124 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

This one's special because it's a thread from someone who didn't much like ME2 either.

[AlanC9]

I used to. It became quite an annoying habit of mine that took some time to overcome. I view icons in dialogue wheel as dumbing down the system, not improving it. Would you want icons for paragon, renegade, neutral in ME dialogue wheel? I would not, because they don't add anything, they serve the same function as the paraphrase.

This makes no sense. The position of the paraphrases on the wheel already tells you whether they're Paragon, neutral, or Renegade. Adding icons to ME wouldn't change anything at all except for wasting screen space. The top option would get a Paragon icon, the bottom gets a Renegade icon, others are neutral.

Unless "the paraphrase" is a typo, and you meant that the icons serve the same function as the position? In that case I agree, but I don't see how presenting the same information twice would be much of a problem.

[Vazgen]

The position of the paraphrases on the wheel already tells you whether they're Paragon, neutral, or Renegade. Adding icons to ME wouldn't change anything at all except for wasting screen space.

^This is what I meant by that last statement. For me it's the same waste of space in DA2. And I really hope that they will 1) not use icons in the dialogue wheel in new ME 2) mix the options, so you no longer automatically know which option is paragon and which one is renegade.

[AlanC9]

So you want less information about what the PC is going to say? Why? I don't see why introducing confusion about the tone of the PC's line is a good thing.

[Vazgen]

Because it will give each conversation option more weight. You'll be forced to think a little before picking an option which is somewhat similar to real life. DA: O had a little of that feel due to full dialogue lines but it was a little too much. However, having those short paraphrased options mixed will be a great balance between two systems.

[Obadiah]

The DA2 icons have the advantage of helping the player avoid "accidentally" "romancing" someone.

[AlanC9]

Because it will give each conversation option more weight. You'll be forced to think a little before picking an option which is somewhat similar to real life. DA: O had a little of that feel due to full dialogue lines but it was a little too much. However, having those short paraphrased options mixed will be a great balance between two systems.

I really don't follow this. Sure, without P/R or icons it would be harder work to figure out what the PC is going to say, and I'm more likely to get it wrong. But how is it a good thing to make it harder for me to predict what the Bio writer did? It's more work, yeah, but why is it useful work?

Hell, I'd want tone icons even if we had the full text, so I not only know what the PC is going to say but how he'll say it.

[Icinix]

Oh look, another "I didn't like ME3" thread. ME3 was my favorite in terms of gameplay/story. Yes, it had its faults. For me it was the complete lack of 1 liners and character role-playing. ME2 had everything going for it but still wasn't my favorite because I could never get over the whole "Shepard back from the dead and now working for Cerberus" concept. I'm strongly against killing off and then reviving characters. There's only a few stories where it doesn't come across as stupid/out of place such as the Supernatural TV series. ME1 had a great story/dialogue but the gameplay was so painfully boring. Plus those tedious Mako drives on barren landscape. Just awful. DA:O also had bad gameplay but not quite this bad. Bioware seems to improve gameplay with its sequels. This post is probably a minority opinion but there it is.

I definitely don't think that's a minority view - I believe generally the consensus is ME3 had the best overall gameplay, just that that's not how I feel about it. I traditionally like slower gameplay in story games and save the fast gameplay for quick action multiplayer. As for the Mako, when people ask me what my favourite moment in Mass Effect is, it was the first time I was driving the Mako across some ice planet with a snow storm whipping from right to left on the screen and a hazy sun barely visible through it. If anything captured the freedom I felt from Mass Effect 1 - it was that moment.... plus the lols at the Mako rolling down a hill because I missed the easy way up.

[Vazgen]

I really don't follow this. Sure, without P/R or icons it would be harder work to figure out what the PC is going to say, and I'm more likely to get it wrong. But how is it a good thing to make it harder for me to predict what the Bio writer did? It's more work, yeah, but why is it useful work?

Hell, I'd want tone icons even if we had the full text, so I not only know what the PC is going to say but how he'll say it.

I'll try to explain it. The dialogue lines your character speaks are dependent on a voice actor. They don't get those tone icons for the lines they speak - they voice them based on a line that came before, so the overall tone of conversation is preserved. Thus, the indicator of a tone is irrelevant, because no matter what you choose, the conversation will carry on naturally. Say, there are diplomatic/joking/aggressive icons in the dialogue wheel. If the character was perfectly calm before that, you won't get sudden outbursts of anger, even if you pick the aggressive option (if the voice actor is good). That can work in Skyrim, where the conversation tone is non-existent, you can insult a person and then praise him in the next line and there is no reaction, because you can exhaust the same dialogue option over and over again. It's not the case in ME and DA games (unless you choose Investigate option, but this is not the point of discussion). There is a lot of variety in every tone, like, for example, diplomatic option can lead to aggressively diplomatic, jokingly diplomatic and all other versions of diplomatic that make sense within the said conversation. The icon basically tells you that the character is going to try diplomatic approach - something you should clearly understand from reading the paraphrase. Positioning of those options is the same as icons, only a bit more subtle. You always know that the top option is diplomatic, bottom option is aggressive and middle option is neutral, without even reading the paraphrases. Mixing these up will make people pay attention to paraphrases more and will result in more interesting characters because, I think you'll agree, Paragade/Renegon characters are more interesting than pure Paragon/pure Renegade characters

[Farangbaa]

I'll try to explain it. The dialogue lines your character speaks are dependent on a voice actor. They don't get those tone icons for the lines they speak - they voice them based on a line that came before, so the overall tone of conversation is preserved. Thus, the indicator of a tone is irrelevant, because no matter what you choose, the conversation will carry on naturally. Say, there are diplomatic/joking/aggressive icons in the dialogue wheel. If the character was perfectly calm before that, you won't get sudden outbursts of anger, even if you pick the aggressive option (if the voice actor is good). That can work in Skyrim, where the conversation tone is non-existent, you can insult a person and then praise him in the next line and there is no reaction, because you can exhaust the same dialogue option over and over again. It's not the case in ME and DA games (unless you choose Investigate option, but this is not the point of discussion). There is a lot of variety in every tone, like, for example, diplomatic option can lead to aggressively diplomatic, jokingly diplomatic and all other versions of diplomatic that make sense within the said conversation. The icon basically tells you that the character is going to try diplomatic approach - something you should clearly understand from reading the paraphrase. Positioning of those options is the same as icons, only a bit more subtle. You always know that the top option is diplomatic, bottom option is aggressive and middle option is neutral, without even reading the paraphrases. Mixing these up will make people pay attention to paraphrases more and will result in more interesting characters because, I think you'll agree, Paragade/Renegon characters are more interesting than pure Paragon/pure Renegade characters

 

So you want to force people who don't RP to RP?

 

That will not turn out good.

[Vazgen]

So you want to force people who don't RP to RP?

 

That will not turn out good.

Well, Mass Effect is called a role playing game for a reason. And then they can always have Action mode for those people. The way I see it, if you care about choosing replies through dialogue wheel, you should pay more attention to it. If you not - the Action mode is what you seek.

[Ieldra]

I definitely don't think that's a minority view - I believe generally the consensus is ME3 had the best overall gameplay, just that that's not how I feel about it. I traditionally like slower gameplay in story games and save the fast gameplay for quick action multiplayer. As for the Mako, when people ask me what my favourite moment in Mass Effect is, it was the first time I was driving the Mako across some ice planet with a snow storm whipping from right to left on the screen and a hazy sun barely visible through it. If anything captured the freedom I felt from Mass Effect 1 - it was that moment.... plus the lols at the Mako rolling down a hill because I missed the easy way up.

I agree with this. None of the sequels captured that feeling of a big galaxy with endless worlds you could explore, and the Mako explorations were a significant contribution. 

[Farangbaa]

Well, Mass Effect is called a role playing game for a reason. And then they can always have Action mode for those people. The way I see it, if you care about choosing replies through dialogue wheel, you should pay more attention to it. If you not - the Action mode is what you seek.

 

This changes absolutely nothing. The people that RP read closely what it says already, the people that don't... do not.

 

You're trying to force something on people that doesn't need to be forced to work.

[Vazgen]

This changes absolutely nothing. The people that RP read closely what it says already, the people that don't... do not.

 

You're trying to force something on people that doesn't need to be forced to work.

Nothing is forced here. You want to RP - pay close attention as you did already. You don't want it - pick the Action mode and play the game without bothering about dialogue choices. 

[Farangbaa]

Nothing is forced here. You want to RP - pay close attention as you did already. You don't want it - pick the Action mode and play the game without bothering about dialogue choices. 

 

Yes you do. You're forcing people to pick the 'action' mode while there's no reason to do so.

 

You just want to feel special for paying attention.

[von uber]

I think there is a problem with the 'choose top right to win' mentality.

[Ieldra]

I think there is a problem with the 'choose top right to win' mentality.

Sure, but players can hardly be blamed for doing it if the game is designed that way. Instead of mixing up the placement of the lines, why not make the outcomes more variable and less one-sided? Having the paragon line appearing in random places changes nothing at all, except for those who don't read the paraphrases, and I'm indifferent to how these people play.

[Barquiel]

So while I definitely feel that Mass Effect 3 missed the mark and that spark of the previous games, the biggest sin I felt is they took our Shepard away from us.

I think that really depends on how you want to roleplay your Shepard. For example, ME2 was the worst for my Shepard. No matter how hard I tried, I felt like she was nothing but an emotionless hollow shell with a gun throughout most of the core game and the Cerberus railroading didn't help either.

But I really didn't have many problems with Shepard in ME3 (her Earth bias was irritating, that's all). Player who want a stoic or a pro-Cerberus/anti-alliance Shepard were obviously much more happy with ME2.

[Vazgen]

Yes you do. You're forcing people to pick the 'action' mode while there's no reason to do so.

Once again, I don't force anyone. For a player who doesn't care about dialogue choices Action mode is the logical choice (with the current system as well)

 

You just want to feel special for paying attention.

I would try to explain how erroneous and illogical is that statement but it would be a waste of time since you are clearly biased and opinionated

[Farangbaa]

I think there is a problem with the 'choose top right to win' mentality.

 

I have no idea where this comes from. Where is there an instance in the game where going renegade equals losing?

 

Or are we talking a 'no persuasion' game here?

[Farangbaa]

Once again, I don't force anyone. For a player who doesn't care about dialogue choices Action mode is the logical choice (with the current system as well)

Your system adds nothing. Except that you have to read paraphrases better now, only to find out Shepard says something completely different.

"I couldn't hold back" --> "And that's how it's done kids"
 

I would try to explain how erroneous and illogical is that statement but it would be a waste of time since you are clearly biased and opinionated

Welcome to the internet.

Btw, not agreeing with you does not equal being biased.

[Vazgen]

Your system adds nothing.

My system adds more depth and attachment to the character, because you put more thought into each dialogue option

 

I have no idea where this comes from. Where is there an instance in the game where going renegade equals losing? 

Try romancing someone with only renegade choices

 

Welcome to the internet.

Btw, not agreeing with you does not equal being biased.  

Not agreeing with me does not, but focusing on me personally, instead of trying to understand the points I bring does

[von uber]

I have no idea where this comes from. Where is there an instance in the game where going renegade equals losing?

 

Or are we talking a 'no persuasion' game here?

 

Generally bottom right leads to more deaths (and for example during war asset collection, you get more assets via paragon responses). If you chose top right, you are pretty much guaranteed everyone surviving and the 'best' outcome.

But yes, the blue/red reposnes generally have the same outcome (the magic power of persuasion).

[Farangbaa]

My system adds more depth and attachment to the character, because you put more thought into each dialogue option

No you don't. You only add more hassle for the people who already read carefully by juggling the lines around on subsequent playthroughs when they generally don't read carefully anymore because they have before.
 

Try romancing someone with only renegade choices

Miranda, Liara.

But really now, who the hell expects to be a general ******* and get the girl? Picking only renegade should not get you a romance. It's as it should be.

[Vazgen]

No you don't. You only add more hassle for the people who already read carefully by juggling the lines around on subsequent playthroughs when they generally don't read carefully anymore because they have before.

I fail to see how someone who reads the lines carefully in one playthrough doesn't do that in the next one. And I'm not talking about constant random shuffling of the options. I'm talking about a fixed system, like it is now, except with paragon options no longer being necessarily on top and renegade options on the bottom.

Miranda, Liara.

But really now, who the hell expects to be a general ******* and get the girl? Picking only renegade should not get you a romance. It's as it should be.

Agreed, but it locks content from you making the top route more "rewarding". Going renegade does not equal losing but it has less benefits than the top options. This is the 'choose top right to win' mentality in my understanding.