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[daveliam]

Oh, I just thought of something.  Remember waaaay back when that survey was leaked.  And then everyone thought that the characters were the LI's.  Well, as expected that didn't pan out.  5 out of the 6 of them were the "core" romances and the 6th was an "bonus" romance.  But since it was leaked way before Cullen became an LI, I guess that the speculation that this was an LI survey was incorrect.  Close, but no cigar.

[Ianamus]

I'm not entirely sure why Solas wasn't there. Or Vivienne, for that matter. In fact, considering it was just a generic "rate the appearance of this character" I don't get what the point of it was at all. 

 

Some said it was for marketing, and yet of the first four companions we learnt about only Cassandra was even on the survey. 

 

And Iron Bull was only a written exert as well, thinking about it. Though he changed quite a bit from that, so perhaps there was negative feedback on his bio. Still, I'm not convinced it had anything to do with the LI's at all. 

[devSin]

Interesting that none of the m/m options have been feminine.  I personally am fine with that since I tend to prefer more masculine guys, but I do wonder if there are some players who like feminine men and would like to see that represented in future options.

Of course there are.

That would actually be an interesting discussion to have with David and the writers; I wonder if they would actively avoid such a thing (super-undeniably gay is something that I think could turn off players who profess to only be "tolerant" of homosexuality, and would be hard to do so that it doesn't end up simply a stereotype played most often for laughs).

I have my doubts that such a character could be done effectively, unless there were suddenly a lot more gay people in the story (or it were a gay story).
 

I definitely don't think he's "gross." And I definitely don't equate "gay" with "gross." I hope he's not a stereotype, not because I find a stereotypically gay guy gross or unattractive, but because I find it offensive. EDIT (Especially when Mr. Gay Stereotype is the only representative of gay guys in that game/series/movie/whatever.)

I agree that it can be a problem, but I think you need to wait for appropriate context before deciding whether it is offensive or not.

Dorian could be far more "flamboyant" than we think, but that doesn't necessarily make him an offensive character. How he's presented in the game will determine that (otherwise, there's no room for "a stereotypically gay guy" in anything, and that's a horrible message to send).

I just don't think it's fair to judge so harshly, especially since he's not the first gay character in the DA setting and won't be the last. (And I know you weren't expressing any personal distaste for people who are like that; I know in aggregate it can get tiring to see something only portrayed in one specific way, such that you almost never want to see it even when it is respectful and appropriate.)

Anyway, I do sympathize with you, and I hope the Dorian or Iron Bull romances surprise you or that you at least find a lot to like with everyone's friendship content.

[Ianamus]

 

Of course there are.

That would actually be an interesting discussion for David and the writers. I wonder if they would actively avoid such a thing (super-undeniably gay is something that I think could turn off players who profess to only be "tolerant" of homosexuality, and would be hard to do so that it doesn't end up simply a stereotype played most often for laughs).

I have my doubts that such a character could be done effectively, unless there were suddenly a lot more gay people in the story (or it were a gay story).

 

Well, I don't think it's right to immediately associate femininity in men with "super-undeniably gay".

 

I think the reason we haven't is the same reason all of the female LI's are at least action girls: all of the LI's bar Josephine are combatants, and fighting ability is seen as a more masculine trait. 

 

I could see a more feminine male LI in the vein of, say, Loras from game of thrones. It wouldn't even have to be an option solely available to male protagonists. 

[devSin]

Did you play DA2? Merrill? Isabela? Masculine?

As for femininity in men, the specific target was men who have sex with other men. If he's not gay, he'd likely not be an attractive romance option to gay players. (Though I admit it brings up an interesting point as to how such a straight character would be received.)

Perhaps I shouldn't have taken that shortcut, though I'm not sure using different terms would have negated the association anyway.

[Ianamus]

I'd just call all that as camp as shorthand. I suppose it is feminine, but it's not the only a man can be feminine. I mean, if Merrill was exactly the same but a man I wouldn't really describe that as "flamboyant". More feminine in a shy, gentle and naive kind of way I suppose, but hardly a stereotype of a sexuality.

 

Isabela was a bit of a ladette. I wouldn't describe her as masculine, but not as particularly feminine either. 

[CuriousArtemis]

 

I could see a more feminine male LI in the vein of, say, Loras from game of thrones. It wouldn't even have to be an option solely available to male protagonists. 

 

*blink* But Loras is a knight! Knights represent all the traditionally masculine traits: strong, proud, noble, chivalrous, etc.

 

One scene in the series that bothered me was when Loras was talking to Sansa, and he suddenly got really excited about her gown or clothing or something. It made me facepalm. Like just because he's a gay man he's super into fashion?! And we were supposed to titter at that scene. Grr!!!

[Steelcan]

*blink* But Loras is a knight! Knights represent all the traditionally masculine traits: strong, proud, noble, chivalrous, etc.

 

One scene in the series that bothered me was when Loras was talking to Sansa, and he suddenly got really excited about her gown or clothing or something. It made me facepalm. Like just because he's a gay man he's super into fashion?! And we were supposed to titter at that scene. Grr!!!

Loras doesn't act like a knight in any way, beyond "thinks with his sword"

 

no that wasn't intended to be a euphemism

[zqrahll]

We're up to 5 elven romances and still not a single dwarf.    BOOOOO!!!!!!!!

 

I am glad to find out about Blackwall.   But Solas seems like a waste to me-- a romance that only 1 gender, 1 sexuality, & 1 race can ever see seems like a lot of content to lock away to such a niche audience. 

 

I am very disappointed by the romances, but I am similarly disappointed by the squad.   Like Origins, not enough women in the group, which makes it easy to lead to not enough female LIs.   As a straight male gamer, neither of the straight male romances appeals to me at all.

 

That means my first character will be asexual, unless there are minor romances/flirts like in Origins.   The only romance options that interest me are a gay guy & a straight guy (Dorian & Blackwall) but since only those 2 + Varric really interest me as companions, I come back to the fact that I don't like the squad roster.

 

I would have preferred a straight or bi female dwarf rogue in place of Cole.  That would have made the party more balanced, gotten rid of a character that I have no interest in, and replaced a very niche romance (Solas) with a new romance option that would have appealed to & been open to more people.

[Ianamus]

 

*blink* But Loras is a knight! Knights represent all the traditionally masculine traits: strong, proud, noble, chivalrous, etc.

 

One scene in the series that bothered me was when Loras was talking to Sansa, and he suddenly got really excited about her gown or clothing or something. It made me facepalm. Like just because he's a gay man he's super into fashion?! And we were supposed to titter at that scene. Grr!!!

 

Loras is feminine, knight or not. 

 

And I think you were misinterpreting that scene. We're not supposed to laugh at him, and I don't think that he's even particularly into womens fashion. It was to show how awkward he felt about his engagement to Sanza. The only way he could think to compliment her were her clothes.

[Ravensword]

They didn't say that the situation was the same for those groups. They said that the complaints about Sera/Cassandra being straight/gay were the same. I've seen men arguing about how Sera should be bi, lesbians arguing about how Cass should be bi, straight gals arguing about how Dorian should be bi and gay guys arguing about how Solas/Blackwall/Cullen should be bi. It's more or less the same arguments; "I wanted him/her because I find that character attractive", "They should have made that character bi to ensure equal options" and of course "OMG HOW CAN YOU PANDER TO THAT GROUP, U DUN FKD IT UP".

This is pretty much how it's gonna be from now on for every BW game romance an in cement.

It's both.  People appreciate the existence of Dorian and Sera both because they're romance options for gay and lesbian players and because they are gay and lesbian characters.  If it were only about getting options, then gay and lesbian players would have been just as satisfied if they were bisexual.  
 
I, personally, would be really happy to have a non-romanceable companion who was not straight.
 
-snip-.

That's all well and good, but are you aware of the kvetching over a non-straight companion that's not romanceable? A lot of people would find that unforgivable. The kind of people would would react to this would be the same kind of people who are demanding some weird form of affirmative action in video games.

Tell that to any man with kids that has seen the inside of a divorce court.... this nonsense that straight white males can't be discriminated against is just that... nonsense.
 
Edit: OK I'm talking about UK here.

Ah, yes. straight, white, British men are the most oppressed group in the entire world.

they did the same with Thane, and he was created to be a romance, the whole drell race existed for that

They made him romanceable and gave him a terminal illness. I never really thought about that. I mostly thought that the drell did exist, but simply weren't mentioned in ME1. You are still right that the drell race was created for the sake of Thane.

[Gwydden]

Ah, yes. straight, white, British men are the most oppressed group in the entire world.

I don't see how that statement is relevant to the fact that men can also be discriminated against.

 

Agree with the rest of your post.

[CuriousArtemis]

Ah, yes. straight, white, British men are the most oppressed group in the entire world.

 

Love the sarcasm Also, there's really nothing more attractive* than a straight white male who acknowledges his privilege and is also an advocate for change. Nom nom nom put a ring on it!

 

*warning: slight hyperbole

[Gwydden]

Love the sarcasm Also, there's really nothing more attractive* than a straight white male who acknowledges his privilege and is also an advocate for change. Nom nom nom put a ring on it!

 

*warning: slight hyperbole

Well, I am a straight white man. I am also a Hispanic immigrant/refugee with several minor genetic diseases who lives in a house the size of an attic and below the line of poverty and gets on with life only through lots of government aid.

 

Please tell me more about how privileged I am?

 

And you know, I am privileged in some respects. I am smarter and healthier than the average, as well as ridiculously lucky. And yeah, I am straight and white and male. But I guarantee you, there are lots of women, PoC, and LGBTQ who are better off and more "privileged" than I am.

 

Romances in video games don't change any of that one way or the other. Just sayin'.

[MACharlie1]

As a gay man, the whole privileged argument gets tiresome. Shouldn't we just all be the same without one upping each other?  

[CuriousArtemis]

As a gay man, the whole privileged argument gets tiresome. Shouldn't we just all be the same without one upping each other?  

 

That would be ideal, but unfortunately the world does not work that way. That's why it's called "privilege."

 

As a white person, I'm also the beneficiary of privilege. Most advertisements, most people I see in positions of power, and so on, are white. I'm less likely to get stopped in a high end store and be accused of stealing, for example. I benefit from privilege. 

 

I'm also middle-class. I'm also very well-educated. I'm able-bodied. And so on and so on. All these make me the beneficiary of privilege. I may even be unaware of how easier life is for me than it is for those who subsist on lower incomes, have not had the benefit of good education, or are disabled. That wouldn't make me a bad or evil person, but it would behoove me to be aware of what's happening around me and to try and institute change so that we could all work towards equality.

 

/OT

[Steelcan]

*looks around*

 

Yep still the best thread in a while

[Br3admax]

I wish I had privilege. 

[Steelcan]

I wish I had privilege. 

you go to Clemson

[Ynqve]

As a gay man, the whole privileged argument gets tiresome. Shouldn't we just all be the same without one upping each other?  

 

This! The majority of us want equality. That's not what we got this time with the romances. But I believe that the game as a whole will give us a number of great LGBT characters, you just can't romance all of them.  

 

The devs know that people are disappointed. I agree that we need to continue the fight for equal options, but let's not argue about who deserve extra options and who doesn't. That discussion won't lead to anything good, people will only get angry and defensive. If they're angry and defensive they're less likely to work with us in order to achieve equality. And I for one want everyone to feel welcome to join the fight.

[Br3admax]

you go to Clemson

Don't be daft. I only go here because of all the privilege I lack. Do even grant, son? 

[MACharlie1]

I'll admit as a white male, I'm "privileged". But I will not make apologies for it. 

[AlexiaRevan]

This! The majority of us want equality. That's not what we got this time with the romances. But I believe that the game as a whole will give us a number of great LGBT characters, you just can't romance all of them.  

 

The devs know that people are disappointed. I agree that we need to continue the fight for equal options, but let's not argue about who deserve extra options and who doesn't. That discussion won't lead to anything good, people will only get angry and defensive. If they're angry and defensive they're less likely to work with us in order to achieve equality. And I for one want everyone to feel welcome to join the fight.

Hum....I love your idea . Although , if peoples don't argue (Or try to clear their vision) ...how do you think those who are angry and feel cheated will join in for equality when they don't want it . 

I'm not saying 'Yay let's argue some more and throw around who deserve more or less'.......it just that , well those who are angry and feel cheated . Unless a dialogue is created.......they gonna stay on their position . And while some will fight for equality...those will fight for their own choices (have more choices and so on) . 

Just my input . 

[Ynqve]

Hum....I love your idea . Although , if peoples don't argue (Or try to clear their vision) ...how do you think those who are angry and feel cheated will join in for equality when they don't want it . 

I'm not saying 'Yay let's argue some more and throw around who deserve more or less'.......it just that , well those who are angry and feel cheated . Unless a dialogue is created.......they gonna stay on their position . And while some will fight for equality...those will fight for their own choices (have more choices and so on) . 

Just my input . 

 

Trust me, I want people to voice their concerns. I want them to raise awareness of their situation. I want them to make us who are privileged notice their struggles. But I think it's counterproductive to turn the discussion into "let's argue about who have it worse and bash the ones who're on top". We only solve these issues by working together, and that means getting the straight people on board as well. 

[Ravensword]

I don't see how that statement is relevant to the fact that men can also be discriminated against.
 
Agree with the rest of your post.

I didn't say that men couldn't be discriminated against. It's just that I don't have to deal w/ the indignities of life that come w/ the lack of certain privileges.

I think Louis C.K. says it best:

Love the sarcasm Also, there's really nothing more attractive* than a straight white male who acknowledges his privilege and is also an advocate for change. Nom nom nom put a ring on it!
 
*warning: slight hyperbole

Not gonna lie, in the context of the bullshit that certain other people have to put up w/ about their daily lives, it is awesome having privilege. And the thing is, I don't feel guilty. I know that many people who recognize their privilege feel guilt. It makes no sense.

However, I must say that not feeling guilty does not imply a lack of sympathy. I wouldn't wanna be anything else than what I am, b/c having to deal w/ the little indignities in life would suck, and I don't need that crap.