124 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I thought character dialogue and interaction in ME1 was the weakest of the series in terms of writing, animation, and voice work.

You mean you didn't like all those info dumps?

[Ieldra]

So while I definitely feel that Mass Effect 3 missed the mark and that spark of the previous games, the biggest sin I felt is they took our Shepard away from us.

This x100000. I feel my Shepards died twice. One time at the end, but really they were slowly killed an inch at a time by what came before.

[Dean_the_Young]

You mean you didn't like all those info dumps?

 

Enough people did to want to romance Tali.

 

Admittedly, that might have been because of the accent and the surprisingly feminine but modest character design she had at the time.

[IntoTheDarkness]

No matter which save I loaded, or how I played ME3, or how I loaded and tried different things - the result was always the same.... the Shepard in Mass Effect 3 was not mine. The results of Shepards choices from ME1 and ME2 were certainly there, but my Shepard had been replaced by someone elses who I had no control over.

 

This. More disappointing since I didn't even like Bioware's version of Shepard. ****** crybaby.

[Han Shot First]

You mean you didn't like all those info dumps?

 

I liked them, just not how they were delivered. Codex entries would have been better, so the dialogue budget for your alien squaddies wasn't squandered on telling you about their race or government instead of themselves. Compare Liara, Garrus, and Tali to Ashley and Kaidan from ME1. You get a better sense of who your two human characters are because they don't have info dump dialogue to explain what humans are. Tali is by far the worst offender in that regard, with barely any personal dialogue at all, but Garrus and Liara had their walking codex entry moments as well.

[Icinix]

 

 

I agree, but for me that illusion is not about whether I make that choice or it's made for me. That illusion is the illusion of being in the world, connecting to those characters, 'feel' the game from the inside of that universe, not as a spectator.

For me, Mass Effect 3 maintained that illusion, it had some of the most emotional moments I've ever experienced in gaming and Zaeed-style dialogues didn't have negative impact on that. I'll say again, maybe it's due to my Shepard being close to Bioware's. 

I don't understand that point about intent when choosing the line. Later in the game that intent completely disappeared for me, it became - top=Paragon, bottom=Renegade, middle=neutral. I rarely checked bottom option since it was usually something that an a**hole would say (at least that short description was written that way). My roleplay became based on Shepard's actual words, not the dialogue options I pick. So, I guess my roleplay became retrospective, it evolved with Shepard's each conversation.

I completely agree with lack of background impact, but that is the case for all the games in the series. ME3 at least has some mentions of your background, ME2 didn't have any that I can name off the top of my head. ME1 had them the most and it made sense, because at that time Shepard is known as, say, "The Butcher of Torfan" rather than "The savior of the Citadel, Captain of the Normandy". 

 

I guess I never really got into the top for paragon, bottom for renegade mentality.

 

Most of my saves had a pretty diverse coverage. In particular something that I feel was lost in 2 and 3 - was the charm / intimidate choice. When they were in play the outcome was something very different, with them offering something that sat well outside those two mentalities, and were one of the things I most disappointed to see go - replaced instead by the true paragon / renegade options - only for them to lose focus to prompts which also lost all meaning.

 

Just out of curiosity - have you ever gone through Mass Effect 1 - 3 taking those choices you thought were generally ahole choices?

[Vazgen]

I guess I never really got into the top for paragon, bottom for renegade mentality.

Most of my saves had a pretty diverse coverage. In particular something that I feel was lost in 2 and 3 - was the charm / intimidate choice. When they were in play the outcome was something very different, with them offering something that sat well outside those two mentalities, and were one of the things I most disappointed to see go - replaced instead by the true paragon / renegade options - only for them to lose focus to prompts which also lost all meaning.

 

Just out of curiosity - have you ever gone through Mass Effect 1 - 3 taking those choices you thought were generally ahole choices?

 

I tried to, but did not import him in ME2. My character ended up being a bully, too insecure to let someone close, trying to act tough and being unnecessarily rough to the others. I could not relate to that character, it was too far from my real self. It may be a fault of how I play the games, but my characters (in any game really) have something of myself in them, something I can relate to. Earthborn Sole Survivor Kyle Shepard was not such a character. 

Interestingly enough, my 'canon' Shepard went from being, like, 90% Paragon in ME1 to Paragade in ME2 and 3. I used much more renegade options and interrupts in ME2 and 3 than I thought I would on such a character.

Renegade/paragon dialogue choices are basically win buttons in all games, always providing the best rewards. Interrupts also do that, but some interrupts don't give you any rewards, they only make your character act differently which is good for RP.

[Icinix]

I tried to, but did not import him in ME2. My character ended up being a bully, too insecure to let someone close, trying to act tough and being unnecessarily rough to the others. I could not relate to that character, it was too far from my real self. It may be a fault of how I play the games, but my characters (in any game really) have something of myself in them, something I can relate to. Earthborn Sole Survivor Kyle Shepard was not such a character. 

Interestingly enough, my 'canon' Shepard went from being, like, 90% Paragon in ME1 to Paragade in ME2 and 3. I used much more renegade options and interrupts in ME2 and 3 than I thought I would on such a character.

Renegade/paragon dialogue choices are basically win buttons in all games, always providing the best rewards. Interrupts also do that, but some interrupts don't give you any rewards, they only make your character act differently which is good for RP.

I think I only have one carry over save that is, closest to how I would perceive myself to be in game. The rest were combinations of choices, but distinctive enough that each character if held up side by side would be quite different.

 

While I think it's fair that there is a lot of bottom choices in ME1 and ME2 that are more jerk Shepard - there is still plenty that just seem to make Shepard a gruff, politically incorrect character with no time for nonsense with certain people, which allowed enough diversity in dialogue to express that.

 

Where I think the charm / intimidate options were different than paragon / renegade options in later games - is that you could do things that....resulted in an outcome that a paragon or renegade might be surprised at. That comes back to that streamlining to one Shepard throughout the series though.

 

I don't know - I guess people are going to have lots of different mileage on it, and the merits of how the systems worked / didn't work are going to be different for everyone, but after the last few games I'm interested to see how DAI and future games approach it - because it is something at the very least I hope they're having a good solid look at over previous games.

 

..in the mean time though - this thread has been very therapeutic. I haven't spent a lot of time on the new forums - but the level of discussion is a lot more friendly that what it was when I bailed from the old ones. 

[Vazgen]

I think I only have one carry over save that is, closest to how I would perceive myself to be in game. The rest were combinations of choices, but distinctive enough that each character if held up side by side would be quite different.

 

While I think it's fair that there is a lot of bottom choices in ME1 and ME2 that are more jerk Shepard - there is still plenty that just seem to make Shepard a gruff, politically incorrect character with no time for nonsense with certain people, which allowed enough diversity in dialogue to express that.

 

Where I think the charm / intimidate options were different than paragon / renegade options in later games - is that you could do things that....resulted in an outcome that a paragon or renegade might be surprised at. That comes back to that streamlining to one Shepard throughout the series though.

 

I don't know - I guess people are going to have lots of different mileage on it, and the merits of how the systems worked / didn't work are going to be different for everyone, but after the last few games I'm interested to see how DAI and future games approach it - because it is something at the very least I hope they're having a good solid look at over previous games.

 

That's why I hope new Mass Effect will mix up those options, make it not to seem crystal clear which one is for the "good guy" and which one for the "bad". Dragon Age 2 had it even worse, it showed icons to make it absolutely clear what will the option lead to. It's a RP killer, you always see what you character 'feels' when saying the line. Origins had it much better but that way won't work with voiced protagonist. That's one more reason why I fear that we won't have multiple races to choose from - they would have to hire two people for each race with protagonist dialogue coverage. 

 

..in the mean time though - this thread has been very therapeutic. I haven't spent a lot of time on the new forums - but the level of discussion is a lot more friendly that what it was when I bailed from the old ones. 

 

I joined about a week ago, seeing how helpful and polite the community is. Never would've thought it was different We're all fans of these games and I enjoy discussing them with others.

[AlanC9]

Dragon Age 2 had it even worse, it showed icons to make it absolutely clear what will the option lead to. It's a RP killer, you always see what you character 'feels' when saying the line.

Wait... how is that a problem? I want to know what my character feels when saying a line, so I know if that's the line I want.

[Vazgen]

Wait... how is that a problem? I want to know what my character feels when saying a line, so I know if that's the line I want.

It is not a problem unless you are roleplaying and your character's feelings differ from what the icon shows. Can't you figure out what line you want by simply reading that line?

[AlanC9]

It is not a problem unless you are roleplaying and your character's feelings differ from what the icon shows. Can't you figure out what line you want by simply reading that line?

This is a bit confused. In DA2/DAI/ME I'm looking at a paraphrase, not the line itself. Choosing a line because I like the paraphrase text without regard for its icon (or Paragon/Neutral/Renegade status) is simply a mistake, since the paraphrase text is meant to be understood in the context the icon provides.

But let's say, hypothetically, that we were seeing tone icons with the full lines. This still looks like an improvement to me, since I don't just want to know what my PC will say, I want to know how he's going to say it. A lot of the time I would be able to infer the tone from the text, so the icon would be superfluous. But occasionally the text would be ambiguous, and the tone would help me know what the PC was actually going to do if I hit that option.

[SilJeff]

Bioware has been "stealing" "your" shepards well before ME3. Don't understand why so many pretend this is a 3-only issue, because streamlining has been a thing since the beginning, and has been an obvious thing since ME2 forced you to be with Cerberus

[Iakus]

Bioware has been "stealing" "your" shepards well before ME3. Don't understand why so many pretend this is a 3-only issue, because streamlining has been a thing since the beginning, and has been an obvious thing since ME2 forced you to be with Cerberus

I don't diagree with this sentiment.  But the loss of one's character is felt most keenly when you are forced to watch them burn.

[Ieldra]

It is not a problem unless you are roleplaying and your character's feelings differ from what the icon shows. Can't you figure out what line you want by simply reading that line?

That's an odd way to look at it. For me, the icons represented intent I could attach to my characters, not what they were feeling at the time. For instance, they may feel annoyed according to how I imagined their minds to work, but if I thought they would choose the diplomatic option regardless, I chose the icon with the olive branch.

[Ieldra]

Bioware has been "stealing" "your" shepards well before ME3. Don't understand why so many pretend this is a 3-only issue, because streamlining has been a thing since the beginning, and has been an obvious thing since ME2 forced you to be with Cerberus

Before ME3 (or more precisely, before ME2/Arrival), that streamlining rarely extended to character traits, and where it did, it was minor. You usually got options to determine how your Shepard would react, for instance when talking with TIM about joining Cerberus, before ultimately being made to agree. ME2 occasionally took over your Shepard's actions, but their mind was left alone. Only in ME3 did that change. 

[Vazgen]

This is a bit confused. In DA2/DAI/ME I'm looking at a paraphrase, not the line itself. Choosing a line because I like the paraphrase text without regard for its icon (or Paragon/Neutral/Renegade status) is simply a mistake, since the paraphrase text is meant to be understood in the context the icon provides.

First, all three games feature different dialogue systems. DA: O has full lines written and non-voiced protagonist, ME doesn't have icons and DA2 has them. Second, color coding pushes the player even more into the top=nice, bottom=rude mentality. After some time you start not to read the paraphrases entirely, just click them automatically when seeing the color. Paraphrase gives the idea of what the character will say, the icon - what tone he'll use.

For instance, they may feel annoyed according to how I imagined their minds to work, but if I thought they would choose the diplomatic option regardless, I chose the icon with the olive branch.

I see an icon that tells "diplomatic" and that already has an impact on how I view the line that is to follow. I find it harder to RP that your character is barely holding himself not to blow up when picking "diplomatic" options, that feeling is watered down to simply being annoyed. Color coding negatively impacts my ability to RP characters prone to emotional instability.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Did MY Shepard want to be in Cerberus? No. Did I have a choice? No. Well I could say Mass Effect 3 was a great place to re-start. But I was with Cerberus, so act like it, dammit! Your team is a group of society's outcasts, aka "the dirty dozen." So was this my Shepard? No. My Shepard was the dumb ass who thought Asari needed other species to reproduce. My Shepard thought Not Legion was Legion, and told Not Legion, "You're Legion for this mission" because she was too dumb to know that it was really Not Legion until the last leg of Rannoch.

[AlanC9]

First, all three games feature different dialogue systems. DA: O has full lines written and non-voiced protagonist, ME doesn't have icons and DA2 has them.

My point was that P/R fulfills the same function for ME that the icons fulfill for DA2 (and apparently DAI). I see the two systems as functionally identical, though the DA2 system is slightly superior since it has more possible tones for the dialogue than Paragon/Neutral/Renegade. But I guess we agree about that part.

Second, color coding pushes the player even more into the top=nice, bottom=rude mentality. After some time you start not to read the paraphrases entirely, just click them automatically when seeing the color. Paraphrase gives the idea of what the character will say, the icon - what tone he'll use.

You click automatically on the options based on color? It would never occur to me to play that way. Or are you worrying about other players doing that?

I see an icon that tells "diplomatic" and that already has an impact on how I view the line that is to follow. I find it harder to RP that your character is barely holding himself not to blow up when picking "diplomatic" options, that feeling is watered down to simply being annoyed. Color coding negatively impacts my ability to RP characters prone to emotional instability.

Hmm. Are you sure the real problem here isn't with the spoken diplomatic lines themselves rather than the selection method?

[Farangbaa]

 

 

I agree, but for me that illusion is not about whether I make that choice or it's made for me. That illusion is the illusion of being in the world, connecting to those characters, 'feel' the game from the inside of that universe, not as a spectator.

For me, Mass Effect 3 maintained that illusion, it had some of the most emotional moments I've ever experienced in gaming and Zaeed-style dialogues didn't have negative impact on that. I'll say again, maybe it's due to my Shepard being close to Bioware's. 

I don't understand that point about intent when choosing the line. Later in the game that intent completely disappeared for me, it became - top=Paragon, bottom=Renegade, middle=neutral. I rarely checked bottom option since it was usually something that an a**hole would say (at least that short description was written that way). My roleplay became based on Shepard's actual words, not the dialogue options I pick. So, I guess my roleplay became retrospective, it evolved with Shepard's each conversation.

I completely agree with lack of background impact, but that is the case for all the games in the series. ME3 at least has some mentions of your background, ME2 didn't have any that I can name off the top of my head. ME1 had them the most and it made sense, because at that time Shepard is known as, say, "The Butcher of Torfan" rather than "The savior of the Citadel, Captain of the Normandy". 

 

 

The description Bioware gives are sometimes so incredibly off.. .like in Citadel DLC, after you beat Jacob the line says something like: "I couldn't hold back", but Shepard says:

 

"And that's how it's done kids"

 

What the? I don't... what?

[Farangbaa]

This is how I felt about ME2.

 

Sole Survivor Shepard?

 

Must've been.

[Vazgen]

You click automatically on the options based on color? It would never occur to me to play that way. Or are you worrying about other players doing that?

I used to. It became quite an annoying habit of mine that took some time to overcome. I view icons in dialogue wheel as dumbing down the system, not improving it. Would you want icons for paragon, renegade, neutral in ME dialogue wheel? I would not, because they don't add anything, they serve the same function as the paraphrase. 

 

Hmm. Are you sure the real problem here isn't with the spoken diplomatic lines themselves rather than the selection method? 

I'm sure, because the lines are spoken after picking a certain dialogue option. It affects me before the character speaks

[Icinix]

Bioware has been "stealing" "your" shepards well before ME3. Don't understand why so many pretend this is a 3-only issue, because streamlining has been a thing since the beginning, and has been an obvious thing since ME2 forced you to be with Cerberus

I'm not saying it's only in ME3 - but there is definitely a lot less choice in conversations - both in the conversations themselves and the feel of choice.

 

Regardless of where it finally became the norm - it's hugely damaging and of everything I didn't like about ME3 - the one thing that kills it for me - is that dialogue handling.

[congokong]

Oh look, another "I didn't like ME3" thread. ME3 was my favorite in terms of gameplay/story. Yes, it had its faults. For me it was the complete lack of 1 liners and character role-playing. ME2 had everything going for it but still wasn't my favorite because I could never get over the whole "Shepard back from the dead and now working for Cerberus" concept. I'm strongly against killing off and then reviving characters. There's only a few stories where it doesn't come across as stupid/out of place such as the Supernatural TV series. ME1 had a great story/dialogue but the gameplay was so painfully boring. Plus those tedious Mako drives on barren landscape. Just awful. DA:O also had bad gameplay but not quite this bad. Bioware seems to improve gameplay with its sequels. This post is probably a minority opinion but there it is.