3344 réponses à ce sujet

[Gtdef]

I'm not taking it to pm. You chose to post an opinion on this topic, I'm going to continue here. If you don't want to have the conversation just ignore me.

[karushna5]

Can we all just leave a person's immutable facts (sexuality, race, etc.) alone? I don't care how ironic it is to make a straight character gay. I don't care how much of a statement drastically darkening a white person's skin tone is. It's disrespectful, and given my identity, I wouldn't want anyone else to feel like their sexuality or skin color is "wrong".

I want to have people accept the identity they were born with and treat people, regardless of immutable facts like that, in a humane way. It's not that difficult of a concept.

it isn't disrespectful because they are not real people. They don't have feelings or rights. It is disrespectful to the group involved. But White people are not actually hurt if Spiderman was written now on as Black. They lose no validation, they don't lose history or culture because 90% of the big names in comics were made during a time where having a Black character at all was lauded even if a horrible portrayal. It is giving up a monopoly. And straight people are not disrespected if people ship idk Sherlock and Watson. But it is very side eye worthy if people took the very few characters we had and put them with straight people, and headcannoned them as Straight. Because the character has no rights, they aren't real, but others can.

 

But the majority really only notices things against them

[nici2412]

Erasure is bad because it is a minority, not because a fictional character's personhood is being questioned. People who turn one of the few characters who are PoC white are saying something whether they want to or not. Reversed, it becomes a world where White people are not the most important, and is a reversal of most media in which you live your life. Same for gay people, there are so few of us in media as full fledged characters having romance arcs, that to have a mod where we can have that a little more is understandable, but straight people making mods to erase that, and even more romance as the opposite sex brings up a lot of hatred and pain we felt in the past. This on top of them having tons and tons of stuff to the point of suffocation to the rest of us.

 

Really, the motives and emotions behind it is completely different. One is to be more affirmed and the other is to have even more than they already have because nearly everything is not enough, or even hatred towards another group to the point of erasure. Straight people will be annoyed from what they see as inequality. I am hurt due to a tiny bit of representation, especially good representation, stolen when you already have so much.

 

You have annoyance of what you see is partial treatment and what you feel is hypocrisy. For us, it is like someone having 10 different flavors of pie that they usually only give us a sliver of if even that. But when we get a pie, it is always cut in half. Us wanting more of that pie and maybe sneaking a few bites in under your nose, can't really be seen as wrong when you have all that pie. But when you see us sneaking and thus think it is fair to sneak a few bites from us? That is mean. We have so little as it is.It is actually worse, because people do say subtle things about themselves when they do erase characters or make Mods. Making Sera a WoC? You are saying that you want more women of color. Any one who says you already have 2 be happy with it, is already being belittling, because they have no idea how much fiction is filled with dozens of White People and they would be enraged if media after media acted like 2 White people was a gift and most media didn't have that.

 

But erase one of those 2 WoC, and you deserved to be judged. Like somehow you couldn't stand there being that few WoC. There had to be less. There is a complete different motive and effect. One is emotionally damaging the other is annoying. I fell in love with Dragon Age over choice but I am on pins and needles because it hurts not to see myself anywhere. That lesbians even where I can find them, don't have love stories, and there isn't any feeling of recognizing yourself, and I have to hide at work and at home because one place can fire me over it for being to open, even when answering questions most people answer everyday without thinking. And at home I could be evicted, and my fiance fired due to being found out. I search hours on the internet for a good lesbian book and usually come up empty seeing the reviews for these books bomb them because the girl should have ended up with the guy.

Making Sera Straight hurts that. It is one of the few things that are mine. I am not too excited about her character but I love her so much and am very protective because she is all I have as a lesbian character who falls in love and gets a love story. She is precious. And with Disney movies and rom-com after rom-com, and plays dating back centuries, and bedtime stories, and nearly every movie, and every book gives you what I would give up so much for, validation.

So it is not the same. At All. When it is the same? When there are children movies with LGBT heroes, and TV shows by the Dozens where the question is will she tell her? And book after book of every genre not put together in the same section about gay heroes and their daring lovers. When all of this is done without people yelling that we have some agenda or "the gayz are ruining everything" then yes, it is the same thing, but its not, at all, and I don't know any other way to put it.

I don't want to go into your written text, but it sounds like you think some people demand from  the developer to make specific characters straight or white. We were talking about mods.(optional content created by other players) If someone changes sarahs sexuality through a mod, you just don't have to download and install it. It won't change anything for you,you probably won't even know it.

I think there problem here is, that some people just want to enjoy Dragon Age as that what it is- a game.They will  change their game however they want as long as it makes their gaming experience better. . Other people try to bring their social/political or whatever agenda into it. That's fine, but when they are trying to force their agenda onto other people in cases where it doesn't affect them (mods) it stops being fine.

[Ieldra]

@karushna:
The thing is, merely by using such a mod (which I don't, btw, I'm just defending the practice because I think judging people for it is unfair) I don't take anything away from you, nor do I make a political statement. I can do so while explicitly supporting the way the developers did things (which I do, in fact). There's a lot of difference between "I like things to be different for my game" and "why the hell did developers make X gay/dark/whatever?" or "Hey look at this mod I made. X is beautiful at last".

Can personal preferences be innocent? Maybe they often aren't, but I insist that they can be. Also, I insist that just because some group has been a majority doesn't make it ok to look down on them and judge them for being what they are and acting on it in a personal, inoffensive manner.

To use an example from the game: I really like Dorian as a character. He's one of two types I've always wanted to see, and this has to do nothing with his being gay or even being an LI. For my appreciation of him as a character, it doesn't matter in the least that he's gay, someone had to be and I'm all for characters having defined orientations as well as everyone getting a choice in their LI. Even so, on a personal level I'm disappointed that he's gay and of course I'm considering whether it's feasible to mod his romance. I won't do it because it's not *that* important - I'm going to romance someone else - but it's not the business of the LGBT people to tell me that I can't or shouldn't. If they're offended by what I'm doing on my own PC, that's their problem and I'm not going to give it the least bit of consideration. Or rather, I will, because such an attitude is totalitarian, just the same kind of attitude responsible for their problems. It deserves to be fought.

[SofaJockey]

Just to say I think we're heading into thread locking / mod attention territory here, people...

Might want to make a thread about racial/sexual modding, but I wouldn't take bets on how long it would last.

[Ray561]

I'm done arguing because apparently it is Ok providing you only take from a majority group because we have no right and should not be annoyed by anything because we have more then a minority.

[XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX]

The mod creator said he fixed her overly dark everything and made her a whole new kind of beautiful. That was the original description before I guess he realized he put his foot in his mouth like a moron.
 
 
 
 
*vomits everywhere*
 
So um...yeah plenty of reasons for people to express distaste of that.
 
The funny/sad thing is my opinion of the mod was "meh who cares" til I read that description. Then I kind of sighed because wow. Just...wow.

Im not sure how anyone who isn't a racist can defend that, the mod creator pretty much said "I dislike normal Isabela cos she has dark skin, so ive improved her by turning her into a blue eyed, blond haired aryan woman which is much better"

Is really uncomfortable to me

[SnakeCode]

it isn't disrespectful because they are not real people. They don't have feelings or rights. It is disrespectful to the group involved. But White people are not actually hurt if Spiderman was written now on as Black. They lose no validation, they don't lose history or culture because 90% of the big names in comics were made during a time where having a Black character at all was lauded even if a horrible portrayal. It is giving up a monopoly. And straight people are not disrespected if people ship idk Sherlock and Watson. But it is very side eye worthy if people took the very few characters we had and put them with straight people, and headcannoned them as Straight. Because the character has no rights, they aren't real, but others can.

 

But the majority really only notices things against them

So what you're saying is 'what is a sin for thee isn't for me' ?

[Rane7685]

This thread badly needs moderation... 

[HaHa365]

Bioware has given a fair amount of choice, for everyone in this game. There is just no pleasing everyone, it's just not possible. If this one aspect of the game bothers you that much, maybe consider alternatives.

[carlo angelo]

I'm done arguing because apparently it is Ok providing you only take from a majority group because we have no right and should not be annoyed by anything because we have more then a minority.

I'll try and be gentle as I can with this reply, but I wouldn't say this is about taking away from the majority. I wouldn't want to make any of the straight characters gay, and that's not what these other posters are wanting either.

 

It's more about taking away from a minority- gay to straight, PoC to white. Because they are few and far in between. I personally wouldn't want any mods and I won't be quick to call such and such a racist or homophobe who uses them, but it's asking why would you want to make characters like Dorian straight or Josephine white- representations of social minorities, into representations of people who you would find no shortage of in stories, film, animations, and of course, video games. Are they that repulsive that you'd consider them not up to standard enough to be made present in your free time? Maybe because I identify as both gay and someone of colour, but I see it, and it... leads to some unfortunate implications.

[Ieldra]

Bioware has given a fair amount of choice, for everyone in this game.

Absolutely, and I'll defend the setup even though I didn't get everything I wanted. Most of the characters appear to be really interesting. I'm looking forward to all their stories.

[Steelcan]

This thread badly needs moderation... 

well you choices are Allan or BioWare Mod 2

 

and depending on the day BioWare Mod 2 will either politely request to go back on topic, or locks for everyone

[Bugsie]

Bioware has given a fair amount of choice, for everyone in this game. There is just no pleasing everyone, it's just not possible. If this one aspect of the game bothers you that much, maybe consider alternatives.

Definitely the case, but I would say that because I'll 'romance all the things!'

Just one last note on mods... then I'll say no more on the topic

Spoiler

If by 'forcing your agenda' it means 'judging you for using mods I find distasteful and offensive but for which I can't stop you making or using' then the 'problem' is yours alone.

If you can't see why the existence of mods that whitewash or allow you to rape are problematic for some people then I doubt any 'agenda' would affect you anyway.

[Ray561]

I'll try and be gentle as I can with this reply, but I wouldn't say this is about taking away from the majority. I wouldn't want to make any of the straight characters gay, and that's not what these other posters are wanting either.

 

It's more about taking away from a minority- gay to straight, PoC to white. Because they are few and far in between. I personally wouldn't want any mods and I won't be quick to call such and such a racist or homophobe who uses them, but it's asking why would you want to make characters like Dorian straight or Josephine white- representations of social minorities, into representations of people who you would find no shortage of in stories, film, animations, and of course, video games. Are they that repulsive that you'd consider them not up to standard enough to be made present in your free time? Maybe because I identify as both gay and someone of colour, but I see it, and it... leads to some unfortunate implications.

But that is saying it's OK to take form a majority because there no shortage of it, but not a minority because there few and far between.

That is not the equal treatment everyone wants that is special treatment.

 

I hate the Idea of changing anyone's anything and it should be seen as equally disrespectful and if it's not going to then no one has a right to see is as disrespectful. 

 

"edit" if you want to continue this conversation do it via pm so we do keep steering this off topic

otherwise it's clear we will never agree on the subject.

Modifié par Ray561, 08 septembre 2014 - 12:39 .

[carlo angelo]

taken to PM...

[Ynqve]

Wow. This thread decided to go places! 

 

So how about them romances? 

[Chari]

it isn't disrespectful because they are not real people. They don't have feelings or rights. It is disrespectful to the group involved. But White people are not actually hurt if Spiderman was written now on as Black. They lose no validation, they don't lose history or culture because 90% of the big names in comics were made during a time where having a Black character at all was lauded even if a horrible portrayal. It is giving up a monopoly. And straight people are not disrespected if people ship idk Sherlock and Watson. But it is very side eye worthy if people took the very few characters we had and put them with straight people, and headcannoned them as Straight. Because the character has no rights, they aren't real, but others can.

 

But the majority really only notices things against them

Wow, that's some fine bullshit

So making offensive jokes, mods, other actions about the majorities (who just never suffer from injustice, just, never) is okay because that's they used to "have it all"? That's the same kind of logic many conservative jerks use. Just instead of "I'm white/male/heterosexual and that gives me a right to be disrespectful towards others" it's "I'm poc/female/not-heterosexual and that gives me a right to be disrespectful towards others"

That's... blatantly sexist, racist and heterophobic

What's next? Let's start an age of slavery and discrimination against white folk/men/heterosexuals just because they used to do that centures ago? 

[CrimsonN7]

Wow. This thread decided to go places! 

 

So how about them romances? 

 

Still a better love story than Twilight ain't it.

 

So who are you gonna romance Ynqve?

[Ynqve]

Still a better love story than Twilight ain't it.

 

So who are you gonna romance Ynqve?

 

I'm gonna do some wall climbing! And then I'll roll a dude for Dorian. How about you? 

[SnakeCode]

Wow. This thread decided to go places! 

 

So how about them romances? 

Surely you mean "Wow. This thread decided to go places. Again."  ?

[Ynqve]

Surely you mean "Wow. This thread decided to go places. Again."  ?

 

Of course, you're absolutely right! I really should be used to it by now xD

[CrimsonN7]

I'm gonna do some wall climbing! And then I'll roll a dude for Dorian. How about you? 

 

Gonna get Sera to unlock my lock, then dip into Josie in the second run with a fem Inquisy. Then later will attempt to #TapDatCass, might not get far though, I have a short attention span when it comes to m/f romances in these games.

[Ray561]

I will say one more thing about modding though modders can enjoy having the wrong genders Voice's in the romance scenes AKA ME3

[Yinello]

I still can't decide if I want to ride the bull or scale the wall.

 

The wall I fear might not have a happy ending... but the bull might not be a joyride. D=