3344 réponses à ce sujet

[Chari]

It isn't my favorite thing in the world. However, I do think that modding straight characters to be gay is different in some key ways b/c of the social/cultural implications. Real people of color have their skin lightened for magazines and are told that having lighter skin is prettier and better. There are entire companies built around convincing gay people that they 'should' and can be straight, and the idea of corrective rape is still prevalent in many many places. There is no equivalent in the reverse. So if LGBT people or people of color say that mods which perpetuate these concepts in the game upset them, its because those actions are only an extension of real world issues for them.

It doesn't make mods turning white into poc or straight into gay/bi any better
Less common, but still pretty bad

[Ieldra]

It isn't my favorite thing in the world. However, I do think that modding straight characters to be gay is different in some key ways b/c of the social/cultural implications. Real people of color have their skin lightened for magazines and are told that having lighter skin is prettier and better. There are entire companies built around convincing gay people that they 'should' and can be straight, and the idea of corrective rape is still prevalent in many many places. There is no equivalent in the reverse. So if LGBT people or people of color say that mods which perpetuate these concepts in the game upset them, its because those actions are only an extension of real world issues for them.

All right, I can understand that. Still I think people should be careful with fast judgments, such as judging people as racists etc. just because they're using such mods. The spirit in which they're used does matter. I also think that respecting characters' identities ultimately goes both ways. Or several ways, in fact, since characters are complete packages and not just collections of traits.

[Ieldra]

I am very, very happy that my female elven character will get a Solas romance! Cullen sounds like an amazing option, too, though I'd rather he stayed loyal to the female Warden - and he probably will, in my games.

Yep, just as happy about Solas here. About Cullen, I was unaware there was a Warden/Cullen romance, unless you count that infinitesimal hint of him being attracted to the female mage Warden in the mage origin.

[Panda]

Yep, just as happy about Solas here. About Cullen, I was unaware there was a Warden/Cullen romance, unless you count that infinitesimal hint of him being attracted to the female mage Warden in the mage origin.

 

You can flirt with him and he has crush on you if you are female mage. That's pretty much it in canon, however some have headcanons of further romance which is okay. There is Cullen romance mod though in DAO though.

[oceanicsurvivor]

So the hundred of millions of people who tan themselves through comsetics, solarium or just the sun,  trying to make their skin look darker are just a imagination? You know, there are also entire companies build around to make the skin look "less white". (they mentioned solariums or cosmetics like tan accelerators)

 

Yeah, if you really can't understand how thats fundamentally different in our society, I really doubt I can help you.

 

But here

[Ray561]

It isn't my favorite thing in the world. However, I do think that modding straight characters to be gay is different in some key ways b/c of the social/cultural implications. Real people of color have their skin lightened for magazines and are told that having lighter skin is prettier and better. There are entire companies built around convincing gay people that they 'should' and can be straight, and the idea of corrective rape is still prevalent in many many places. There is no equivalent in the reverse. So if LGBT people or people of color say that mods which perpetuate these concepts in the game upset them, its because those actions are only an extension of real world issues for them.

I really see no difference ether way it's still incredibly disrespectful to both the character and the artist or artists behind them.

making a straight character gay is just as disrespectful as making a gay character straight.

[oceanicsurvivor]

I really see no difference ether way it's still incredibly disrespectful to both the character and the artist or artists behind them.

making a straight character gay is just as disrespectful as making a gay character straight.

I'm going to assume your eyes glazed over on my post before you got to the part about corrective rape then.

 

And I think we are officially OT. So if this needs to go further, PM me.

[Gtdef]

@oceanic

 

I disagree 100%

 

There are no social and cultural implications in something that was modified for personal use. If I want to make a mod that allows me to drop a nuclear bomb in the capital of Orlais doesn't imply that I spread the message that it's good to be a terrorist.

 

Should I stop painting my house white as well cause black people will take offense? That's what these characters are. Objects with a predetermined behavior. Their value is subjective and only relevant to the person that makes use of them. Being lifelike doesn't make them any more real than they are.

 

The social implications apply only when something is in a position to influence.

[Maria Caliban]

No, it's not. Personally, I'm uncomfortable with m/m sexuality, yet you'll find me supporting gay people's rights and total equality before the law every time it comes up in politics. Should I prefer to avoid gay romances in games (and installing an orientation mod is just a more elaborate way of doing that), that has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with my political stance. I have my political opinion because I highly value fairness, and I won't let my personal feelings get in the way of that, but I still have them and I feel I can legitimately expect not to be judged for them.

Why quote my post on whitewashing to tell me that m/m makes you uncomfortable?

You could at least tell me that black people make you uncomfortable so I know you're responding to my post.

[Ray561]

I'm going to assume your eyes glazed over on my post before you got to the part about corrective rape.

No I read your entire post ,Just because I don't agree with your point dose not mean I did not read it.

 

Just because there are disrespectful company's that try to correct your way's ( which I don't support and they should be shut down by the law.),

Dose not make this case any more disrespectful Gay men and women want to be treated equal so this should be looked at as equally disrespectful. 

[oceanicsurvivor]

@oceanic

 

I disagree 100%

 

There are no social and cultural implications in something that was modified for personal use. If I want to make a mod that allows me to drop a nuclear bomb in the capital of Orlais doesn't imply that I spread the message that it's good to be a terrorist.

 

Should I stop painting my house white as well cause black people will take offense? That's what these characters are. Objects with a predetermined behavior. Their value is subjective and only relevant to the person that makes use of them. Being lifelike doesn't make them any more real than they are.

 

The social implications apply only when something is in a position to influence.

 

Given that Fair skinned Isabela is the second most downloaded mod on nexusmods I think it does have social and cultural implications. Even moreso when people come here to discuss how much prettier characters look with those changes, and how various women characters need those changes to be sexy or desirable. None of those choices exist in the pure vacuum you seem to want them to.

 

I have zero idea what the color of your house has to do with anything and frankly I think your entire post is filled with absurdities that have very little to no bearing on anything in my post. And again, if you feel like engaging further, take it to PM.

[nici2412]

Yeah, if you really can't understand how thats fundamentally different in our society, I really doubt I can help you.

 

But here

if we are throwing wikipedia links at each other

http://en.wikipedia....e_with_albinism

http://www.sajbl.org...le/view/236/287

[Magdalena11]

So the hundred of millions of people who tan themselves through comsetics, solarium or just the sun,  trying to make their skin look darker are just a imagination? You know, there are also entire companies build around to make the skin look "less white". (they mentioned solariums or cosmetics like tan accelerators)

There is a difference between RL people who chose to risk their health to achieve cosmetic effects that affect only them and mods that change many hours of writers' and artists visions to make the game more palatable to an individual player.  In past games, modded sexualities and skin tones were created to correct exclusions in the game, and that seems to have been corrected.  There is a choice for a dark skinned person who wants to play a PC that looks like themself, and there is a choice for players who want to play a s/s romance.  Whitewashing or changing sexualities because the design choices that are available aren't palatable is not something the designers are going to welcome with open arms.  

[oceanicsurvivor]

if we are throwing wikipedia links at each other

http://en.wikipedia....e_with_albinism

http://www.sajbl.org...le/view/236/287

oh, you mean Ableism

[nici2412]

oh, you mean Ableism

No I meant exactly what i posted.

[Ieldra]

@Maria Caliban:
I made the assumption that your statement about skin-lightening mods also applied to mods that make NPCs straight. It appears I misunderstood. Sorry.

[karushna5]

Erasure is bad because it is a minority, not because a fictional character's personhood is being questioned. People who turn one of the few characters who are PoC white are saying something whether they want to or not. Reversed, it becomes a world where White people are not the most important, and is a reversal of most media in which you live your life. Same for gay people, there are so few of us in media as full fledged characters having romance arcs, that to have a mod where we can have that a little more is understandable, but straight people making mods to erase that, and even more romance as the opposite sex brings up a lot of hatred and pain we felt in the past. This on top of them having tons and tons of stuff to the point of suffocation to the rest of us.

 

Really, the motives and emotions behind it is completely different. One is to be more affirmed and the other is to have even more than they already have because nearly everything is not enough, or even hatred towards another group to the point of erasure. Straight people will be annoyed from what they see as inequality. I am hurt due to a tiny bit of representation, especially good representation, stolen when you already have so much.

 

You have annoyance of what you see is partial treatment and what you feel is hypocrisy. For us, it is like someone having 10 different flavors of pie that they usually only give us a sliver of if even that. But when we get a pie, it is always cut in half. Us wanting more of that pie and maybe sneaking a few bites in under your nose, can't really be seen as wrong when you have all that pie. But when you see us sneaking and thus think it is fair to sneak a few bites from us? That is mean. We have so little as it is.It is actually worse, because people do say subtle things about themselves when they do erase characters or make Mods. Making Sera a WoC? You are saying that you want more women of color. Any one who says you already have 2 be happy with it, is already being belittling, because they have no idea how much fiction is filled with dozens of White People and they would be enraged if media after media acted like 2 White people was a gift and most media didn't have that.

 

But erase one of those 2 WoC, and you deserved to be judged. Like somehow you couldn't stand there being that few WoC. There had to be less. There is a complete different motive and effect. One is emotionally damaging the other is annoying. I fell in love with Dragon Age over choice but I am on pins and needles because it hurts not to see myself anywhere. That lesbians even where I can find them, don't have love stories, and there isn't any feeling of recognizing yourself, and I have to hide at work and at home because one place can fire me over it for being to open, even when answering questions most people answer everyday without thinking. And at home I could be evicted, and my fiance fired due to being found out. I search hours on the internet for a good lesbian book and usually come up empty seeing the reviews for these books bomb them because the girl should have ended up with the guy.

Making Sera Straight hurts that. It is one of the few things that are mine. I am not too excited about her character but I love her so much and am very protective because she is all I have as a lesbian character who falls in love and gets a love story. She is precious. And with Disney movies and rom-com after rom-com, and plays dating back centuries, and bedtime stories, and nearly every movie, and every book gives you what I would give up so much for, validation.

So it is not the same. At All. When it is the same? When there are children movies with LGBT heroes, and TV shows by the Dozens where the question is will she tell her? And book after book of every genre not put together in the same section about gay heroes and their daring lovers. When all of this is done without people yelling that we have some agenda or "the gayz are ruining everything" then yes, it is the same thing, but its not, at all, and I don't know any other way to put it.

[Zazzerka]

Your pie metaphor falls apart (not unlike a badly made pie) when you acknowledge that no-one is taking anything from anyone.

[oceanicsurvivor]

No I meant exactly what i posted.

If you have that condition you can't get tan. If you feel this should be debated further, then take it to pm.

[Gtdef]

 

Given that Fair skinned Isabela is the second most downloaded mod on nexusmods I think it does have social and cultural implications. Even moreso when people come here to discuss how much prettier characters look with those changes, and how various women characters need those changes to be sexy or desirable. None of those choices exist in the pure vacuum you seem to want them to.

 

I have zero idea what the color of your house has to do with anything and frankly I think your entire post is filled with absurdities that have very little to no bearing on anything in my post. And again, if you feel like engaging further, take it to PM.

 

Of course you don't have any idea what it has to do with anything, because taking the moral high ground without any consideration whatsoever feels good, doesn't it? Means you don't have to read.

 

The popularity of the mod doesn't imply anything. It only states one obvious fact, that people like it. And talking about how something looks better a different way doesn't imply anything more than the obvious, that an individual thinks it does.

 

The only thing you do is paint them as the bad guys and almost call them racist because you think an object that is representative of a minority should be more important than it actually is. It doesn't work that way and personally I think it's offensive.

[Ray561]

Erasure is bad because it is a minority, not because a fictional character's personhood is being questioned. People who turn one of the few characters who are PoC white are saying something whether they want to or not. Reversed, it becomes a world where White people are not the most important, and is a reversal of most media in which you live your life. Same for gay people, there are so few of us in media as full fledged characters having romance arcs, that to have a mod where we can have that a little more is understandable, but straight people making mods to erase that, and even more romance as the opposite sex brings up a lot of hatred and pain we felt in the past. This on top of them having tons and tons of stuff to the point of suffocation to the rest of us.

 

Really, the motives and emotions behind it is completely different. One is to be more affirmed and the other is to have even more than they already have because nearly everything is not enough, or even hatred towards another group to the point of erasure. Straight people will be annoyed from what they see as inequality. I am hurt due to a tiny bit of representation, especially good representation, stolen when you already have so much.

 

You have annoyance of what you see is partial treatment and what you feel is hypocrisy. For us, it is like someone having 10 different flavors of pie that they usually only give us a sliver of if even that. But when we get a pie, it is always cut in half. Us wanting more of that pie and maybe sneaking a few bites in under your nose, can't really be seen as wrong when you have all that pie. But when you see us sneaking and thus think it is fair to sneak a few bites from us? That is mean. We have so little as it is.It is actually worse, because people do say subtle things about themselves when they do erase characters or make Mods. Making Sera a WoC? You are saying that you want more women of color. Any one who says you already have 2 be happy with it, is already being belittling, because they have no idea how much fiction is filled with dozens of White People and they would be enraged if media after media acted like 2 White people was a gift and most media didn't have that.

 

But erase one of those 2 WoC, and you deserved to be judged. Like somehow you couldn't stand there being that few WoC. There had to be less. There is a complete different motive and effect. One is emotionally damaging the other is annoying. I fell in love with Dragon Age over choice but I am on pins and needles because it hurts not to see myself anywhere. That lesbians even where I can find them, don't have love stories, and there isn't any feeling of recognizing yourself, and I have to hide at work and at home because one place can fire me over it for being to open, even when answering questions most people answer everyday without thinking. And at home I could be evicted, and my fiance fired due to being found out. I search hours on the internet for a good lesbian book and usually come up empty seeing the reviews for these books bomb them because the girl should have ended up with the guy.

Making Sera Straight hurts that. It is one of the few things that are mine. I am not too excited about her character but I love her so much and am very protective because she is all I have as a lesbian character who falls in love and gets a love story. She is precious. And with Disney movies and rom-com after rom-com, and plays dating back centuries, and bedtime stories, and nearly every movie, and every book gives you what I would give up so much for, validation.

So it is not the same. At All. When it is the same? When there are children movies with LGBT heroes, and TV shows by the Dozens where the question is will she tell her? And book after book of every genre not put together in the same section about gay heroes and their daring lovers. When all of this is done without people yelling that we have some agenda or "the gayz are ruining everything" then yes, it is the same thing, but its not, at all, and I don't know any other way to put it.

So it's OK to be disrespectful if you are a minority?

 

what a load  of hooha.

[Lillian]

Can we all just leave a person's immutable facts (sexuality, race, etc.) alone? I don't care how ironic it is to make a straight character gay. I don't care how much of a statement drastically darkening a white person's skin tone is. It's disrespectful, and given my identity, I wouldn't want anyone else to feel like their sexuality or skin color is "wrong".

I want to have people accept the identity they were born with and treat people, regardless of immutable facts like that, in a humane way. It's not that difficult of a concept.

[karushna5]

Your pie metaphor falls apart (not unlike a badly made pie) when you acknowledge that no-one is taking anything from anyone.

Yes they are. You have a hard time seeing that, but they are. Even in their personal game they are erasing us, and that hurts. Recognizing yourself in a character being proud of that and then seeing people ignore that one shred of existance like it is too much, hurts and is taking away. You can't see it because you take for granted all of the validation you have everywhere.

[Lennard Testarossa]

So the hundred of millions of people who tan themselves through comsetics, solarium or just the sun,  trying to make their skin look darker are just a imagination? You know, there are also entire companies build around to make the skin look "less white". (they mentioned solariums or cosmetics like tan accelerators)

 

While I don't really care for this discussion and all the whining associated with it, I do have to point out that it's not really the same thing. Tanning (at least if done right) has absolutely nothing to do with changing your natural skin color. Because what is the 'natural' skin color of a person? Is it the one they'd have if they spent their entire life in a dark room and never came into contact with light? Hardly.

 

The most reasonable definition one can find for the 'natural' skin color of a person would be the one they'd have if they spent every hour of every day outdoors in whatever area they are from. That is, after all, what their ancestors did and what their skin is ultimately 'designed for'. It's what would give you what is known as a 'healthy looking tan'. Tanning isn't about changing your natural skin color, it's about attaining it.

 

(Some people don't get this, of course, and end up having orange leather for their skin.)

[oceanicsurvivor]

 

 

 

Of course you don't have any idea what it has to do with anything, because taking the moral high ground without any consideration whatsoever feels good, doesn't it? Means you don't have to read.

 

The popularity of the mod doesn't imply anything. It only states one obvious fact, that people like it. And talking about how something looks better a different way doesn't imply anything more than the obvious, that an individual thinks it does.

 

The only thing you do is paint them as the bad guys and almost call them racist because you think an object that is representative of a minority should be more important than it actually is. It doesn't work that way and personally I think it's offensive.

 

 

 

Given that Fair skinned Isabela is the second most downloaded mod on nexusmods I think it does have social and cultural implications. Even moreso when people come here to discuss how much prettier characters look with those changes, and how various women characters need those changes to be sexy or desirable. None of those choices exist in the pure vacuum you seem to want them to.

 

I have zero idea what the color of your house has to do with anything and frankly I think your entire post is filled with absurdities that have very little to no bearing on anything in my post. And again, if you feel like engaging further, take it to PM.

 

For real this is OT.