3344 réponses à ce sujet

[Angloassassin]

My work here is done - And by work, I mean the labor that was reading through the comments. Allan has put me at ease - now It's time to go lurk on other threads. There's so much to learn, so much to do!     -Rides away on a Derpy-faced Halla.-

[Lolomlas]

I would be happy with more romance options for straight men. But I'm perfectly happy with Cassandra and Josephine. For me it was always Cass who would be my first romance.

[ElitePinecone]

I'm prepared to be destroyed by the Iron Bull. Wreck me, please!

oh god

[Allan Schumacher]

Great post overall but I wish you hadn't said this one. Not because of the options for different groups etc, I don't care too much about it. But I thought that the point of the characters are to fit the story, not to be some kind of social commentary. 

 

Personally I didn't like how the romances ended up being but I thought the reason was that the team did not compromise their vision for the characters to please the audience. If what you're saying is true and not just some attempt to reduce the amount of "privilege" posts, then there is a whole new set of considerations to make.

 

It isn't a social commentary.  But by the same token, nothing exists in a social or cultural vacuum.  I'm also speaking of my personal perspective on the situation, since I don't actually write any of the characters.

 

However, if we were to make a game and go "Hey we have 5 straight women to romance and that's it" it'd still behoove us to examine why it is that we made those decisions.

 

Part of the problem with relying exclusively on "how does it fit the story" is that stuff like that creates the imbalance that makes people upset in the first place.  I'm innately less aware of LGBT representation in other media, or people of colour and so forth.  I'm at a place now, however, where I notice it a lot more.  And I do think it provides a richer game experience to boot.

[Master Race]

As a straight male i don't have much of a problem with the news. Obviously i would have preferred Vivienne because more options is always fun but since my first inquisitor will be bixsexual anyway in tribute to Oberyn Martell there is still some more options.

 

I might get hate for this but i think if the two male straight romance options were as "attractive" (and i say that knowing full well it is opinion based) as Leliana and Morrigan from DA:O that there would not be as much complaining about the options. I've seen a lot of complaining on other forums about Cassandra's look, not as much Josephine which most seem to like but still more dislike then i remember Morrigan and Leliana getting looks wise.

 

That is just my opinion though. At the end of the day i just want to play DA:I and i'm satisfied with the romance options for subplots in my overall gaming experience.

[Karim_A]

As I go through the thread I want to point out (since I see this coming up a lot).  You have just as many romance options as a straight man as you did in both DAO and DA2.

 

 

I, to be frank, do not.  More on that below.

 

This is about as literal of a definition of privilege as I think there can be.  The idea that straight men are so often blind to the advantages they get is telling.  I hope, at the very least, it improves your ability to see things from the lens of a different person going forward.

 

 

No, but if the story we create is going to be unequal, we're going to look at it from the greater picture rather than a single game.  Which, unfortunately, means that I think if we're going to give a group extra romance options, it's unlikely to be straight males because they have a history of receiving such content.  This, of course, overlooks the straight males that do not have issues playing other genders/sexualities in the game, whom likely aren't that distraught about this news at all.

 

Equality is not "all games always have the equal amount of romance options."  Equality is "The entirety of gaming in aggregate has reasonably equivalent representation."  That is, a situation where if our game had our breakdown, people wouldn't care because they're still getting their share elsewhere.  It's why I get upset at the term "representation" because in an individual game, straight men (of which I am one) being absent is not reflective of systemic representation issues.  Straight men are in all forms of media, with a variety of depictions as well (i.e. they aren't stereotyped).

 

I can understand that you're disappointed, and that it being a new feeling is a shock.  I consider this a good thing because I think it's very useful tool for your own personal growth.  That "ugh" feeling.  Next time some jerk on a different forum says "whatever straight men should be catered to because <reasons>," I personally ask you to take the moment to chime in to that person and say "I don't think so... it's a pretty crappy feeling to be left out."

 

 

 

Speaking more generally, as I may have hinted towards... if there's a group that I'd be most willing to "short change" (or better stated, since only one group is really benefiting here, I'd be most unwilling to focus on) it'd be the straight male group because within pop culture (games, movies, etc) they are already the beneficiaries of so much content.  So I do not consider it the same level of "inequality" to have them get less options than a different group, as opposed to those other groups.

 

While I fully expect it to be seen as empty words (since for all the talk of trying to focus more on LGBT representation, lesbians and gay men receive less than straight people), I do consider their cries for representation to have a much more solid grounding than some guys who, for maybe the first time in their gaming life, have to deal with the reality that sometimes not everything is going to fall their way.

 

I actually don't feel it's necessary for all our games to have precisely the same amount of options for all because sometimes a story/narrative may make sense, and in the case of DAI the alternative would be simply not doing that content instead, which is still unfortunate to anyone that would like that content.  I do, however, personally feel a bias towards giving straight male gamers the bonus at this time because of their lengthy track record of receiving the most focus and content.

 

So yes, I actually do feel that gay men and lesbians have a touch more reason to be upset... though if a straight man feels upset I won't begrudge them that feeling.  I do hope, however, that they can step back and realize the big picture regarding their disappointment and can better empathize with people that are not like themselves going forward.

 

Thread reopened.  Be excellent to each other.

 

Where I can understand where you are coming from and what you are saying its still a weird thing to say as it comes down to (over simplifying) "You are the one who out of everyone else should be 'punished' this time, because of how society has been structured and that fact that our industry focusing on you made you feel this way' which seems a bit mean. It should not be your focus to punish anyone based on the past and the structure of society.

 

Yes you say we got the same amount as DA:2, though I guess I was under the impression that everything in DA:I would be bigger and better and when 8 romances were announced I thought that everyone would have a lot more. I suggest you focus in the future on giving everyone more rather than taking away from one group, You must hurt like me because I hurt before is a bit childish to be honest. 

[Dessalines]

First, they did state the game had romance options than previous games, so did kinda imply that they would be more options for each sexuality. You guys did slowly back away from that as the months went by. First, it was not all Bioware games but only Dragon Age Games, then the romance options were only from the companions. So giving a group the exact number is a bit misleading. I think that is probably marketing fault, but it is still a bit misleading.

 

Second, will you please stop stating straight males have a bunch of privilege, because I am straight male of color, and I am not seeing a lot of diversity or privilege being shown my way in the gaming community. I still remember when some of you guys(representatives of Bioware) when people complained about not having their family members matching their character's skin color in Origins. Where was your high moral social standing then? I cannot count on how many issues about racial diversity come up on the forums, and instead of defending the person asking for diversity, you close the forum down after the person has been blasted a bunch of times. If sexuality diversity is the only battle you are going to fight that is fine, but don't lecture people on privilege in gaming.

 

Third. For the record, I am married in real life, so don't really care about the romance. She is basically the woman that most people designed the characters to be, including myself.  I design one character that looks like me, and one character that looks like her.

 

Fourth. I love what I have seen of the game. I love DA:O. I love DA:2 too. I hope DA:I is a massive success, but forgive me for thinking that you are drinking your own Kool-Aid when you start preaching about privilege.

[wolfhowwl]

oh god

 

Those of us on the ME side of the forums are already well aware of Excella's proclivities with their strident petitioning for Krogan romances in the next Mass Effect game. 

 

Not that there is anything wrong with that of course.

[Allan Schumacher]

Allan I can't help but feel you are painting all straight men with the same brush. I agree that in the past straight males, mainly whites, have had more privileges than others, that's a given, but I think it goes too far when straight males of the present are compared to straight males of the past. I firmly believe the only way to solve inequality is to have no inequality at all.

I feel that straight males of the present are still very, very much the beneficiaries of copious amounts of catering and focus in popular culture. And it's not like I'm talking ancient history when I make reference to the past. I confidently state this as I'm a member of the group too.

As for equality, the only way to truly be equal with romances is to not have romance content. Because even if we had gone 2/2/2 precisely it'd still mean that some people would be unhappy. Some would be unhappy with the choices they have available to them. Others would be unhappy because they felt one particular group received subpar romances, and so forth.

Further, mandating that we specifically have something like 2/2/2 is also a mandate that is also restrictive in that, for example, it'd prevent us from doing something with say, Solas, which I think is a very interesting aspect of his character.
 

Maybe instead of saying "this group needs to get less" we should all be saying "this group needs to get more." I do realize Solas and Cullen were later additions and initially everyone was in fact equal. I would have done the same thing in your shoes. That is to give an opportunity where more people can have more options. Solas and Cullen just happen to be heterosexual. It's obvious there was no malicious intent when deciding who the LI's would be.

 

It may not have been as clear as I had intended, but I actually did try to reframe it when I said.  That said, it's all a matter of perspective.  In pretty much every case one person's reward can be seen as another person's penalty.
 
 
 

I would just release the LI info at the same time.

 

I, personally, probably wouldn't release them at all.  But I know there's a sizeable group of people that don't agree with me on this perspective.

[steamcamel]

Thanks for the heads-up.

 

I had my eyes set on Vivienne, but it's nice to know in advance and not be dissappointed. I can't wait to meet all the guys in november ^^

[Sambrion]

I wanted to romance Solas, and it's funny, because it kinda reminds me of real life, you get that new person coming, and you don't know much about them, but you kinda just think "damn i like that person" and you kinda wanna try to get close, but then at some point, you realize you can't get closer because that's just how they role, i mean he doesn't mind you sexuality, WHY WOULD YOU MIND HIS?!

[Angloassassin]

-Rides back in on the Derpy Halla- 

 

Why are we getting all up in arms with LI's that we don't even know personally yet? Maybe you'll start having conversations with them, and be like, "Wow, why did I ever worry?" or something along those lines. Sure, that's a best-case-scenario, but still.

 

I've no real interest in Cassandra, Josephine, and Sera - but I'm sure I'll make games for them; because I feel like I haven't truly experienced a game till I've done everything. 

 

Besides, I still can't look at Vivienne the same after my Dad (who's probably played more of the DA franchise than me) asked me who the 'Qunari Girl' was. Snrk. 

 

She shall forever be, 'The Qunari Girl' to me.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

As for equality, the only way to truly be equal with romances is to not have romance content. Because even if we had gone 2/2/2 precisely it'd still mean that some people would be unhappy. Some would be unhappy with the choices they have available to them. Others would be unhappy because they felt one particular group received subpar romances, and so forth.

Further, mandating that we specifically have something like 2/2/2 is also a mandate that is also restrictive in that, for example, it'd prevent us from doing something with say, Solas, which I think is a very interesting aspect of his character.

I don't believe not liking your choices makes them unequal. Equal is having the same amount of choices with a relative amount of content. Not personally liking them is just an unfortunate situation for an individual.

 

While you wouldn't be able to do that specific thing with Solas, it would free up resources to do any amount of new things with the existing romances or friendship paths. There are other ways that could be folded back in to make the game better. It might be losing out in one place, but it could be a gain somewhere else. The great thing is that everyone would get the same chance at enjoying the use of that extra content, especially if it went into creating more friendship path content. When the resources can't be evenly distributed for romances, I think it would be great if it could be seriously considered how character relationships could be expanded outside of romantic relationships.

[seraphymon]

I am really quite ... shocked at what I am hearing from Allan.  I mean.. its not good.  I am so disappointed with Vivi not being the last romance option. It was like a good balance.  I hated how Leliana wasnt, and this news just made it worse.  However. to hear that if he or they were to short-change groups it would be straight males just to teach them a lesson or because they have been catered to is the most insulting thing I have ever heard from bioware reps.  You are labeling us because of past men.  I really do not think that straight males are being catered to in today's world. Today's world is much more accepting. But to punish us with those reasons is showing a very bad side to you. We aren't all the same. 

 

I agree that if anyone has a better right to be truly upset, it would be the gay/lesbian people. I mean, with those beliefs I am not sure I want to support Bioware anymore, no matter how good the game is. I mean I even wanted to possibly work for Bioware in the future, but with people like this... It really makes me reconsider.

[JIC]

Holy freakin Hades, I can hardly believe it, but it turns out I got every, I mean EVERY option I wanted - Bull, Cullen and Blackwall. I lost my hope on Blackwall almost entirely and I was already quite happy to get 2 out of 3, but here he is. Wow. So that's what it feels like. Awesome, especially after getting the short end of the stick in ME3.

Thanks for making my day, Bioware.

[Ceoldoren]

I am really quite ... shocked at what I am hearing from Allan.  I mean.. its not good.  I am so disappointed with Vivi not being the last romance option. It was like a good balance.  I hated how Leliana wasnt, and this news just made it worse.  However. to hear that if he or they were to short-change groups it would be straight males just to teach them a lesson or because they have been catered to is the most insulting thing I have ever heard from bioware reps.  You are labeling us because of past men.  I really do not think that straight males are being catered to in today's world. Today's world is much more accepting. But to punish us with those reasons is showing a very bad side to you. We aren't all the same. 

 

I agree that if anyone has a better right to be truly upset, it would be the gay/lesbian people. I mean, with those beliefs I am not sure I want to support Bioware anymore, no matter how good the game is. I mean I even wanted to possibly work for Bioware in the future, but with people like this... It really makes me reconsider.

Just because you don't realize that the world caters to you doesn't mean it's not true. You are still very much the target demographic for pretty much everything whether you notice it or not. 

[seahorse]

Crosspostin'

 

 

I am super mad about the romances because my inquisitor is going to have such a hard time deciding whether she should hit on Josephine or Sera.  ;_;

[Lucidae]

Wow @ all the men who seem to not recognize all of the advantages they've gotten in their lives for being their gender. But what I say below is more important.....

Every player of this game has been given 8 romance options. You as the player then choose wether or not you are going to limit yourself further after the initial 8. For example, I could potentially romance all options with different saves/characters, but as a person who enjoys playing straight female characters I've now limited myself down to 4. After that, I don't find 2 of the 4 aesthetically pleasing so now I have limited myself to 2 options. So really, people need to chill out. Bioware isn't limiting your options, YOU ARE. I am also limiting my own options, but I can CHOOSE to open up my options at any time. Personally because of this game's interesting cast of characters I'm interested in playing a heterosexual male character just to see the stories of them unfold. BAM. Just opened up my options as a player even further.

[Allan Schumacher]

Where I can understand where you are coming from and what you are saying its still a weird thing to say as it comes down to (over simplifying) "You are the one who out of everyone else should be 'punished' this time, because of how society has been structured and that fact that our industry focusing on you made you feel this way' which seems a bit mean. It should not be your focus to punish anyone based on the past and the structure of society.

 

Yes you say we got the same amount as DA:2, though I guess I was under the impression that everything in DA:I would be bigger and better and when 8 romances were announced I thought that everyone would have a lot more. I suggest you focus in the future on giving everyone more rather than taking away from one group, You must hurt like me because I hurt before is a bit childish to be honest. 

 

I'm not saying that straight gamers should be punished.  I'm saying that if I were to grant an additional perk to a group, I'd feel an inclination to give that to someone that doesn't typically get that extra piece of content.

 

But like I said, one person's reward can always be interpreted by another as a different person's punishment.

[Char]

I am really quite ... shocked at what I am hearing from Allan.  I mean.. its not good.  I am so disappointed with Vivi not being the last romance option. It was like a good balance.  I hated how Leliana wasnt, and this news just made it worse.  However. to hear that if he or they were to short-change groups it would be straight males just to teach them a lesson or because they have been catered to is the most insulting thing I have ever heard from bioware reps.  You are labeling us because of past men.  I really do not think that straight males are being catered to in today's world. Today's world is much more accepting. But to punish us with those reasons is showing a very bad side to you. We aren't all the same. 
 
I agree that if anyone has a better right to be truly upset, it would be the gay/lesbian people. I mean, with those beliefs I am not sure I want to support Bioware anymore, no matter how good the game is. I mean I even wanted to possibly work for Bioware in the future, but with people like this... It really makes me reconsider.

What you think happens, and what actually happens from a global perspective, are unlikely to be exactly the same thing. Part of the straight male privilege is the ability to ignore that privilege, because how can it feel like privilege when it's normal to you?
If SM gamers were being shorted (they aren't, they have exactly the same number of options as gay male and lesbian female gamers) based on solely the past it would indeed be wrong. However, the historical privilege enjoyed by SM demographics continues today. Efforts to bring other demographics up to that level have certainly lessened the gap but it is by no means closed.

This is not an insult in any way. People cannot help the demographic they are born into. What they can say is "I recognise that in general I have more options open to me, therefore I will back initiatives to provide extra options for demographics other than my own".

[Maria Caliban]

Those of us on the ME side of the forums are already well aware of Excella's proclivities with their strident petitioning for Krogan romances in the next Mass Effect game. 
 
Not that there is anything wrong with that of course.

If that's what they want, it's good they have it.

[Chanda]

Holy freakin Hades, I can hardly believe it, but it turns out I got every, I mean EVERY option I wanted - Bull, Cullen and Blackwall. I lost my hope on Blackwall almost entirely and I was already quite happy to get 2 out of 3, but here he is. Wow. So that's what it feels like. Awesome, especially after getting the short end of the stick in ME3.

Thanks for making my day, Bioware.

 

I know, right!? The only thing that would have made it better for me is to have Varric, too. But it's okay, he's in love with Bianca and I understand that. I am thrilled with all eight choices that I do have. I plan to play as all the races, and both genders so that way I can romance everyone possible.

[Naktis]

Told ya long time ago that Viviene wont be romance option , coz of her position like chained to her , also had same thought about blackwall...so now coz he is made romance option its makes me a bit sad,,,

 

 

all serious things aside THE real reason we cant romance Viviene is.......coz she is black :D:D:D:D:D OMG thats racist bioware juuuuust kiddin.

[Maria Caliban]

Should women have more rights in the Western world than men because they were treated badly before?

Should men be the slaves of women to make up for the past?

Backwards logic.

More inequality doesn't fix past inequality.

I'm not sure having two fewer love interests than straight women and the exact same number as gay women is equal to the enslavement of all men.

[Willowhugger]

On my end, I'd like to state how much I respect Bioware's commitment to diversity, representation, and reflection of both the ethnic as well as sexual multiplicity of society. Don't ever change guys and I want you to know, from a straight-male of a decidedly un-diverse background, I appreciate all you've done and am behind you 100%.

 

I will say, however, I think there's a single thing to remember for everyone.

 

 

Some of the controversy here reminds me of Tara's death in the penultimate season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It drew heavy criticism from gay and lesbian groups due to the fact that Joss Whedon was ending one of the few positive homosexual couples on television (indeed, the only at that time) in violence. Which fit numerous negative stereotypes about what happens to gay couples.

 

There was a caveat, though.

 

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a action horror comedy program. Joss Whedon stated that he'd be treated gay characters differently from the rest of the characters on the show for the sake of representation and that it was only "right" to treat them like any other--which is to say, "die and be miserable."

 

Joss showed he wasn't prejudiced about the whole thing by immediately introducing a new lesbian love interest for the character of Willow (my namesake for these forums). However, it still left a lot of people unhappy and dissatisfied. Do you know why? Because regardless of the social context, plenty of people were also angry fangirls and boys.

 

It's a hard thing to do but it becomes necessary to satisfy "nerd entitlement" from both our own feelings as well the larger social justice element. Wanting Cassandra and Cullen to be bisexual love interests has nothing to do with social justice or representation. It exists because gay, bi, and some straight fans want them to be love interests.

 

One of my favorite posts on this subject was a lesbian fan admitting how frustrating it was there was a lesbian, not bi, female character and she couldn't be happy about it because she hated her personality. It was an honest moment that geeks are some of the most entitled people on Earth regarding our properties but we can sometimes get confused over what's really behind the attitude.

 

There is a pressing need for more diversity in video games in terms of representing ethnicites, gender, and orientation. Bioware can't carry the entirety of the load themselves and if you're going to critcize someone, criticize 99% of the game industry as opposed to the 1% who is listening--even if, again, the 1% are listening. That doesn't mean fans don't have a right to complain but they SHOULD examine their own feelings on the subject.

 

As my wife told me years ago. "Is it REALLY such a major deal that Tali and Garrus are love interests?"