124 réponses à ce sujet

[Icinix]

I think that really depends on how you want to roleplay your Shepard. For example, ME2 was the worst for my Shepard. No matter how hard I tried, I felt like she was nothing but an emotionless hollow shell with a gun throughout most of the core game and the Cerberus railroading didn't help either.

But I really didn't have many problems with Shepard in ME3 (her Earth bias was irritating, that's all). Player who want a stoic or a pro-Cerberus/anti-alliance Shepard were obviously much more happy with ME2.

Which is exactly the problem -  ME3 in particular had a very particular preference to how you roleplayed Shepard. If you fit with the BioWares version of Shepard - perfect, if you didn't - there were massive disconnects. While they were certainly present in ME2 - and some milder cases in ME1 - ME3 didn't even seem to try and avoid creating that situation.

[dreamgazer]

Bah. I still want to be a Shepard who wasn't involved in the Alliance, who could choose not to become a Spectre, who didn't have to pick between only Kaidan and Ashley at Virmire, and who wasn't forced to slaughter tens of thousands of people at the end of ME1.

[Iakus]

Bah. I still want to be a Shepard who wasn't involved in the Alliance, who could choose not to become a Spectre, who didn't have to pick between only Kaidan and Ashley at Virmire, and who wasn't forced to slaughter tens of thousands of people at the end of ME1.

Good thing you aren't required to do that last part.

[dreamgazer]

Good thing you aren't required to do that last part.

 

Oh? How many humans do you think were thrown under the bus to save the Ascension and council?

[Iakus]

Oh? How many humans do you think were thrown under the bus to save the Ascension and council?

None.

 

The humans were armed, aware, facing the enemy, and willing to fight. 

 

Unlike, say the synthetics in the Destroy ending, who are shot in the back by thier own ally in an attack that was both totally unexpected and they were completely defenseless against.

[dreamgazer]

None.

 

The humans were armed, aware, facing the enemy, and willing to fight. 

 

Unlike, say the synthetics in the Destroy ending, who are shot in the back by thier own ally in an attack that was both totally unexpected and they were completely defenseless against.

 

Shepard also gives the new order and diverts fighters from the original Sovereign directive, the actual reason they're armed, aware, and facing an enemy. 

 

"You can't sacrifice human lives to save the council." - Ashley.

 

And shall we revisit the geth's feelings about destroying synthetics, and how it pertains to life-preserving blowback instead of being "shot in the back"?

[Iakus]

Funny, I thought they showed up to fight the fleet that's threatening the Citadel.  I mean, what's a "Reaper"?

 

What, you mean "Does this unit have a soul?"

[dreamgazer]

Funny, I thought they showed up to fight the fleet that's threatening the Citadel.  I mean, what's a "Reaper"?

 

What, you mean "Does this unit have a soul?"

 

Fight fleets that threaten the Citadel, not divert and save individual ships. 

 

And no, I'm more referring to benign anthropomorphism and Legion's support of destroying synthetics under dire situations.

[Iakus]

Fight fleets that threaten the Citadel, not divert and save individual ships. 

 

And no, I'm more referring to benign anthropomorphism and Legion's support of destroying synthetics under dire situations.

 

So the geth are just going to hang around and do nothing?

 

Legion advocated (or at least entertained the idea of) killing the Heretics as an act of self-defense.  If the geth were willing to all die "for the greater good" tehy would have let the quarians wipe them out three ceturies ago.  Or a few weeks ago on Rannoch.

[dreamgazer]

So the geth are just going to hang around and do nothing?

 

Legion advocated (or at least entertained the idea of) killing the Heretics as an act of self-defense.  If the geth were willing to all die "for the greater good" tehy would have let the quarians wipe them out three ceturies ago.  Or a few weeks ago on Rannoch.

 

Dogfighting the geth wasn't the new directive.  Diverting specifically to save the council and Ascension was. 

 

And no, the presence of the Reapers as the galaxy's life-extinguishing force makes that a false equivalency about the "greater good". 

[Iakus]

Dogfighting the geth wasn't the new directive.  Diverting specifically to save the council and Ascension was. 

 

And no, the presence of the Reapers as the galaxy's life-extinguishing force makes that a false equivalency about the "greater good". 

 

A directive Hackett could have overridden if he thought it was suicidally stupid.

 

How is Legion not wanting the geth to die hypocricy?

[dreamgazer]

A directive Hackett could have overridden if he thought it was suicidally stupid.

 

How is Legion not wanting the geth to die hypocricy?

 

It's made clear what'll happen when Shepard gives the order: sacrifice.  Suicidal sacrifice.  Even your girl Ashley acknowledges it.

 

Because they're different situations, since the geth dying is unavoidable in permanently eradicating the Reapers. Morning War? Avoidable.  Rannoch? Avoidable. Reaper overload and preservation of galactic life? Unavoidable.

 

Legion might want Shepard to consider the other options, but he's spelled out their position otherwise. And the geth are prone to passing the decisive buck to Shepard. 

[Vazgen]

It's made clear what'll happen when Shepard gives the order: sacrifice.  Suicidal sacrifice.  Even your girl Ashley acknowledges it.

 

Because they're different situations, since the geth dying is unavoidable in permanently eradicating the Reapers. Morning War? Avoidable.  Rannoch? Avoidable. Reaper overload and preservation of galactic life? Unavoidable.

 

Legion might want Shepard to consider the other options, but he's spelled out their position otherwise. And the geth are prone to passing the decisive buck to Shepard. 

You're using metagaming here. Legion has no way of knowing that the geth will be targeted by the Crucible. Both Morning War and Rannoch situations were started by the quarians, geth simply responded. Being stronger they won the first fight and were winning the second. Then Shepard comes and destroys the source of signal that makes the geth stronger effectively making them no match for the quarians. Legion tries to upload the code to bring the geth to the same state they were under the Reaper control, to save them (he may have hidden agenda but it's not shown or spoken in the game). Quarians are my favorite aliens in the series but they have made some very bad decisions along the way.

I agree though, killing thousands is required in ME1 ending. You have to choose between human lives or aliens with the Council. According to war assets, saving the council costs 75 assets while saving the Ascension gives 70 assets. Given that the crew of this dreadnought is near 10000, I assume that about as many humans will be lost in an effort to save the Council.

[Iakus]

It's made clear what'll happen when Shepard gives the order: sacrifice.  Suicidal sacrifice.  Even your girl Ashley acknowledges it.

 

Because they're different situations, since the geth dying is unavoidable in permanently eradicating the Reapers. Morning War? Avoidable.  Rannoch? Avoidable. Reaper overload and preservation of galactic life? Unavoidable.

 

Legion might want Shepard to consider the other options, but he's spelled out their position otherwise. And the geth are prone to passing the decisive buck to Shepard. 

And there is no loss of life in going after Sovereign?

 

The geth will be happy to go home once they're done with the Ascension?  They won't fight to protect it?

 

And you have also noticed the geth will fight to protect themselves.  Just like any other race.

[dreamgazer]

And there is no loss of life in going after Sovereign?

 

The geth will be happy to go home once they're done with the Ascension?  They won't fight to protect it?

 

And you have also noticed the geth will fight to protect themselves.  Just like any other race.

 

It's the difference between an immediate and indirect threat. Sovereign is mandatory. The Ascension is not.

 

I'm not seeing your second point.  The fact remains that you direct forces away from Sovereign towards the Ascension, choosing a secondary objective that demands more loss of human life instead of going directly to the source.

 

Again, I refer to "benign anthropomorphism" and Legion's support of synthetic destruction under dire circumstances, and exterminating the Reapers is the pinnacle of dire.  They'd prefer not to be terminated, but they appreciate the demand to do so.  Revisit the conversation with Legion on the Normandy in ME3 if you've destroyed the heretics (you can pick up on their position in rewriting, too).

 

 

You're using metagaming here.

 

Not really.  I'm extrapolating based on what we know about the geth's ideology towards other similarly-theme situations. 

[Kenshen]

I still like ME3 since I still play it however ME2 is my favorite.  If only I could bring in the combat and weapon choices in 3 to 2 I would be totally set.  For me ME3 got off to a bad start that soured my opinion of it due to the import face bug.  The other is how the game ends, not the 3 choices but before that.  We spend the entire game collecting this army that we barely ever see fighting.  I kept waiting for us to start making decisions on how to use that army much like the SM at the end of ME2 but that never happens.  I should say the EC certainly helps if BW had not come out with that I never would have played ME3 again.  It is what it is but it has made me a lot more cautious when buying a new game and thanks to ME3 and DA2 I will not be in any hurry to get the next dragon age game, which from what I have seen has not impressed me.   

[voteDC]

 

I agree, but for me that illusion is not about whether I make that choice or it's made for me. That illusion is the illusion of being in the world, connecting to those characters, 'feel' the game from the inside of that universe, not as a spectator.

For me, Mass Effect 3 maintained that illusion, it had some of the most emotional moments I've ever experienced in gaming and Zaeed-style dialogues didn't have negative impact on that. I'll say again, maybe it's due to my Shepard being close to Bioware's. 

 

I think you nailed it with that last line. The illusion wasn't lost for you because you had a Shepard close to that of Bioware's.

Many people haven't though and that's the issue where the illusion is getting broken. While obviously the first two games needed to tell a story as well, they still gave the players a greater scope in shaping their Shepard. Mass Effect 3 kind of stopped that and it was as if Bioware wanted everyone to play as THEIR Shepard.

As I mentioned before the failed, and then the fixed but not quite, face imports also helped break the illusion that the previous games had built up.

 

 

 

I don't understand that point about intent when choosing the line. Later in the game that intent completely disappeared for me, it became - top=Paragon, bottom=Renegade, middle=neutral. I rarely checked bottom option since it was usually something that an a**hole would say (at least that short description was written that way). My roleplay became based on Shepard's actual words, not the dialogue options I pick. So, I guess my roleplay became retrospective, it evolved with Shepard's each conversation.

 

Intent is very important when picking the lines. For example am I whispering sweet nothings to Thane in ME2 because Shepard is truly in love with him, or is he just a distraction until I can get jiggy with Kaidan again in ME3. Scenes may play out the same but it is the intent of the player that truly gives them shape.

 

 

 

I completely agree with lack of background impact, but that is the case for all the games in the series. ME3 at least has some mentions of your background, ME2 didn't have any that I can name off the top of my head. ME1 had them the most and it made sense, because at that time Shepard is known as, say, "The Butcher of Torfan" rather than "The savior of the Citadel, Captain of the Normandy". 

 

 

The backgrounds should have been very important in the final game, perhaps more so than at any other time. It would have been nice to see specific missions relating to them. A few examples.

Why was a Colonist not even slightly concerned about about their home world. Why not a rescue mission to Mindoir to save some old friends.

Torfan is being used by the Reapers, so Shepard has to go in again. Perfect opportunity to have some flashback play to the original mission.

Have an Earthborn Shepard recruit their old gang as extra troops when on Earth.

As you mentioned in the opening of your post, what you liked was the illusion of being in that world. Surely that would have been strengthened by the game tailoring itself to your Shepard to a small degree?

[Vazgen]

The backgrounds should have been very important in the final game, perhaps more so than at any other time. It would have been nice to see specific missions relating to them. A few examples.

Why was a Colonist not even slightly concerned about about their home world. Why not a rescue mission to Mindoir to save some old friends.

Torfan is being used by the Reapers, so Shepard has to go in again. Perfect opportunity to have some flashback play to the original mission.

Have an Earthborn Shepard recruit their old gang as extra troops when on Earth.

I think backgrounds should be the least mentioned in the final game. Who cares if the Shepard is from Mindoir or butchered his squad on Torfan? It isn't important in the large scale of things. Reapers attack and the one who rallies the races is the Commander Shepard, first human Spectre, captain of the Normandy, saviour of the Citadel. That's what's important, not Shepard losing his family on Mindoir or getting his squad killed on Torfan many years ago. Missions like that would've been only important to Shepard, be personal and disconnected with the main plot.

Such missions could fit in ME2, when there is less rush and you can spend ages scanning planets.

 

As you mentioned in the opening of your post, what you liked was the illusion of being in that world. Surely that would have been strengthened by the game tailoring itself to your Shepard to a small degree? 

I would not want game being tailored to the protagonist. That's one of the things that are good about ME3 - despite spearheading the fight against the Reapers you are still just a small detail in the huge war machine. Your indifference can impact you negatively, unlike ME1 and (to a lesser extent) 2.

 

Intent is very important when picking the lines. For example am I whispering sweet nothings to Thane in ME2 because Shepard is truly in love with him, or is he just a distraction until I can get jiggy with Kaidan again in ME3. Scenes may play out the same but it is the intent of the player that truly gives them shape. 

I agree, but you don't put that intent into a paraphrase, you put it into the actual spoken line.

 

As I mentioned before the failed, and then the fixed but not quite, face imports also helped break the illusion that the previous games had built up. 

It was just a minor annoyance to me, I had the face code saved

[Iakus]

It's the difference between an immediate and indirect threat. Sovereign is mandatory. The Ascension is not.

 

I'm not seeing your second point.  The fact remains that you direct forces away from Sovereign towards the Ascension, choosing a secondary objective that demands more loss of human life instead of going directly to the source.

 

Again, I refer to "benign anthropomorphism" and Legion's support of synthetic destruction under dire circumstances, and exterminating the Reapers is the pinnacle of dire.  They'd prefer not to be terminated, but they appreciate the demand to do so.  Revisit the conversation with Legion on the Normandy in ME3 if you've destroyed the heretics (you can pick up on their position in rewriting, too).

 

The geth and Sovereign are both mandatory.  The question is who do you focus on first.

 

And again, the geth want to live.  Not as an abstract concept, but as a reflex common to all life.  They will fight to survive.  They're risk non-functional status to stop the Old Machines, but that is on an individual basis.  Just as soldiers are willing to lay down their lives to protect others.  

 

Individual soldiers willing to die for their beliefs is very different from the death of an entire species.  An entire unsuspecting species  

[dreamgazer]

The geth and Sovereign are both mandatory.  The question is who do you focus on first.

 

And again, the geth want to live.  Not as an abstract concept, but as a reflex common to all life.  They will fight to survive.  They're risk non-functional status to stop the Old Machines, but that is on an individual basis.  Just as soldiers are willing to lay down their lives to protect others.  

 

Individual soldiers willing to die for their beliefs is very different from the death of an entire species.  An entire unsuspecting species  

 

The geth can be taken care of at any point after Sovereign's stopped.  If Sovereign succeeds, everyone's screwed.  The Ascension is secondary, and you throw humans under the bus to preserve it. 

 

The geth are also understanding of the concept of destruction of synthetics under these circumstances, especially since it jibes with their beliefs of stopping the Old Machines.  "It is ... logical".  

[Vazgen]

The geth can be taken care of at any point after Sovereign's stopped.  If Sovereign succeeds, everyone's screwed.  The Ascension is secondary, and you throw humans under the bus to preserve it. 

 

The geth are also understanding of the concept of destruction of synthetics under these circumstances, especially since it jibes with their beliefs of stopping the Old Machines.  "It is ... logical".  

I'd like to point out that the fleet does not immediately go after Sovereign if you refuse to help the Ascension. They fly around waiting for the Citadel arms to open. If you choose to save the Council, the fleet takes care of the geth and saves the Ascension just in time for the arms to open.

[themikefest]

I would place the decision on Hackett to save the council or not. When Shepard says to save/kill the council. Hackett would know the situation since he can see the battle first hand whereas Shepard can't. He would be able to determine if he has enough forces to save the council and deal with Sovereign. He has the element of surprise on the Geth. So he should be able to take them out fairly easily.

 

 

The other thing is when your up against an enemy, you always attack that will lead to the smallest amount of losses as possible. It was stupid of him to attack Sovereign from the front when its backside was vulnerable. Sovereign was hooked to the tower. Had Hackett done that, the losses would be minimal. But no, he wanted the "take down that monster, no matter the cost" crap dialogue.

[Iakus]

The geth can be taken care of at any point after Sovereign's stopped.  If Sovereign succeeds, everyone's screwed.  The Ascension is secondary, and you throw humans under the bus to preserve it. 

 

The geth are also understanding of the concept of destruction of synthetics under these circumstances, especially since it jibes with their beliefs of stopping the Old Machines.  "It is ... logical".  

 

As pointed out, the choice is hang back, or jump in while the arms are still opening.

 

As for the geth, well, they're willing to side with the Reapers in exchange for not being exterminated by the quarians.