51 réponses à ce sujet

[Allan Schumacher]

Do we know why Vivi isn't a Li at least ?

 

It's something that I don't want to spoil since it is a part of her story.  It's something that, when I learned about it, made me go "Okay that makes sense."  At least for me.  I'm sure some will disagree.

 

Note that this doesn't mean someone can't be disappointed because they found her attractive, or that specifically because she's a prominent woman of colour, it sucks to not be able to romance her specifically because our games haven't historically had anyone like her at all.

[Allan Schumacher]

Why would you be ashamed to be a straight while male?  This is what I'm talking about. 

You shouldn't feel ashamed of being a straight white person.  I don't.

[Allan Schumacher]

Is this just your personal opinion or is this the official view from bioware?

 

Speaking personally.

[Allan Schumacher]

Really? Isn't that what happened in ME3? straight males got an obvious bigger options then everyone else and people showed concern about that. Were they wrong about that as well?

 

It has to be analyzed from the greater cultural lens on a macrolevel in order to understand the complaints.  A single game isn't an issue.  Nor is it a remedy.

 

The issue is when looking at the pervasiveness of the idea across all games, and even all forms of entertainment.

 

 

Which is why I don't consider the context of the complaints to be equivalent.  I'm much more of a "big picture equality" type of person, rather than "any single individual game must be perfectly equal."

[Allan Schumacher]

"as a straight guy I have no quibbles with the extra romances going to females."

 

where is that edit button >_>

 

Sometimes you need to refresh the page for it to show up after posting.

[Allan Schumacher]

What would you say that means for gay and lesbian representation?

 

Personally, I can't see how things could realistically get much better than an occasional game that is equal.  That's really what I would want, anyway.

 

I think that gaming would benefit by having gay and lesbian relationshps (and protagonists) feature more prominently than they do now.

 

I'm okay (and encourage) the idea of a game like Uncharted having a character that happens to be gay instead of straight.  I think (but am not 100% certain) that they may be going in the direction that Lara Croft is a lesbian with the reboot, which I think is also a good idea if so.

[Allan Schumacher]

Oh, I did not know that about Tomb Raider.  That would be cool if so.

 

I feel that, in general, female homosexuality will be much easier for main stream audiences to 'tolerate.'  I wish the same could be said for male homosexuality but in my personal experience, that is unfortunately much more negatively received. 

 

I might be mistaken with Tomb Raider (it's been a while since I played it) unfortunately, based on some other comments.

 

I do agree with you that female homosexuality is seen as more acceptable.

[Allan Schumacher]

Female homosexuality is less negatively received only in a sense that it's not taken seriously - that's also why in the media most of the time lesbian characters end up sleeping with men. Interestingly, despite this popular opinion that the public tolerates lesbian more than gay men, as annual GLAAD reports show, gay men make majority of all LGBT representation in Hollywood.

 

Thanks for sharing this as it's a perspective I'm less familiar with.

[Allan Schumacher]

True but only in the sense that is serves the sexual interest of the stereotypical straight male audience* and that females are lesser than males so who cares when they drink some wine and have pillow fights when the menfolk aren't around.  Don't get me wrong I almost appreciate their interest because it's probably the only reason I ever got options in the first place, but until recently lesbian romances were not made for lesbian or bisexual women and sitll often aren't.

 

*Standard disclaimer that the stereotypical audience does not include all men.

 

I think this is a fair critique and I don't disagree with it.

[Allan Schumacher]

It's not hard to believe that women are becoming more gamer prone than in years past (I'd actually like to know what caused this drift). Even if the gap is closer than in  years past it doesn't account for the reason why Bioware is choosing to appeal to other themes, such as those of the gay nature. Perhaps I am ultra conservative in this respect but showcasing certain themes in games just for the sake of doing so doesn't make much sense to me, it feels forced due to either social or cultural pressure to change. The result is that those of traditional viewpoints are being left behind and somehow becoming a minority (at least it feels that way) and the gay cultural is now being put on a pedestal as the next best thing since sliced bread.

 

 

Most of the content in our game is pretty sexuality... agnostic? (for lack of a better term)  Straight people will like the adventure they go on.  Gay people will too.  So will all sorts of other sexual orientations.

 

The romances just make up a slice of it.  It's not "forced" due to social or cultural pressure to change... though I do think that social and cultural shifts make it an easier topic for us to address than maybe it would have been in the past.

 

 

I don't consider "gay culture" to be on a pedestal.  It is getting more exposure now (from virtually nothing) and to some there's the inclination to believe that it is "everywhere" simply because they are not used to seeing it at all.

[Allan Schumacher]

You know, this explanation of "privilege" completely baffles me. Outside of the internet, I've never heard anyone use it in any context even remotely similar to what you wrote here.

 

Practically all my life, privilege meant this instead:

 

A right or special exception, granted to a single person or a small number of people by a higher authority.

 

From Latin: privilegium,  consisting of 

privus - single, special

lex, legis - the law

 

Originally, the word did not even make a difference between a right and a duty. If Claudius Minimax was ordered to clean the collosseum's latrines each Saturday night, that was in fact a privilege.

 

How the heck did it get from there - the "privus" part makes it kinda clear that it cannot refer to a large number of people, let alone a majority - to what you wrote? Arbitrary redefinition? Internet phenomenon?

 

I'm not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious.

 

 

With the context of social aspects, the term privilege consistently means the invisible advantages that people, often obliviously, get through being associated with a particular group.

 

To take a dictionary definition: http://dictionary.re...rowse/privilege 6 is probably the strongest fit.

 

In my experience, many also get defensive because they seem to think that the association is exclusively financial (being born into privilege conveying a sense of wealth/inheritance).  But, for example, one of the common aspects of straight privilege is that I can, in general, openly speak about the person I love and very likely not receive any sort of ridicule or judgment for it.  A gay person often does not have that privilege.

 

 

I think others have stated it, but the academic usage in this context is reasonably common.

[Allan Schumacher]

Wow, you know what? Both women whom I had hoped to romance in this game are unavailable. Sera is only into women and Vivienne isn't an option, it would seem that I have made poor choices this time around.

 

Hopefully once in game it'll either not be a big issue, or someone you previously wrote off actually is a good fit!

[Allan Schumacher]

I dunno if this is supposed to be a negative or positive comment, but here goes. I freely admit Dorian seems a little worrying, and I also freely admit it has to do with lack of knowledge and the fact I have big triggers.

 

I think that's fine, and I think that that is part of the challenge.  In that for one particularly character, those impacted by the representation may go "This is fine and acceptable."  While another of that same group may feel "I don't like this... it feels off."  I don't think either view is necessarily invalid.  But for the first group, they conclude "Yessss this was great representation."  For the other group, they go "WTF BioWare!?"  Despite the numbers being even.

[Allan Schumacher]

I said something similar to this point in the Dorian thread recently.  I think the fact that he's already won over several of the devs (males, females, gay, straight) is interesting.  I have a feeling that Dorian is going to be a "mainstream" success and popular with many people of varying demographics.  I'm really going to be watching his reception closely.  If he was done as well as I suspect he was, then he could very well be a turning point for gay representation in mainstream games.

 

That was likely my flailing.  I haven't played with him much (phrasing...) but in the early going of having him in my group he appears to be a good mix of charming, witty, intelligent, and intriguing.

[Allan Schumacher]

This. It's not just about 'not liking' to play a different gender/sexuality for some of us, either. I play as a male because I'm a trans guy and about 90% of the time, trying to play as a woman gives me serious gender dysphoria/shitty feelings since I'm basically just recreating in-game all the misgendering I experience in my real life (being called "miss" and "lady" because I'm not very masculine looking). So it's not just a simple matter of "why don't you try rolling a different gender/that's what RPGs are about" because for ME, rpgs are about giving me the chance to play as the gender I feel most comfortable as. I'm forced to 'role-play' a woman every day. I don't want to do it in my games too.  

 

I don't expect most people to get this because most people are comfortable in their own gender and playing a different one isn't a big deal, but it'd be nice if, before people say "Just play a different gender", they'd try to understand that it's not that simple for all of us. 

 

You're probably right that I won't fully get it, but thank you for sharing the first paragraph because it DOES give me some insight into the challenges you might face, where before I had less.

[David Gaider]

Rather than respond directly, a couple of comments based on a few recent posts:

 

1) Making all (or most, it seems) romances bisexual:

 

That could be done. Of course, since doing so just added on all the extra cinematic work to add the extra genders into the various cinematic conversations (different genders are different heights, requiring extra camera work and a LOT of extra attention in any scene where the two characters interact), that would also mean cutting down on the number of total romances. It is NOT a matter of flipping a switch to add extra options because someone thought that would be more fair... not for genders, not for races. It also means less opportunities to tell new stories, and less variety. So if you're picturing a bonanza where all those romances would now be available to everyone... that was never on the table, and never could be.

 

Also, anyone arguing that straight characters shouldn't exist because "straight people have gotten enough in the past" is going to be summarily ignored. You can have whatever opinion you wish, but this game is not here to single-handedly make up for all of gaming's issues with representation, and suggesting it should be so is likely only to provide fuel for those who erroneously espouse that it is already so.

 

2) Vivienne, as a black woman, not being a LI:

 

I get that some people are disappointed. That's fair--she's pretty awesome, and could have made for an interesting romance if she had been concepted for one. Considering that one could also make an argument about a black woman being present in the game solely to be a fetishized sex object (as if no-one ever made this argument about Isabela?), or that this brings up awkward discussions about skin color vis à vis Josephine, I'm not sure this is a good road to go down. I would hope a character could make for great representation in the game, and do so by being a great character and not solely by whether or not they're available to be romanced, and that this will be evident once someone plays.

[David Gaider]

Well i didnt see any problem with DA2 story, because all LIs except for DLC one were available to the player... Though who am i to argue,i understand you do know better, still doesnt lessen my dissapoinment that i'll only have 1 playthrough,because only one of 2 available options i actually like

 

Understood. The DA2 approach is valid enough--I always said that, given the option of having more total romances, I would prefer we also include a broader representation of sexualities (as the DA2 approach, while fair and convenient for players, does NOT do that). The thing to remember is, if we did use DA2's approach, we would have the same number of romances... and your number of options would not change. You would have 2, at best, and the chances that any of those available might not be to your personal preference would also be exactly the same.

 

As it always is. There is always a chance you won't find a romance to your personal taste, and that includes the ones you already think might be (as once you meet them, that impression might rapidly change). We do not take a shotgun approach, after all, and try to make all our characters "broadly appealing" ...really, what does that even mean aside from pandering to stereotypes? We make characters, give them interesting stories, and include romance arcs which may or may not appeal to the individual player. We do our best, but, failing that, you thankfully still have the rest of the game.

[David Gaider]

All you said is true enough,we still have 2 options as in da2...the thing that bothers me though,that some people now have double of those options, and i cant help but envy them

 

So we should reduce the amount of overall content and reduce (or outright eliminate) representation solely so people who focus on what they don't have rather than what they do don't feel bad about the existence of exclusive content that isn't aimed specifically at them?

 

I get it, and hopefully the envy is something you can get past once you enjoy the game, but I'm afraid that's not something I'm ever going to be able to sign up for, sorry.

[David Gaider]

 

reduce representation? are u saying straight females dont get enough representation in media, thats why you decided to make more options for them? the only thing i can say thats not only them who's having the same treatment. well all right then. thank you for answering me though,i hope i didnt waste your time.

 

I'm talking about DA2's system of having all the LI's being bisexual.

 

The same sentiment applies, however, if one's position is that the two additional romances should be removed because "straight women get too much" (because that's so true everywhere else in the game industry, I suppose) or... well, I don't even know what. Gay people should have gotten more than they did because they also traditionally don't get many options? Why did "we" not get the so-called "extra content"?

 

It boils down to the envy you spoke of, and like I said—if one's primary concern is worrying about content that others have which they don't, or trying to justify why the options they do have are somehow unfair just because they're not the options they personally want, then I'm afraid there's not much to discuss. Hopefully that will change once the game comes out, and you can focus on what's actually there for you.

[David Gaider]

But is it still possible for gay and lesbian gamers to get bonus LI's one day, or will it always be the straight males and females who get more content if the options aren't equal? I'm just asking, because I think many gay and lesbian people want to know if it's ever possible for Bioware to make a game with more gay romances than straight romances or if it's impossible because it'd be too unconventional.

 

I doubt conventionality has anything to do with it.

 

Ultimately we do have to take into account, at some point, how much content is going to be used. I say "at some point" because there's only so far one can take such an argument before we start justifying removing things like rogues and dwarves... the existence of options provides inherent value even to those people who do not take the options. That argument does apply when it comes to extra options, however.

 

If one is looking to Dragon Age to provide more options to gay players than everyone else because "we're the game that does that", I'd have to warn caution on that particular supposition. DA is not the gay messiah of the gaming industry. I won't say it could never happen, as I'm not the person who gets to decide such things, and--honestly--if we found a really compelling creative reason to do so we might find a way regardless, so I cannot rule it out. But let's not put the cart before the horse either, shall we?

[David Gaider]

By the way, you can also consider DLC options. Since people are so against equal representation, than use an economic model, where you can sell more options down the line, to those who will pay for it.

 

The idea of romances as DLC has come up from time to time. I'm uncertain whether it will ever happen, however. I doubt the team in general is all that interested in such a focus.

[David Gaider]

So I'm figuring that one bi-relationship, such as Josephine can be as much work as two single-sex relationships, Sera and Dorian combined. And probably still less work than Iron Bull because he's big.

 

I imagine that whilst being sad for the Dwarfquisitors, the VA and particularly animation saving on the 'extra' gated romances Cullen and Solas must be significant and makes those relationships possible.

 

Both these points are correct.

[David Gaider]

I do think you and others are missing the point in regards to Viv and race to an extent. Going by what we know of Viv, she is a strong independent black woman, who is ambitious, have goals that she is working hard to reach and she likes to look fabulous. A lot of these things fall into stereotypical traits. If you go into circles where black women discuss these traits/stereotype, what they say very often they would want to see in order to humanize these characters and tear apart the stereotype, is allowing her/them to be vulnerable(!), shown as worthy of love/desirable and showing/receiving affection. And these aspects are very often presented in a romantic context. This partly relates to that this stereotype is often default single, and particularly never shown to be open, affectionate or vulnerable with a romantic partner because of that.

 

Furthermore while you have the Jezebel as the hypersexual, another very widely spread stereotype is The Mammy who is basically treated as asexual. There is no in between here. "At best" you got the Sapphire who nags and nags and emasculates her husband and puts everybody down. That has now partly morphed into the "Angry Black Woman" and what all of these common stereotypes share, is an utter lack of positive romantic relationships, which also not so subtly suggests that black women in general are not good romantic partners or even potential ones.

So it does not boil down in "wanting to bone" her as some might think. It is simply that the path with most potential to humanize and flip the bird to those stereotypical traits lie in the romantic path. And it loses out even more because romance is done from the player's perspective. So you also lose out on many people (potentially) running into this stereotype, and then being an interactive part in going against it. Lastly it is not related to Josephine remotely who has a different personality and does not seemingly present those stereotypical traits.

 

While arguments can be made to boil down any character into a trope-- often to the point of purposefully blurring out any characteristics that don't match the trope in order to do so-- I do understand that tropes can potentially be harmful in aggregate, particularly to minorities.

 

My point was that the opposite argument about Vivienne being present only for fetishization purposes could be made, were she a LI, so suggesting that her not being a LI is also somehow problematic very much presents a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation... aside from rather pointedly ignoring Josephine, in a sense of "but I wanted Vivienne more" kind of way. Which, as I said, I get. Vivienne is awesome. But let's not pretend that people wouldn't make arguments to one end or another regardless.

 

Insofar as to whether Vivienne specifically matches any tropes, "Strong Independent Black Woman" or otherwise, I suggest playing the game and seeing for yourself before assuming that what you fear might be is what she actually is, or that a romance would be required to "humanize" her as a result.

[David Gaider]

You are probably right.  I'm just kicking myself because I allowed myself to start to think otherwise and I just got a wake-up call that even those companies that are aware of this are still not willing to push the envelope.  It's exactly what I caution other people against doing:  getting my hopes up and then getting frustrated when I was wrong.  So this is just a giant disappointment, but, like all other things, this too shall pass.

 

It's unfortunate you're disappointed. I'm not sure, however, that holding out that us providing more gay options than any other as the only means of "pushing the envelope" is a very fair thing to do. The LGBT audience is still pretty small--you must recognize that, yes? I am a gay man, and I recognize that. If BioWare was overly worried about the reaction of the larger audience, we wouldn't be providing content aimed exclusively at gay players at all... but we do, and it's not insignificant. More than that, gay content (meaning characters and story) is present in more places than simply player romances. I'm uncertain how that could be disappointing, unless you're looking for us to single-handedly make up for a lack of such content everywhere else in the industry?

 

If you are, that seems like an expectation that's setting yourself up for disappointment. I hope that our efforts ultimately please you, regardless.

[David Gaider]

I'm Quite Dissapointed for the straight male player romances in the game, Josephine Cassandra and... thats it... for the straight males. 

 

If you're disappointed in the number, I can assure you the number is the same number of options you've had in the last two games.

 

If you're disappointed in the selection, then so be it. You're not alone, if commentary on the forum is anything to go by. Personal preference is what it is, and like I've said previously, there's hardly a guarantee that a person will find anything they personally find attractive no matter the number of options. If the idea is that "straight males" in general won't find either of those options attractive... well, we have a large number of straight men who work here in the office who would vigorously object to that assertion, I assure you. Might not want to speak on their behalf.