmarillion was basically The Evil One, but one could empathize with him at times as "he alone of the Valar knew fear."
 
Edit: Or the Mummy from those Brendan Frasier Mummy movies... just saw that recently again, he was totally selfish except when it came to his love, and he would burn the whole world to get what he wanted. One is able to empathize, but the dude was evil.

I liked that bit at the end of the Mummy Returns, cuz it was hard not to feel bad for him, but I'd certainly want more depth from the main antagonist in a DA game though.

Pure evil guys can be fun to hate (Handsome Jack in Borderlands 2 for instance), but I'd rather DA sticks to antagonists that are all about shades of grey.

[tmp7704]

Give the antagonist a backstory? Fine. Give them context and motivation for their actions? Cool. Give them layers and dimensions to make them more interesting? Even better.
 
But don't turn around and try to say that judging this character is wrong even after said antagonist has just murdered a thousand orphans and forced their mothers to watch them die. Don't try to say that this is okay just because the villain's daddy and mommy didn't give them enough attention as a child.

But what if the Elder One is just burning down orphanages because he's hitting the Renegade interrupts on his way to win the Green Ending.

[ShadowLordXII]

But what if the Elder One is just burning down orphanages because he's hitting the Renegade interrupts on his way to win the Green Ending.

 

Doesn't make his actions any less better. In fact, since he's trying to win the Green Ending, that makes it way worst.

[ObserverStatus]

 

The Reapers were an awesome antagonistic force...until StarChild ripped the very fabric of the ME trilogy's plot apart with his presence and nonsense.

 

Give the antagonist a backstory? Fine. Give them context and motivation for their actions? Cool. Give them layers and dimensions to make them more interesting? Even better.

 

But don't turn around and try to say that judging this character is wrong even after said antagonist has just murdered a thousand orphans and forced their mothers to watch them die. Don't try to say that this is okay just because the villain's daddy and mommy didn't give them enough attention as a child.

 

That's just silly. In a very dumb way.

I hear you, I was so mad when the worst mass murder in the history of the galaxy justified himself to Shepard, and Shepard didn't call him out on his BS.

[Killdren88]

I don't think the Elder One will have any redeeming qualities, but you never know... I'm sure somebody out there will find a reason to sympathize with it.

 

People believe the Starbrat's insane logic..so anything is possible..

 

As for the topic at hand..I agree..give me a foe that makes me hate them. You can have side Villians and second in commands be sympathetic, but leave Elder One out of that. I want the Elder One to be totally spiteful in what he is doing. His commanders can keep the sad background. Give me a pure malevolent force that MUST be destroyed. Like when you kill one of the Eldre One' commander's they are glad to be dead to be free of his domination. 

[Roamingmachine]

I just ignore the (weak) justifications that the plot gives. If my judgement after dealing with a character is to murderknife them, then that is whats going to happen because he has already crossed the point of no return in my morality meter.  I prefer my game antagonists coherent, rational and unapologetic.

[Aulis Vaara]

Antagonist in my eyes is someone or a group that is evil and must be destroyed (even if they dont get too much background, aka darkspawn)

Villain in my eyes is someone or a group (think legion of doom, not too big a group though) that has a lot of back story and is at odds with the PC a lot during the game (Loghain, Howe for a short time) (darkspawn could be considered, but they are too big a group to be considered a villain)

It's the other way around.

[Innsmouth Dweller]

i'd like if the villain's story (or excuse if you will) was optional - a quest of sorts, books which don't have to be read, background dialogue here and there.

irl you can always judge events and people, repeat after media/others. but sometimes... sometimes you can investigate the circumstances, the history and that could make you change your mind on your own or at least let you realise there is another point of view. you don't have to share or even understand it, but that doesn't make it less valid than yours

[PhroXenGold]

Am I the only person who loves it when the villain is ridiculously over the top scenery chewer without a deep complex background? I think it'd be great if we found ourselves facing someone like...oooohhh...maybe the film version of M. Bison?

[dekarserverbot]

**** yes, bring back "The doctor Mr Evil"s instead of the "Freudians excused dumb guys". Make villians witty, cunning, cold hearthed instead of good intentioned crybabies, Loghain was perfect as vilian (clever, filled with hatred, and cold blooded) , same for Zathrian, the architect, Avernus... every vilian (except maybe the mother) in the Awakening and Origins saga was perfect but Dragon Age 2,,,

 

Poorly written dumb good intentioned guys ("Ruined by you know who" Anders, Meredith, Varric's brother), Arishok (really, arishok REALLY? how is arishok evil if he was a victim?), and the only well done villian was a Dr Frankenstein clone with psycho trait. Dragon age 2 FAILED at delivering a good villain, about ME3 we just met our equivalent to Jar Jar Bins, Sparky or whoever "you ruined the entire saga" person, place or thing you want to name... big deal but not THAT AWFUL as Dragon Age 2 entire "game" was... DA2 was not even worth as an interactive story.

[Lavaeolus]

Everybody is a damn antagonist, im killing everyone regardless of back story, im not giving them a villain.

The Inquisitor stands alone, drenched in blood upon a pile of endless corpses -- the remains of everyone in Thedas. He looks down to his hands, soaked in blood and realizes... he was the antagonist all along.

 

And then, a distant shot of the Inquisitor in silhouette plunging a sword into his stomach.

 

Fade to black, credits roll.

[TheJediSaint]

I'm pretty sure the Elder One was never hugged by his Dad and wet his bed until he was 15.  Therefore, he decided to become an evil god.  Seems legit.

[Medhia_Nox]

I've never once met a psycho I've excused or felt sympathy with.  

 

If you need to be stopped - "why" you're throwing a world spanning fit is not relevant to me.  

 

I don't care if a serial killer loved a puppy - or if a rapist had a bad touch experience as a child - or if a thief is poor.  You're wrong and what you did was wrong.  That I understand "why" you're doing what your doing - will never make you right. 

 

I'm more interested in average people or good people who are brought to the brink of terrible choices and bad decisions.  There IS a difference. 

 

The Elder One can love all the puppies in the world.  Can have a great romantic relationship with his girlfriend... and make some of the best cheese blintzes in Thedas.  He's still going down.

[AlexiaRevan]

I agree . And one more thing to add : LET ME DO The killing! There is nothing that ****** me off more then someone else kill it , or if it end up like : hit 3 buttons open a Vortex and YAY! He get sucked back into his dimension...we WON! . 

[BellPeppers&Beef023]

I have always thought that Bioware is usually pretty good at presenting Both a villain AND an antagonist in some of their games, essentially giving us the protagonists 2 opposing factions that fight against us for different reasons. There is the antagonist Saren, and the 100% evil force of nature Sovereign in Mass Effect. As already mentioned, the antagonist Loghain and the evil force of nature Darkspawn in DA:O. They tried to do that in ME3 with Da Reapers and TIM, and failed spectacularly with the intro of Caspar, but ME3 is not a Bioware game, its a Casey/Mac game pretending to be a Bioware game.

 

Judging from the "Enemy of Thedas" trailer, I feel that The Elder One will be taking the role of a villain, the evil force of nature(ie. the Darkspawn role), except this time with more personality, and a sense of mystery as we attempt to unravel his/her true identity. There are a number of possibilities for the antagonist of the game, and there might even be more than one.

 

I for one am not adverse to facing off against an enemy of pure evil, bereft of any redeeming features, along the lines of Anton Chigurh, Ramsay Snow, Joffrey Baratheon etc. When written well (ie. NOT crazy becoz MAGIC!), they are just so much easier to hate, and it will feel so good when we finally get to smash their smug faces in.

 

Morally grey antagonists are fun and all, and do have their places somewhere, but I am a little weary of Sympathy for the Devil.

[AlexiaRevan]

Hum I don't know . Kotor 1 was made by Bioware and Malak end up : Sniff! That could've been you ! It is all your fault I went evil ' . 

For me the last good evil was Irenicus from BG2 and The Trio in Kotor 2 , but both games weren't from Bioware I think . 

[BellPeppers&Beef023]

Hum I don't know . Kotor 1 was made by Bioware and Malak end up : Sniff! That could've been you ! It is all your fault I went evil ' . 

For me the last good evil was Irenicus from BG2 and The Trio in Kotor 2 , but both games weren't from Bioware I think . 

 

BG2 is Bioware, but I'm not sure how much of a helping hand they've got from BlackIsle (who partially went on to become Obsidian, the company responsible for Kotor 2) storywise.

[Mistic]

Hum I don't know . Kotor 1 was made by Bioware and Malak end up : Sniff! That could've been you ! It is all your fault I went evil ' . 

For me the last good evil was Irenicus from BG2 and The Trio in Kotor 2 , but both games weren't from Bioware I think . 

 

Wait, wasn't Baldur's Gate 2 from Bioware too?

 

And I'm sad people don't remember the main villain from Jade Empire    He was, without a doubt, my favourite Bioware villain ever.

[BloodKaiden]

Y not both?

I wont spoil anything for those who haven't watched it but the tv series Arrow season one main villain had both a ok he must die and holy s*** I get why he is doing this and totally feel for him moment. It got so deep to the point that by the final battle I was rooting for the villain to win. But sometimes its satisfying to see the villain come out up on top while the hero fails and then must live and pick themselves back up to continue the good fight. I'm a sucker for a good villain who wins over the hero for a time though. Personally, I like grey area villains if written beautifully.

[Neon Rising Winter]

I'm with you thats why I loved Loghain and the Arishok as antagonists they never tried to excuse any of their actions no matter how

bad they seemed and were very interesting villians probably the best in DA series so far

 

Loghain I thought was fantastic. Motivations were clear, actions made sense, in another life and a different game he'd have been the renegade hero. The Arishok was a great example of paralysed senior management wreaking chaos, and in another life would have driven a medium sized organisation to insolvency.

 

I'd like a good force of nature type nemesis myself. Forget your puny morality, it just is. I was hopeful with Mass Effect but least said, soonest mended there. This one's a bit talky to be that type. It had started by ripping holes in reality which looked promising, but the trailer gave me the impression it liked a little bit of exposition and will be more grounded in its motivations. Which is not to say I think this is horrible, just if you made me pick my #1 I would like to see next type of enemy, that wouldn't be it.

[Gervaise]

Baldur's Gate 2 was Bioware.  The elves did a pretty horrid thing to Irenicus but that still didn't justify his actions generally and definitely where the PC was concerned.

 

I think the reason DAO worked so well is that we did have a main evil to defeat, the archdemon and its darkspawn cohorts, but we also had Loghain and Arl Howe who had a bit more depth to them.   For me this made it possible to have a character willing to spare Loghain rather than simply go ahead and kill him at the Landsmeet.   It was also interesting that even Arl Howe tried to justify himself to my Cousland noble by suggesting my father was a sell out to the Orlesians.   At this point I hadn't revisited Ostagar, so I thought he was just ranting, but then I did and it got me thinking.   Still thought what he did to my family was terrible but may be he had his paranoia too.

 

In ME the confrontation with Sovereign on Virmire was a great moment.   There it was telling me how superior it was and I was thinking "I'm so going to enjoy taking you down."   The same held true about Harbinger after ME2.    Pity about the ending in ME3 - still ended up taking them down though.

 

I feel that way now about the Elder One.    Regardless of whether I believe in the Maker or not, that taunting speech after blowing apart the peace conference has got my blood up and I'm so looking forward to confronting him.     I agree with the OP that if I'm suddenly given a sob story about why I should sympathise with him, I'll like as not scream.    Seeing as Thedas will be destroyed if you do not close the breach and he is the one driving this, I can't see any way round it, unless you can talk him out of it, which given what has been revealed so far, seems unlikely.   So I'd agree with the OP, let the big bad be evil and leave the sob stories for his minions that he has tricked, coerced or flattered into helping him.     

[Star fury]

Hum I don't know . Kotor 1 was made by Bioware and Malak end up : Sniff! That could've been you ! It is all your fault I went evil ' . 

For me the last good evil was Irenicus from BG2 and The Trio in Kotor 2 , but both games weren't from Bioware I think . 

LMAO, BG2 is considered a Bioware masterpiece.

[Dream]

I'd like another antagonist like Saren. IMO, one of Bioware's best written ones.