3344 réponses à ce sujet

[Raikas]

While arguments can be made to boil down any character into a trope-- often to the point of purposefully blurring out any characteristics that don't match the trope in order to do so-- I do understand that tropes can potentially be harmful in aggregate, particularly to minorities.

 

My point was that the opposite argument about Vivienne being present only for fetishization purposes could be made, were she a LI, so suggesting that her not being a LI is also somehow problematic very much presents a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation... aside from rather pointedly ignoring Josephine, in a sense of "but I wanted Vivienne more" kind of way. Which, as I said, I get. Vivienne is awesome. But let's not pretend that people wouldn't make arguments to one end or another regardless.

 

Insofar as to whether Vivienne specifically matches any tropes, "Strong Independent Black Woman" or otherwise, I suggest playing the game and seeing for yourself before assuming that what you fear might be is what she actually is, or that a romance would be required to "humanize" her as a result.

 

Does the bolded mean that Josephine meant to read as black?   I know a fair number of posters (myself included) have been reading Josephine as brown*, so from that perspective I don't think people are ignoring her as much as they're assuming that she's representing a very different ethnicity that tends to get saddled with a very different set of stereotypes.

 

 

*ETA: I'm using "brown" in the Canadian sense, meaning South Asian, but I've heard people who have suggested other non-white/non-black analogous ethnic backgrounds as well.

[nightscrawl]

People are already complaining in this thread (and elsewhere on the internet) that straight males are disadvantaged by having two options. Can you imagine the incandescent rage if gay players had four? The media headlines? The internet drama? The petitions? The sneering and screaming on 4chan and reddit and whatever other places are inhabited by "gamers"?

 

Actually, the devs and EA have shown that they are willing to give the finger to those people. Of course, that doesn't diminish the accuracy of your prediction which I think is spot on for how the game would be seen and talked about.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the concern that devs, marketing, and executives would have over it, but I do disagree that it is the primary reason for not having such options. One of the reasons sure, but not the primary reason.

[daveliam]

It's unfortunate you're disappointed. I'm not sure, however, that holding out that us providing more gay options than any other as the only means of "pushing the envelope" is a very fair thing to do. The LGBT audience is still pretty small--you must recognize that, yes? I am a gay man, and I recognize that. If BioWare was overly worried about the reaction of the larger audience, we wouldn't be providing content aimed exclusively at gay players at all... but we do, and it's not insignificant. More than that, gay content (meaning characters and story) is present in more places than simply player romances. I'm uncertain how that could be disappointing, unless you're looking for us to single-handedly make up for a lack of such content everywhere else in the industry?

 

If you are, that seems like an expectation that's setting yourself up for disappointment. I hope that our efforts ultimately please you, regardless.

 

Well I certainly appreciate that you took the time to reply to me personally.  Yes, I believe that I set myself up to be disappointed despite warning others about this very trap.  I don't want or expect Bioware to provide more options for gay and lesbian players than straight players on the regular.  That would be equally unfair to straight players.  But I was holding out hope that one day soon there would a game where the "bonus" content fell in our laps for once. 

Again, I appreciate the work that Bioware does and I appreciate that you and the other devs take the time to come onto the boards and clarify things for us.  It's one the things that makes BSN a pretty special place.

[Lady Nuggins]

From a narrative point of view I completely agree - it could totally happen. It could've happened in Inquisition if they'd said Blackwall and Solas were both gay or bisexual, for whatever reason.

 

I think it is a huge leap, though, in terms of how the game would be perceived externally, and how that decision would even happen internally. Without kicking up a hornet's nest, more romances for straight women are not anywhere near as controversial as extra male or female same-sex romances.  

 

People are already complaining in this thread (and elsewhere on the internet) that straight males are disadvantaged by having two options. Can you imagine the incandescent rage if gay players had four? The media headlines? The internet drama? The petitions? The sneering and screaming on 4chan and reddit and whatever other places are inhabited by "gamers"?

 

That stuff is terrifying for a studio, its PR team, and probably the executives. Who would approve that at EA? Who in the company could honestly sit down with Andrew Wilson or whichever underling handles DA:I and make a case for putting in more gay options than straight ones?

 

Maybe I'm too cynical, but with AAA's audience the way it is I don't see this happening in a million years. The studio and publisher are far, far too risk-averse to even consider the idea that the majority of romantic content could go to LGB players. It's the sort of thing that wouldn't even get proposed in a meeting, I suspect - to be honest.

 

Again, though, that's something that I would have expected to happen with women getting more than men.  Especially given the current climate in the gaming world.  And yes, there is definitely some grumbling going on, but it's not nearly the PR nightmare that it could have been.  Maybe that's still to come, I don't know. But I disagree with the idea that showing more gay content is much more risky than showing more female content.  Both are considered risky to the big game studios.  

 

Umm, no. These examples aren't showing bisexual women. These examples are showing female characters who identify as homosexual, yet sleep with men. As I pointed out earlier, the idea that they might actually be bisexual is rarely discussed, and if it is it's dismissed.

All the same, bad lesbian representation does not equal bisexual representation. Nor does bisexual representation equal lesbian representation. Bisexuality is its own thing, and deserves its own representation. (Which is also severely lacking)

 

Lord, this.  The reluctance to use the word "bisexual" is a symptom of biphobia.  Lesbians deserve their own representation that doesn't include sleeping with men, and bisexuals deserve their own representation that actually calls them what they are.

[TheTurtle]

Does the bolded mean that Josephine meant to read as black?   I know a fair number of posters (myself included) have been reading Josephine as brown, so from that perspective I don't think people are ignoring her as much as they're assuming that she's representing a very different ethnicity that tends to get saddled with a very different set of stereotypes.

Yeah she looks like a number of South Asian people I know specifically Indian peoples. 

[dan109]

The number of people who care about the hypothetical years of triangles is pretty small. 

 

By that logic the entire game is just colored pixels flashing on screen. Why waste hours staring at them?

 

They aren't ignoring anyone. And as for determining how much of BioWare's audience is what you suggest is ridiculously subjective, as the last time I checked, BioWare doesn't collect statistics about who their players are. Just the characters produced by them.

 

One could probably ballpark it.

[daveliam]

 

 

 

To be honest I just find quoting your posts as excellent places to jump into discussions because they usually neatly sum up the general talk going on, they are rarely directed at you specifically, just good points to jump in. 

 

I also like discussing things with you because you're good at debating things, and bring up good points. Sorry if I went a overboard...

 

As I said, it's not you specifically, I just feel like... the BSN is just too depressive and toxic...

 

I guess I should have just worked that one out a long time ago.

 

 

 

To be honest, this post actually takes a ton of the crappy feelings that I'm feeling right now and gets rid of them.  I appreciate that you clarified this.  I will certainly view your posts as directed at the larger forum in the future and not directed at me personally.

 

I also appreciate a good debate, but I think I've saturated myself the last few days and I'm probably a little overly sensitive right now for some reason.  I think that tonight is a good night to stay in, lock my doors, turn off my phone and computer, and log in some serious hours playing video games (instead of talking about them)!

[BobZilla84]

I never was interested to romance Cass but now that i know that Vivienne isn´t romancable, im thinking of it, she maybe fits with my qunari/warrior.

Josephine isn´t really an Option, i prefer taking my LI in the party.

This is my main complaint as well I enjoy taking my LI everywhere with me but Josephine cant only Cassandra can which is why I was really dissapointed about Vivienne not being a LI that and us not having a Female Mage LI at all.

[AresKeith]

I just don't understand this breakdown. Out of 8 romances, only 2 are available to straight men, and both of them look up there in years. So that's 25% of the options are straight* women, 0% young.

Out of curiousity, Bioware, what percentage of your audience would you say is straight men that would be attracted to young, as opposed to old, women?

There's entitlement, and then there's just absolutely ignoring the largest chunk of your audience.

 

Because the entire cast is pretty much in their 30s to late 40s 

[Br3admax]

By that logic the entire game is just colored pixels flashing on screen. Why waste hours staring at them?

I'm not sure what logic you saw, but the point is no one cares about the age, within reason, of fake people. Except for Alistar and Merrill, most of the LIs were well older in the previous games. No one complained. 

[Lieutenant Kurin]

If by showing that "lesbian" character is only acceptable if it confirms homophobic myths that are also pandering to men, that "lesbians just need D" and it takes "a right man" to "turn" them I strenghten your point that lesbians (who are being turned by men) are more accepted than gay men, then so be it. But somehow still it's gay men that according to GLAAD have bigger representation than lesbians...

 

And BTW, you're speaking to someone who suffered directly from those homophobic myths about lesbian sexuality that are promoted by the media, which you apparently don't consider as a problem - I'm corrective rape survivor.

 

Personally, I'm pretty sure that, as long as you aren't the norm, western media, on the whole, treats you the same. With horrendous, incorrect and vastly overdone stereotypes. There might be more gay men in media, but that doesn't equal better representation. The few who do it in any light other than comedic or insulting are such a low number that arguing who's got it worse is pointless. And this comes from a guy whose first representation as a brown gay male is Dorian.

 

It sounds like the people behind GLAAD would take into account more factors than the average consumer when viewing sexuality in the media, but that's just my opinion... I also never said that I didn't think it was a problem.  I said that it probably doesn't factor into the mindset of people watching a movie or playing a game.  Two women kissing does not evoke the same emotions in the vast majority of people that two men kissing would, and that's the bottom line for me.  Therefore, a lesbian protagonist in "The Last of Us" (who again, was not revealed to be a lesbian until long after the game's amazing commercial success) is not the same as a gay protagonist in terms of media response and public perception.

 

But again, just my opinions on the matter... I hope I'm not coming across as dismissive, I'm just looking at the evidence and trying to figure out what conclusion most people would come to.  Keep in mind that most people do not think this much about sexuality... it's far more simplistic to the average person.  That's all I'm trying to say.

The vast majority of heteronormative culture seems to think that two females kissing are either titillating or wrong. As opposed to two males who are either 'an embarrassing dare' or wrong. It's all just bad. As for the Last of Us, Ellie, as you mentioned, was revealed to be into women long after the game had reached critical and financial success, and people still rebelled against the idea. She's definitely good representation over all, but proof that lesbians have it any better in media, she is not.

[I SOLD MY SOUL TO BIOWARE]

Because the entire cast is pretty much in their 30s to late 40s 

 

Are the youngins acting like that's 'old' again? :S

[shedevil3001]

oh gawd i hope 30 to 40 isn't classed as old, i'm doomed best go buy my zimmerframe

[Sporothrix]

It sounds like the people behind GLAAD would take into account more factors than the average consumer when viewing sexuality in the media, but that's just my opinion... I also never said that I didn't think it was a problem.  I said that it probably doesn't factor into the mindset of people watching a movie or playing a game.  Two women kissing does not evoke the same emotions in the vast majority of people that two men kissing would, and that's the bottom line for me.  Therefore, a lesbian protagonist in "The Last of Us" (who again, was not revealed to be a lesbian until long after the game's amazing commercial success) is not the same as a gay protagonist in terms of media response and public perception.

 

But again, just my opinions on the matter... I hope I'm not coming across as dismissive, I'm just looking at the evidence and trying to figure out what conclusion most people would come to.  Keep in mind that most people do not think this much about sexuality... it's far more simplistic to the average person.  That's all I'm trying to say.

So it only says that the nature of homophobia that affects gay men and gay women is largely different. That's why gay male characters are usually celibate though their sexuality is treated seriously, and while lesbians can make out because that turns majority of male audience (which is usually considered as the target audience) on, ultimately they have to be sexually accessible for men for that very reason as well.

 

And speaking of The Last of Us, it also had important gay male NPC in the main game.

[dan109]

I'm not sure what logic you saw, but the point is no one cares about the age, within reason, of fake people. Except for Alistar and Merrill, most of the LIs were well older in the previous games. No one complained. 

 

What does them being "fake" have to do with anything? The entire game is "fake" if you want to use the word. Either you suspend your disbelief enough to buy into it and perceive the characters as real or you don't. If you don't then why would you care about anyone or anything in the game at all?

[Grand Admiral Cheesecake]

You wrote Zevran? (Tips hat)

 

He still gets points for Viconia.

 

Hmmmmmm

[Lieutenant Kurin]

By that logic the entire game is just colored pixels flashing on screen. Why waste hours staring at them?

 

 

One could probably ballpark it.

Which would prove exactly nothing and be useless to debate with. Wanna prove that BioWare failed their major demographic, count em up, and tell me how many of those actually believe the lack of 'young women LIs' to be an insult to them.

[Br3admax]

What does them being "fake" have to do with anything? The entire game is "fake" if you want to use the word. Either you suspend your disbelief enough to buy into it and perceive the characters as real or you don't. If you don't then why would you care about anyone or anything in the game at all?

I'm glad you ignored the rest of it and jumped on that one word. Did you not know how old they were before? 

[AresKeith]

Are the youngins acting like that's 'old' again? :S

 

Young male privilege?  

[dan109]

oh gawd i hope 30 to 40 isn't classed as old, i'm doomed best go buy my zimmerframe

 

Lol I'm actually pretty close to 30 myself, so I have no problem with the age range of the general cast, it just seems odd that out of 8 romance options there's not a single heterosexual 20 something woman. That's the type that has the broadest appeal by far, that's why you see them in just about every ad, commercial, etc. I can understand not wanting all 8 characters to be like that, but why wouldn't you include at least one?

[Lieutenant Kurin]

So it only says that the nature of homophobia that affects gay men and gay women is largely different. That's why gay male characters are usually celibate though their sexuality is treated seriously, and while lesbians can make out because that turns majority of male audience (which is usually considered as the target audience) on, ultimately they have to be sexually accessible for men for that very reason as well.

 

And speaking of The Last of Us, it also had important gay male NPC in the main game.

I would argue that being celibate is hardly a serious treatment of sexuality. It seems to also have been done to not threaten the 'straight male audience'. That and making all gays effeminate to protect 'straight male masculinity'. Whether there is, or is not, enough straight males watching TV and caring to allow for such behaviour changes with time and location.

[AresKeith]

Lol I'm actually pretty close to 30 myself, so I have no problem with the age range of the general cast, it just seems odd that out of 8 romance options there's not a single heterosexual 20 something woman. That's the type that has the broadest appeal by far, that's why you see them in just about every ad, commercial, etc. I can understand not wanting all 8 characters to be like that, but why wouldn't you include at least one?

 

Because the setting they want has the characters in their early 30s to late 40s

 

Though I think Sera could be late 20s

[Ianamus]

To be honest, this post actually takes a ton of the crappy feelings that I'm feeling right now and gets rid of them.  I appreciate that you clarified this.  I will certainly view your posts as directed at the larger forum in the future and not directed at me personally.

 

I also appreciate a good debate, but I think I've saturated myself the last few days and I'm probably a little overly sensitive right now for some reason.  I think that tonight is a good night to stay in, lock my doors, turn off my phone and computer, and log in some serious hours playing video games (instead of talking about them)!

 

Well, I'm pleased it made you feel better. Tone isn't easy to convey through text, but I only ever mean well! So I'm sorry if I came across as too antagonistic. I honesty really like you and all the other posters here. I don't want to upset anyone, just debate. 

[ElitePinecone]

One of the reasons sure, but not the primary reason.

Yeah, I suspect it just involves simple demographics, too. That came up in another romance thread a while ago, and as harsh as it might seem I think it is really important for gay and lesbian players to understand that we surely are a small minority of the entire player base.

If nothing else I think it might lessen the sense of disappointment, if people really were expecting things like a majority of the romance options.

My point about the reaction of the publisher or executives was more that I feel like it would never even occur to people to consider putting in loads of LGBT content, because the underlying assumption is always going to be that it's a niche thing in the AAA space.

Not a case of being denied, just... never even thought about because the proposition is self-evidently conflicting with their audience breakdown. Since I don't see LGBT players becoming a majority in the AAA space any time soon, I don't really think it could change, either.

I'm not saying the situation is especially fun as someone who would always appreciate more m/m content, but I think we should be realistic and clearheaded.

[daveliam]

Lol I'm actually pretty close to 30 myself, so I have no problem with the age range of the general cast, it just seems odd that out of 8 romance options there's not a single heterosexual 20 something woman. That's the type that has the broadest appeal by far, that's why you see them in just about every ad, commercial, etc. I can understand not wanting all 8 characters to be like that, but why wouldn't you include at least one?

Because the characters aren't created to BE love interests. They are created to be characters in the story, which in this case, had them be older (yuck that I have to classify Josephine as "older") characters. So if the cast of characters were all older, of course the LIs, who come from that cast, will be older as well.