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[Icinix]

So more than two years ago I picked up, played and completed Mass Effect 3. Walked away from it and haven't looked at it since. No DLC, no loading up other save games, no nothing.

Mass Effect 1 is still my all time favourite game - and the game that made me finally make the connection between art and games - and while I don't feel Mass Effect 2 did enough to live up to the standards set, it certainly did enough for me to be incredibly excited about Mass Effect 3. Which in turn - arrived and took the wind right out of my sails.

 

At the time I remember posting on these forums that while I was enjoying it - it was a very average game, and lacking a lot of the spark that made the first two games so very special. Spent a lot of time debating / arguing on these forums about it, but even then as everything was unfolding I couldn't quite figure out how I felt about it. When I finally hit the ending, I'd lost interest and was pretty much just going through the motions to finish it. As bad as I found the ending to be, I had found the rest of the game hadn't done anything to make me care too much by that stage.

 

So - after having what was set to be the pinnacle of my adult gaming life come crashing down - after two years I've decided that maybe I should go back and see if my perspective had changed, if I'd changed and if gaming had changed enough to maybe change how I felt about it. I grabbed the Citadel DLC (made sure extended ending was installed too) and for good measure did a couple of re-cap games in ME1 and ME2 before getting stuck into ME3.

 

First off - ME1 I still adore - even after all these years - that game moves me and captures character and story development exceptionally well. If people were to tell me I could take just one game with me for the rest of my life, Mass Effect 1 would be it. I even loved the elevators and the Mako. ME2 wasn't quite as good - but I loved every second of it.

 

...then I came to ME3.

 

What I had hoped would possibly be a fresh look at it - only ended up highlighting the flaws and original issues I had even more.  A common argument against those who didn't like the original endings was "You just don't get it." - and maybe I don't - but more than that, I just don't get Mass Effect 3. It's a polished game for sure, but the many things that made the first two in the series great are gone. I found myself longing for the character development and dialogue choices of the first game. I even found myself longing for the music of the original. While Mass Effect 3 has a great soundtrack that stands on it's own well enough, it doesn't blend with the game like the original did. A great example of soundtracks that blend with their game is The Banner Saga. The ME3 songs feel like they were composed for an eager audience in a theater rather than to bring life and emotion to the games locations. But that is just one point I can bring up among many.

 

As I played through - and the characters that I had adored and even shaped from the first two suddenly altered path and became different people. Sure the argument could be made that people change, but - not like they have. Ashley Williams in particular did a total 180 and as a character is unrecognisable.

I watched mountains of dialogue, and didn't interact - with only an occasional prompt offering some investigative options but little guidance from myself - my avatar simply acting out lines that were not like my character from the first two games. Which is where I think I had such a hard time connecting with Mass Effect 3.

 

No matter which save I loaded, or how I played ME3, or how I loaded and tried different things - the result was always the same.... the Shepard in Mass Effect 3 was not mine. The results of Shepards choices from ME1 and ME2 were certainly there, but my Shepard had been replaced by someone elses who I had no control over.

 

The Citadel DLC only drove home even further all of those flaws that disconnected me from the game. I went on YouTube and watched all of the other variations and I might as well have done that from the start since all of the Shepards are identical. ME1 and ME2 definitely did more to give players freedom to showcase their Shepard as a character.

 

Regardless - I played on and went through much the same series of emotions I went through when I completed it the first (and only prior) time. I'd stopped caring by the end of it.

 

So while I definitely feel that Mass Effect 3 missed the mark and that spark of the previous games, the biggest sin I felt is they took our Shepard away from us.

 

DAO and ME1 did so much to instill the players voice (or text) into the game world - it seems incredibly jarring to be given a cookie cutter character in ME3, DA2 and ToR.

 

What's the point of my TL:DR rant? I don't know - maybe my way of saying adios to Mass Effect. Maybe my way of just getting a lot of thoughts and feelings off my chest. Maybe I'm hoping someone from BioWare reads this and understands what I'm saying. I don't know.

 

...but I hope whatever happens in future BioWare games - they rekindle that player connection with their avatar. That they give back that voice. To call up a particular quote...give the many hope for a future; to ensure that all have a voice in their future.

Anyway - crazy long rant /end

[Iakus]

Bravo, man. Bravo.

[Excella Gionne]

ME3 was the build up of everything we've done to get to the point of taking down the Reapers, but the thing about ME3 is that the flaws were too... uh... apparent to the hardcore fans of the series. It was not very well polished, and the games have always been limited to reused animations that somehow got worse in ME3. And while dialogues aren't the neatest or the best, it is very fluid in ME3 whereas ME1 and ME2, Shepard is a robot. 

 

Reapers are actually the root of the entire problem of Mass Effect, and with what Drew Karpyshyn was gonna go with the series was not going to be pretty. The idea behind the spread of Dark Energy makes an interesting plot but the conclusion of the plot would have been even more disappointing than Mac Walter's ending. I started from ME2 and worked my way back after ME3, and I can say that killing off Shepard was the biggest mistake BioWare made besides introducing Reapers. It really felt like BioWare was rushing the plot with ME2, I mean, 2 years? Really? 2 years just so we can skip to 2186 faster and end the series?

 

If you really think about it, Mass Effect 1 itself could have ended as soon as it started, and thanks to @sH0tgUn jUlia for helping me notice that. ME1 basically had us running around trying to solve a problem that we can't fix by ourselves which was trying to understand the Prothean Beacon. If Shepard could understand it, well, you could see how fast ME1 could have ended. Also, ME1 can have some pretty crappy dialogues given that certain conditions are met prior to the particular event, because of intentional plot circumstances. 

 

As for ME3's soundtrack towards ME1's, ME1's audio was bad. It kind sounded like you were trying to play music background while playing a very silent game. The integration of dialogues and sounds were not very well sync'd and sometimes it would break immersion. ME2 and ME3 fixed that, but ME2 still had a little bit of voice volume issue during fights. The soundtrack by itself though, ME3 would be my pick because, like you said, it's more of a theatrical piece, and that is really my kind of preference. ME1's soundtrack doesn't really shine up to me much at all. Only a few tracks from ME1 are of my liking.

[Icinix]

ME3 was the build up of everything we've done to get to the point of taking down the Reapers, but the thing about ME3 is that the flaws were too... uh... apparent to the hardcore fans of the series. It was not very well polished, and the games have always been limited to reused animations that somehow got worse in ME3. And while dialogues aren't the neatest or the best, it is very fluid in ME3 whereas ME1 and ME2, Shepard is a robot. 

 

Reapers are actually the root of the entire problem of Mass Effect, and with what Drew Karpyshyn was gonna go with the series was not going to be pretty. The idea behind the spread of Dark Energy makes an interesting plot but the conclusion of the plot would have been even more disappointing than Mac Walter's ending. I started from ME2 and worked my way back after ME3, and I can say that killing off Shepard was the biggest mistake BioWare made besides introducing Reapers. It really felt like BioWare was rushing the plot with ME2, I mean, 2 years? Really? 2 years just so we can skip to 2186 faster and end the series?

 

If you really think about it, Mass Effect 1 itself could have ended as soon as it started, and thanks to @sH0tgUn jUlia for helping me notice that. ME1 basically had us running around trying to solve a problem that we can't fix by ourselves which was trying to understand the Prothean Beacon. If Shepard could understand it, well, you could see how fast ME1 could have ended. Also, ME1 can have some pretty crappy dialogues given that certain conditions are met prior to the particular event, because of intentional plot circumstances. 

 

As for ME3's soundtrack towards ME1's, ME1's audio was bad. It kind sounded like you were trying to play music background while playing a very silent game. The integration of dialogues and sounds were not very well sync'd and sometimes it would break immersion. ME2 and ME3 fixed that, but ME2 still had a little bit of voice volume issue during fights. The soundtrack by itself though, ME3 would be my pick because, like you said, it's more of a theatrical piece, and that is really my kind of preference. ME1's soundtrack doesn't really shine up to me much at all. Only a few tracks from ME1 are of my liking.

 

I can't figure out how to break up quotes sorry, so I'll reply in block form.

 

To your first paragraph - yeah - but it's easier to make dialogue to flow when you don't have much in the way of conversation choice from the avatar. Give me robot avatar (or no voice at all) over no dialogue choice at all.

 

To your next two paragraphs - yeah again - but I can handle plot holes, and flaws no worries. Since there really isn't a lot of stories (especially sci-fi) where there isn't any. I can suspend belief etc and all that. As for how it wrapped up - I can also handle 'bad' endings, as long as they're presented and handled well. I didn't mind the destroy / control / synthesis endings - just their presentation. The jumping into a beam, the recurring kid etc, all just got in the way of the actual telling. For Mass Effect 1- yeah - there was definitely some silly things - but when I talk about story progression - Mass Effect 1 felt like a space opera we were directing. Mass Effect 3 felt like a television series we were just watching.

 

To your final paragraph - that was kind of my point - I have a number of Mass Effect 3 soundtrack songs in my playlist and have had 'And End Once and for all" as my wake up alarm for a while. Great songs on their own - in the game they just came across as insert generic epic score here. Where as in Mass Effect 1 - the soundtrack would not be the kind of thing you'd listen to in a playlist - but in the game each one was varied, and brilliantly conveyed the tone and atmosphere of the locations it was used in.

 

The deep thumping synth build up of the original launcher screen will be one of the most iconic pieces of music in games for a long time to come.

[ImaginaryMatter]

ME3 was the build up of everything we've done to get to the point of taking down the Reapers, but the thing about ME3 is that the flaws were too... uh... apparent to the hardcore fans of the series. It was not very well polished, and the games have always been limited to reused animations that somehow got worse in ME3. And while dialogues aren't the neatest or the best, it is very fluid in ME3 whereas ME1 and ME2, Shepard is a robot. 

 

Reapers are actually the root of the entire problem of Mass Effect, and with what Drew Karpyshyn was gonna go with the series was not going to be pretty. The idea behind the spread of Dark Energy makes an interesting plot but the conclusion of the plot would have been even more disappointing than Mac Walter's ending. I started from ME2 and worked my way back after ME3, and I can say that killing off Shepard was the biggest mistake BioWare made besides introducing Reapers. It really felt like BioWare was rushing the plot with ME2, I mean, 2 years? Really? 2 years just so we can skip to 2186 faster and end the series?

 

Eh, I was fine with Shepard being a robot. I think this stems from different ways people see the character. Some see him as an avatar and a reflection of the player more than an actual character, so having more dialogue options better facilitates that; Shepard in this case doesn't have to have much of a personality as there is a roaring see of character in the player's head. ME3 works fine as long as the choices coincide nicely with what the player sees Shepard as thinking, but when they don't -- which is often with only two prompts -- it's a disjointing experience. The flow is better, sure, but the tradeoff is too large. The worst thing though I found about the ME3 dialogue was that it made many scenes exposition dumps.

 

I think the worst idea was the Cerberus reboot, all the time spent on those yokels and all the hammering it took to shoehorn them into the story could have been used to flesh out other parts of the story. Killing off Shepard I think was a byproduct of railroading them into the plot. If ME2 was instead allowed to expand upon the ME1 Reapers, and ME3 upon that, I think they could have been an interesting part of the lore. I'm not sure how it would have fared under Drew K, the DE details were hardly etched out in stone -- I'm not even sure if the idea was either (the same interview had talks of Shepard being an alien and other things that were never implemented under Drew K).

[Vazgen]

You have to take into account the fact that the control we have over the character is just an illusion. No matter what you do or what choices you make you will still follow the tracks the developers made for you. So you always play 'Bioware's Shepard'. That said, some games offer larger 'freedom' than others. You mention watching conversations, instead of taking part in them. ME1 has quite a lot of moments when all three replies result in Shepard saying the same thing. Is it better to have such meaningless dialogue interactions?
I don't know, perhaps my Shepard was close to Bioware's but there were very few moments that felt out of character (like that STEVE!! moment in the final mission). I romanced Jack though (pretty sure Bioware's Shepard will always choose Liara)

[themikefest]

Yep. I was playing femshep's stunt double at times in ME3.

[Iakus]

You have to take into account the fact that the control we have over the character is just an illusion. No matter what you do or what choices you make you will still follow the tracks the developers made for you. So you always play 'Bioware's Shepard'. That said, some games offer larger 'freedom' than others. You mention watching conversations, instead of taking part in them. ME1 has quite a lot of moments when all three replies result in Shepard saying the same thing. Is it better to have such meaningless dialogue interactions?
I don't know, perhaps my Shepard was close to Bioware's but there were very few moments that felt out of character (like that STEVE!! moment in the final mission). I romanced Jack though (pretty sure Bioware's Shepard will always choose Liara)

And here I was playing "Bioware's Shepard" for most of ME2 on...

[Icinix]

You have to take into account the fact that the control we have over the character is just an illusion. No matter what you do or what choices you make you will still follow the tracks the developers made for you. So you always play 'Bioware's Shepard'. That said, some games offer larger 'freedom' than others. You mention watching conversations, instead of taking part in them. ME1 has quite a lot of moments when all three replies result in Shepard saying the same thing. Is it better to have such meaningless dialogue interactions?
I don't know, perhaps my Shepard was close to Bioware's but there were very few moments that felt out of character (like that STEVE!! moment in the final mission). I romanced Jack though (pretty sure Bioware's Shepard will always choose Liara)

There is definitely times in ME1 where the 'choices' resulted in the same dialogue, for sure - but there was less of them than there wasn't. Even that aside - is it better to have meaningless dialogue interaction? Yeah - I think it is. Citadel in particular - I felt like I was watching an episode of Friends. Had there been times where there were breaks in conversation for a choice - even if that choice was the same -I could at least instill the motiviation of my character into that choice. Regardless of if the game noted it or not. That player engagement does more good I feel.

Among my Mass Effect 1 and 2 saves - there is probably 3 or 4 Shepard that are noticeably different in their world states and themselves as a character - and not one of the imports into ME3 has brought them across as a character though, so I think there is still something to be said for how ME1 and to a lesser extend ME2 handled player dialogue.

[Vazgen]

There is definitely times in ME1 where the 'choices' resulted in the same dialogue, for sure - but there was less of them than there wasn't. Even that aside - is it better to have meaningless dialogue interaction? Yeah - I think it is. Citadel in particular - I felt like I was watching an episode of Friends. Had there been times where there were breaks in conversation for a choice - even if that choice was the same -I could at least instill the motiviation of my character into that choice. Regardless of if the game noted it or not. That player engagement does more good I feel.

Among my Mass Effect 1 and 2 saves - there is probably 3 or 4 Shepard that are noticeably different in their world states and themselves as a character - and not one of the imports into ME3 has brought them across as a character though, so I think there is still something to be said for how ME1 and to a lesser extend ME2 handled player dialogue.

 

Personally, I prefer different options in dialogue. If no matter what I say results in a same line with the same tone from Shepard all my thoughts about that 'choice' will go to trash (assuming they didn't match with Shepard's outlook). I very much prefer not to have a break in the conversation for nothing. Better to have it flow naturally and give control to the player when he can actually change something. 

Also, I noticed it only recently - the characters in ME3 talk longer. They speak more and that makes it feel like you're watching a movie sometimes, because you have no control over it. Me, I liked that

[angol fear]

And here I was playing "Bioware's Shepard" for most of ME2 on...

You were playing Bioware's Shepard since Mass Effect 1.

[AlanC9]

I can't figure out how to break up quotes sorry, so I'll reply in block form.
 

Really? It's pretty standard stuff --- "(quote)" begins a quote block, "(/quote)" ends it, substituting square brackets for the parentheses.

[Icinix]

Really? It's pretty standard stuff --- "(quote)" begins a quote block, "(/quote)" ends it, substituting square brackets for the parentheses.

I'm sure it is for some people.

I was replying on my phone and nothing was pretty standard stuff.

[Icinix]

Personally, I prefer different options in dialogue. If no matter what I say results in a same line with the same tone from Shepard all my thoughts about that 'choice' will go to trash (assuming they didn't match with Shepard's outlook). I very much prefer not to have a break in the conversation for nothing. Better to have it flow naturally and give control to the player when he can actually change something. 

Also, I noticed it only recently - the characters in ME3 talk longer. They speak more and that makes it feel like you're watching a movie sometimes, because you have no control over it. Me, I liked that

Yeah - I get that, but it's definitely that it felt more like a movie that took me out further than drag me in.

I used to describe Mass Effect 1 as an interactive choose your own movie - so losing the interactive part has definitely been the biggest factor in my detachment from the brand.

[Han Shot First]

I thought ME1 was the weakest game of the series in terms of character development and dialogue. Shepard was kind of a brick at times and didn't have a whole lot of personality, and the squadmates stood ramrod still in conversation while delivering info dumps. The alien squadmates in particular, with the exception of Wrex, come off to varying degrees like walking codex entries. There are some areas where ME1 was superior to parts of the two sequels, but character interaction and dialogue weren't among them in my opinon. I think that is one of the area of the series that for the most part, improved with each chapter.

[Icinix]

I thought ME1 was the weakest game of the series in terms of character development and dialogue. Shepard was kind of a brick at times and didn't have a whole lot of personality, and the squadmates stood ramrod still in conversation while delivering info dumps. The alien squadmates in particular, with the exception of Wrex, come off to varying degrees like walking codex entries. There are some areas where ME1 was superior to parts of the two sequels, but character interaction and dialogue weren't among them in my opinon. I think that is one of the area of the series that for the most part, improved with each chapter.

 

Do you mean weakest in terms of animation and voice work?

I don't mind the stand and deliver nature of Mass Effect 1, mainly because when you're talking to people - in general it is very stand and deliver, where as some of the later series over the top animation (Mass Effect 3 and Shepards epic speech moment) look utterly ridiculous. While technically the animation and voice over work was superior - a lot of it came across as movement in conversations for the sake of movement, and the voice work itself brought out more of the acting side of the voice actors rather than feeling like a natural conversation. Mass Effect 1 felt like the actors were in the same room, Mass Effect 3 felt like they recorded their lines and then hacked them together.

 

Just my opinion of it of course. Most of Mass Effect 3 I felt like I was just running past characters and hitting the space bar to hear a few throw away lines of ambient dialogue, where as in Mass Effect 1 - I felt like I was actually interacting with everyone.

[Vazgen]

ME2 and 3 had greatly improved the working conditions for voice actors. You can hear both Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale mentioning it in their interviews. In ME1 they had paper script. In 2 and 3 they got the lines on a screen next to them and started to actually hear what the other characters say in their headphones, allowing to adjust or set the tone of conversation. That's why ME1 lines sometimes feel disconnected from what you were saying earlier or don't match the overall tone of conversation well. At least that was the case with Meer's voice. You can hear how drastic is the improvement in Meer's voice acting in 2 and even more in 3 - that's not only due to his talent (which is quite large, the guy voiced both Shepard and vorcha!).

[Han Shot First]

Do you mean weakest in terms of animation and voice work?
 

 

I thought character dialogue and interaction in ME1 was the weakest of the series in terms of writing, animation, and voice work.

[Excella Gionne]

I thought character dialogue and interaction in ME1 was the weakest of the series in terms of writing, animation, and voice work.

I think ME3's animations were a bit worse when it came to Conrad and Kasumi's side mission... those scenes were just bad and unbelievably unbelievable.

[Vazgen]

I think ME3's animations were a bit worse when it came to Conrad and Kasumi's side mission... those scenes were just bad and unbelievably unbelievable.

Have you seen how Shepard knocks the gun out of Balak's hand? Hilarious

[Excella Gionne]

Have you seen how Shepard knocks the gun out of Balak's hand? Hilarious

Is it that slap animation? I've never killed Balak...

[Vazgen]

 

Is it that slap animation? I've never killed Balak...

 

Yeah  Shepard should've died about 10 times in real life lol

[Han Shot First]

The worst animation was Kasumi's ninja acrobatics on top of a moving gunship during her ME2 loyalty mission.

[voteDC]

You have to take into account the fact that the control we have over the character is just an illusion.

And yet Mass Effect 1 maintains that illusion. Yes a dialogue choice may result in the same line but it is the intent the player is putting into that line when choosing it that maintains that illusion.
 

Maintaining the illusion is incredibly important. Dragon Age: Origins maintains it even with text. I've picked the same dialogue option but it 'changes' depending on how I am playing them.

Perhaps the best illusion of choice game for me is Telltale's The Walking Dead (the first season, I haven't finished the second yet). You know the game is going to play out a certain way no matter what. It's a game, it has to. Yet they managed to inject so much emotion into each choice you made and how you interacted with Clem that you really did believe you could change things. In the final episode of the first season I still hammer the A button in an attempt to get Lee up as hard as I did the first time I played. The illusion is always there.

Yet with Mass effect 3 I find myself agreeing with icinix. It feels like Shepard has been replaced with a look-a-like. Similar but not quite right (the fact that face imports still aren't right doesn't help.) I find myself wondering why my colonist Shepards care so much about Earth but don't make comment about the place they grew up (Mindoir) except in an optional DLC. 

Why the hell was my Butcher of Torfan having nightmares about a kid she didn't know. She wouldn't have given that kid a second thought.

Ah I could rant about this for a long time, so will have to restrain myself.

A final thing was the amount of passive, Zaeed style, conversations on the ship. My biggest ones I disliked was the Tali drunk scene. Yes it was funny but why the hell couldn't my Shepard slap that drink out of her hand and say "you can get drunk on shore leave. On this ship you are always on duty."

Again, Mass Effect 3 broke the illusion of choice. We all know it is there but we don't need it pointed out to us.

[Vazgen]

 

Maintaining the illusion is incredibly important.

I agree, but for me that illusion is not about whether I make that choice or it's made for me. That illusion is the illusion of being in the world, connecting to those characters, 'feel' the game from the inside of that universe, not as a spectator.

For me, Mass Effect 3 maintained that illusion, it had some of the most emotional moments I've ever experienced in gaming and Zaeed-style dialogues didn't have negative impact on that. I'll say again, maybe it's due to my Shepard being close to Bioware's. 

I don't understand that point about intent when choosing the line. Later in the game that intent completely disappeared for me, it became - top=Paragon, bottom=Renegade, middle=neutral. I rarely checked bottom option since it was usually something that an a**hole would say (at least that short description was written that way). My roleplay became based on Shepard's actual words, not the dialogue options I pick. So, I guess my roleplay became retrospective, it evolved with Shepard's each conversation.

I completely agree with lack of background impact, but that is the case for all the games in the series. ME3 at least has some mentions of your background, ME2 didn't have any that I can name off the top of my head. ME1 had them the most and it made sense, because at that time Shepard is known as, say, "The Butcher of Torfan" rather than "The savior of the Citadel, Captain of the Normandy".