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[Ieldra]

I quite frequently play Bioware games as a Lesbian, and I would guess I am not alone... admittedly I personally don't like romancing the gender I am not attracted to in real life but I'm sure many are happy to.  So the number of romance options should not necessarily be connected to the size of the community.

Assuming that people comfortable with playing different genders are about equally distributed among orientations, the numbers don't change.

 

As I see it, and considering the total number of possibilities, it's important that everyone has a choice (i.e. more than one option). Beyond that, more representation is a luxury and none of the complaints by any one of the groups has merit. Also, I think character writing and design should not be dominated by representation issues but by storytelling issues. We're lucky that in this regard, the traits in question are often irrelevant to the story. But not always, and that's where imbalances are inevitable. I think that is as it should be.

 

Edit:

While I'm at it, writers have preferences too, and characters often acquire their own life in a writer's mind. If I asked a writer "Can you make X gay?" and the answer was either "I wouldn't know how to start writing a gay character" or "Maybe I could, but there's one problem: he isn't gay." I'd find that absolutely acceptable. Written characters are complete packages rather than collections traits.

[Ianamus]

Nobody "deserves" anything.

 

These are video game romances, not basic human rights. 

[Lady Nuggins]

 

Yes, it actually would. Because gays are not the majority in society. Equal representation, for a minority, is a privilege, and were the numbers not so low that the absolute numbers matter more, I would not support it. 2 and 2 LIs, that's fine. 20 and 20, I'd feel gays were privileged. (and btw, equal rights and equal representation are very different things. As I see it, you can rightfully demand the former, but not the latter).

 

Why would it actually matter to you if "gays" (is it so hard to type out gay people?) got equal numbers?  If it were 20 and 20, you would still have twenty straight options.  Why would you support taking away options from other people just because there are fewer of them in the world?  

 

It's strange to me that people bring up statistics in matters like why one group shouldn't get more representation, but not in issues like why other groups should get more.  For example, statistically, there should be more racial minorities in our party.  

[Sporothrix]

They didn't say that the situation was the same for those groups. They said that the complaints about Sera/Cassandra being straight/gay were the same. I've seen men arguing about how Sera should be bi, lesbians arguing about how Cass should be bi, straight gals arguing about how Dorian should be bi and gay guys arguing about how Solas/Blackwall/Cullen should be bi. It's more or less the same arguments; "I wanted him/her because I find that character attractive", "They should have made that character bi to ensure equal options" and of course "OMG HOW CAN YOU PANDER TO THAT GROUP, U DUN FKD IT UP". 

 

That's untrue, Calder, and partially SnakeCode since he agreed with his stance, was not referring merely to the issue of wanting particular NPC instead of another one, but to situation of gay gamers in general, even accusing me of prejudice toward straight men.

 

Now, I initially referred to SnakeCode's post which was only using that Cassandra argument, but that was because I thought that it's in fact about much larger issue. And it seems I was right.

[phantomrachie]

This might have been said before but I wasn't able to see this point on the previous pages. Though I will admit I did skim read some of the pages

 

You are not losing out on a romance, BioWare has 8 romances and you the player choose to limit yourself based on who you want to play your Inquisitor.

 

When I first saw Dorian, I was all like 'hells yeah' I'm going to romance him and then it was revealed that he was gay, at that stage I had two choices, I could either kick and scream about it or say to myself 'guess I have to roll a gay male Inquisitor now'

 

I choose the later. After my first through playthroughs as a female Inquisitor, I'm going to roll a male just for Dorian. 

 

Sometimes I think that one of the side effects of most protagonists being male and most in game romances being between a man & a woman, is that straight male gamers never have to play a character that is outside of their comfort zone.

 

They never have to play a woman or a gay character if they don't want to so they never consider it an option.

 

For the rest of us, we had to learn to play a character that in no way represented us, or just not play games.

[Ynqve]

That's untrue, Calder, and partially SnakeCode since he agreed with his stance, was not referring merely to the issue of wanting particular NPC instead of wanting another one, but to situation of gay gamers in general, even accusing me of prejudice toward straight men.

 

Now, I initially referred to SnakeCode's post which was only using that Cassandra argument, but that was because I thought that it's in fact about much larger issue. And it seems I was right.

 

Honestly I think you're both overreacting. The thing about straight men was a stupid thing to say, but I think you misinterpreted them a bit. And SnakeCode did clarify and told you that he didn't agree with that particular line. 

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is this: Let's all calm down and sing "We shall overcome" together. 

[SnakeCode]

 

 

 

Why would it actually matter to you if "gays" (is it so hard to type out gay people?) got equal numbers?  If it were 20 and 20, you would still have twenty straight options.  Why would you support taking away options from other people just because there are fewer of them in the world?  

 

It's strange to me that people bring up statistics in matters like why one group shouldn't get more representation, but not in issues like why other groups should get more.  For example, statistically, there should be more racial minorities in our party.  

 

Statistics shouldn't matter in a videogame's made up world. The creators could decide that 70% of any given population is gay, and it wouldn't matter because it isn't real life. Statistics don't (and shouldn't) apply.

 

That argument does go both ways though, if a games company decided to go a more realistic approach, and make only one companion gay, it still shouldn't be a huge issue because it's their world. Their creation.

 

It does become entitlement when people start saying "We deserve to be represented equally with x, y and z!" It's a made up world with made up characters that can be anything the creator wanted them to be. We should be able to argue or complain if we don't like what's been done, but we are customers, not patrons. And as such should not be able to demand what the devs do with their game.

[LilithMB]

You forgot that this would be one video game, not distribution of gay characters in video games in general. So having that in mind, it would be only fair if few percents of games overall had gay protagonists yet it isn't so. And there's also issue of audience, as the existence of gay catered products comes from the fact that there are people who are willing to buy it. The more Bioware gives gay people exposure, the more likely they are going to buy their products, especially since there is not much competition.

What more do you want from BioWare though? Your protagonists CAN be gay. Before the extra romances everything was "equal" 2 LI each gender and orientation. Two gay companions, two Bi, two straight.

We  know for a fact that companions are not the only gay/bi characters in Thedas. In fact powerful gay characters and not "stereotypes" at all. Celene for one and apparently The Divine?  The reason Solas is straight is because thats how Patrick saw him and not some sort of slight to gay/bi men or because they are "pandering" to straight females. No.

Its Patricks character his brain child, he can do what he wants with him. The reason Cullen is straight is because he's an established character and has always been straight. Full stop, end of. (also save on money/time gating them) The reason Viv is not a LI bi/straight/gay we dont even know, is because i guess we will see. She dont want none of your business? No evil or set back for representation. Its all good. Whats the big deal? I guess i just dont see why the majority of this and other threads are panic and mayhem? BioWare arent going backwards. I for one thank BioWare for taking the time to add the bonus content so it is there to experience for those who DO want it. Yay for them. Why are people getting angry at the writers and animators spending more blood sweat and tears trying hard to give us more? Jeez. Also as ive seen some pages back.  Exclude straight players from DA games to "make up for" every other game made by every other studio?.........No.     Disclaimer:this post isnt entirely aimed at you misoretu

[Hazegurl]

Sometimes I think that one of the side effects of most protagonists being male and most in game romances being between a man & a woman, is that straight male gamers never have to play a character that is outside of their comfort zone.

 

They never have to play a woman or a gay character if they don't want to so they never consider it an option.

 

For the rest of us, we had to learn to play a character that in no way represented us, or just not play games.

Considering the massive amount of men who play women in MMOs when given the option I'm going to have to disagree. Men are willing to play women, sure most have their own reasons for it that isn't all about "social justice" but they are open to playing them. Gay MALE characters, not so much.

 

Overall, I can understand a player not wanting to play a gender or character type they aren't into but I also agree that they are choosing to limit themselves in the end. The same could also be said of everyone who refused to play a man in Mass Effect or DAO.  Bioware never limited FemShep players because they could have rolled Male Shep at any time.

 

@EllieCat, I agree with most of what you're saying, I still think it sucks that straight women characters once again get bonus romantic content and this time it's a double bonus. I can understand giving them Cullen but sir Beefcakes??? Bad form.

[Calders]

That's untrue, Calder, and partially SnakeCode since he agreed with his stance, was not referring merely to the issue of wanting particular NPC instead of another one, but to situation of gay gamers in general, even accusing me of prejudice toward straight men.

 

To be clear my position is that I have absolutely no problem with the numbers of LI for each 'group'.  I am disappointed with the female LI and I do fear that the choices of female LI has been influenced by trying to avoid the 'conventionally' attractive stereotype.  Which I think is one of the more ridiculous criticism that some SJW's make.

I suggested you might be prejudiced against straight men because your posts imply that you think it is OK to disadvantage one group because you believe they have had it better in the past... not sure how equality and revenge can be mixed together but then maybe I misunderstood you (in which case I apologise).

[ElitePinecone]

So now you're trying to pretend the past doesn't matter, and thus, there is no difference in treatment? Even though David Gaider's words suggest that the idea of making the "bonus" LIs anything other than straight, regardless of any "story reasons", was never seriously taken into consideration because gay people having more options than straight people would be so revolutionary that "let's not put the cart before the horse, shall we"?

 

No, it was probably never taken seriously, because the developers don't live on the internet and they have to actually run a business that will make money.

 

I'm sorry if you're disappointed and/or outraged that they aren't giving more options to gay and lesbian players. But people who advocate for same-sex content have to be realistic otherwise we're going to be perpetually disappointed.

 

Like David said earlier in this thread, surely you understand that people who use and want lesbian and gay content are going to be a minority of their audience? I'm a gay player and I understand that.

 

I'm overjoyed that Bioware are providing options at all, because they absolutely didn't have to.

[Lady Nuggins]

Statistics shouldn't matter in a videogame's made up world. The creators could decide that 70% of any given population is gay, and it wouldn't matter because it isn't real life. Statistics don't (and shouldn't) apply.

 

That argument does go both ways though, if a games company decided to go a more realistic approach, and make only one companion gay, it still shouldn't be a huge issue because it's their world. Their creation.

 

It does become entitlement when people start saying "We deserve to be represented equally with x, y and z!" It's a made up world with made up characters that can be anything the creator wanted them to be. We should be able to argue or complain if we don't like what's been done, but we are customers, not patrons. And as such should not be able to demand what the devs do with their game.

 

I agree with you, to a point.  They're here to tell a story, with interesting characters, not fill a bunch of quotas.  

 

But I don't think asking for representation is ever entitlement.  Fans have a right to request things--that's why feedback is allowed and encouraged on these boards.  Feedback and criticism are a healthy part of every single piece of media ever made.  I would only call it "entitlement" when fans become insulting or rude to the devs.

[Ieldra]

 

Why would it actually matter to you if "gays" (is it so hard to type out gay people?) got equal numbers?  If it were 20 and 20, you would still have twenty straight options.  Why would you support taking away options from other people just because there are fewer of them in the world?  

 

It's strange to me that people bring up statistics in matters like why one group shouldn't get more representation, but not in issues like why other groups should get more.  For example, statistically, there should be more racial minorities in our party.  

I wasn't aware that there was a terminology issue here (not a native speaker and apart from that unwilling to bow to PC conventions. If this kind of thing is *generally* considered less than polite, I'll concede the point)

 

Also, your argument about numbers is the same used by the other side: why does it matter to you that you're not the group with the most options since you do have 2 like most other groups? 

 

As for statistics, I could argue statistics for more representation rather than less. The beneficiary would likely be straight males, if I consider the complete gamer population interested in DAI, or straight females, if I consider the population most interested in romance. You don't really want me to do that, do you?

 

The plain fact is that LGBT people *are* a minority and that this legitimately influences media content. Statistics can't be used to argue in your favor once a certain quota is met. Talk about the whole game industry, yeah, there definitely is still a great problem. Talk about DAI, and you've got no legitimate concern.

[ElitePinecone]

While I'm at it, writers have preferences too, and characters often acquire their own life in a writer's mind. If I asked a writer "Can you make X gay?" and the answer was either "I wouldn't know how to start writing a gay character" or "Maybe I could, but there's one problem: he isn't gay." I'd find that absolutely acceptable. Written characters are complete packages rather than collections traits.

 

Also, this.

[SnakeCode]

Considering the massive amount of men who play women in MMOs when given the option I'm going to hae to disagree. Men are willing to play women, sure most have their own reasons for it that isn't all about "social justice" but they are open to playing them. Gay MALE characters, not so much.

 

Overall, I can understand a player not wanting to play a gender or character type they aren't into but I also agree that they are choosing to limit themselves in the end. The same could also be said of everyone who refused to play a man in Mass Effect or DAO.  Bioware never limited FemShep players because they could have rolled Male Shep at any time.

As a straight male gamer, I can say that I have no problem playing as a female or a gay male character (though I will admit I'd rather play a female character when romancing male LI's) I romanced Zevran with a male character, for example. I don't see the point of roleplaying if i'm just going to be an avatar of myself.

 

Heck, I have a friend (also straight, white, male) who always plays as a black female given the choice.

 

Some of my favourite gaming protagonists have been female, Lightning, Samus Aran, Polka, Jodie Holmes, Lara Croft, Faith, Aveline de Grandpre, and those are just from the top of my head. I think most guys don't have a problem playing as a woman. I just think it's natural if there's a choice of gender for your character that most people choose their own. Male or female.

[phantomrachie]

Considering the massive amount of men who play women in MMOs when given the option I'm going to hae to disagree. Men are willing to play women, sure most have their own reasons for it that isn't all about "social justice" but they are open to playing them. Gay MALE characters, not so much.

 

Overall, I can understand a player not wanting to play a gender or character type they aren't into but I also agree that they are choosing to limit themselves in the end. The same could also be said of everyone who refused to play a man in Mass Effect or DAO.  Bioware never limited FemShep players because they could have rolled Male Shep at any time.

 

I'm not sure if the typical male MMO player is a good example of men playing as women, since in my experience its all about the breasts, also these female characters tend to be their alts rather than their main character, but perhaps you have a different experience. 

 

While you may have a point about MMO players, outside of that group and outside of the BSN, it is very rare to find a male gamer who will play as a women, unless the games protagonist is female and even then some people would avoid games with female protagonists because they don't want to play as a women.

 

The situation with femshep in ME3 is slightly different though, it is possible for her to have no LIs in ME3, which I would consider a limitation. And gay players only had one option in DA:I, which again I would consider limiting. 

 

I think as long as BioWare keep giving everyone at least two LIs to choose from, than any other complaints are due to the player limiting themselves rather than BioWare limiting them.

[SnakeCode]

I agree with you, to a point.  They're here to tell a story, with interesting characters, not fill a bunch of quotas.  

 

But I don't think asking for representation is ever entitlement.  Fans have a right to request things--that's why feedback is allowed and encouraged on these boards.  Feedback and criticism are a healthy part of every single piece of media ever made.  I would only call it "entitlement" when fans become insulting or rude to the devs.

Asking for representation isn't I agree. I think asking for the same or more than other groups can certainly become entitlement though.

[Ianamus]

It's not really about representation, though. 

People are asking for equal romance options, not an equal number of gay and straight companions. 

 

In this case it isn't so much the demographics of Thedas that matter, it's the demographics of the playerbase. If < 5% play m/m romances then there is little justification for making more m/m LI's than other ones. 

[phantomrachie]

As a straight male gamer, I can say that I have no problem playing as a female or a gay male character (though I will admit I'd rather play a female character when romancing male LI's) I romanced Zevran with a male character, for example. I don't see the point of roleplaying if i'm just going to be an avatar of myself.

 

Heck, I have a friend (also straight, white, male) who always plays as a black female given the choice.

 

Some of my favourite gaming protagonists have been female, Lightning, Samus Aran, Polka, Jodie Holmes, Lara Croft, Faith, Aveline de Grandpre, and those are just from the top of my head. I think most guys don't have a problem playing as a woman. I just think it's natural if there's a choice of gender for your character that most people choose their own. Male or female.

 

It is refreshing to hear you say this, in my experience this is not the case for most male gamers, but I'm glad that other peoples experiences have lead them to a different conclusion.

 

I can understand preferring to play as your own gender, I prefer to play as a woman if I can but I'd never right off playing a man altogether because it would give me a different role playing experience. In DA:I's case it'll mean I can romance Cassandra and Dorian.

 

I think that people should be more open to role playing characters that are not necessarily avatars of themselves and exploring the many ways to play a character, that includes choosing a different, race, gender or sexaility.

 

If more people were willing to do this, then there would probably be less frustration over the set sexualities and race gating of the LI options in DA:I

[Lady Nuggins]

I wasn't aware that there was a terminology issue here (not a native speaker and apart from that unwilling to bow to PC conventions. If this kind of thing is *generally* considered less than polite, I'll concede the point)

 

Also, your argument about numbers is the same used by the other side: why does it matter to you that you're not the group with the most options since you do have 2 like most other groups? 

 

As for statistics, I could argue statistics for more representation rather than less. The beneficiary would likely be straight males, if I consider the complete gamer population interested in DAI, or straight females, if I consider the population most interested in romance. You don't really want me to do that, do you?

 

The plain fact is that LGBT people *are* a minority and that this legitimately influences media content. Statistics can't be used to argue in your favor once a certain quota is met. Talk about the whole game industry, yeah, there definitely is still a great problem. Talk about DAI, and you've got no legitimate concern.

 

I have only ever heard "gays" used as an insult, so I think you might want to consider using a different word.

 

I have no problems having the same number of options as everybody else.  I actually have never said I mind having 2 options.  I said that I don't understand why you think they should have less than everyone else.

[Ray561]

It's not really about representation, though. 

People are asking for equal romance options, not an equal number of gay and straight companions. 

 

In this case it isn't so much about the demographics of Thedas that matter, it's the demographics of the playerbase. If < 5% play m/m romances then there is little justification for making more m/m LI's than other ones. 

Exactly it's about who is going to use the content no more no less.

[Calders]

If < 5% play m/m romances then there is little justification for making more m/m LI's than other ones. 

 

It would be interesting to know what the stats actually are.  I suspect that you are basically right that m/m romances are the least played even though f/f romances are the least common in real life.  I wonder for example how many women play gay guys compared to the number of men who play lesbian women.  I guess we will never know.

[Ieldra]

I have only ever heard "gays" used as an insult, so I think you might want to consider using a different word.

 

I have no problems having the same number of options as everybody else.  I actually have never said I mind having 2 options.  I said that I don't understand why you think they should have less than everyone else.

All right, I'll keep that in mind.

 

As for statistics, as a rule I am arguing for proportional representation where representation is an issue, because I think that's the most fair type. However, the smaller the system gets, the more minorities are disadvantaged by the absolute numbers, so I'd argue for equal in very small systems (like the set of LIs in DAI) but not in larger ones. 

 

Yet again, however, I am totally fine with imbalances in any direction, as long as everyone has a choice. I think this issue should not be allowed to dominate storytelling and character writing.

 

Generally, I really don't see why anyone would be unhappy with the present situation, except for having a personal preference for a character unavailable to their preferred orientation. That may be a reason to be disappointed, but not a legitimate reason for complaining to Bioware about imbalance.  

[Ianamus]

It would be interesting to know what the stats actually are.  I suspect that you are basically right that m/m romances are the least played even though f/f romances are the least common in real life.  I wonder for example how many women play gay guys compared to the number of men who play lesbian women.  I guess we will never know.

 

I'm sure that the f/f romances are a lot more played than the m/m ones, maybe even more than the female PC/male ones. 

[Lady Nuggins]

It's not really about representation, though. 

People are asking for equal romance options, not an equal number of gay and straight companions. 

 

In this case it isn't so much the demographics of Thedas that matter, it's the demographics of the playerbase. If < 5% play m/m romances then there is little justification for making more m/m LI's than other ones. 

 

It's both.  People appreciate the existence of Dorian and Sera both because they're romance options for gay and lesbian players and because they are gay and lesbian characters.  If it were only about getting options, then gay and lesbian players would have been just as satisfied if they were bisexual.  

 

I, personally, would be really happy to have a non-romanceable companion who was not straight.  

 

And if we're going to bring up the percentage of who plays that content, we can bring it back to the low numbers of how many play rogues or dwarves.  Those options are still included even though very few people take those options.