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Should women have more rights in the Western world than men because they were treated badly before?
Should men be the slaves of women to make up for the past?
Backwards logic.
More inequality doesn't fix past inequality.
More inequality doesn't fix past inequality.
Truth.
One game with women having more romance option does not make the world more inequal.
Truth.
Second, will you please stop stating straight males have a bunch of privilege, because I am straight male of color, and I am not seeing a lot of diversity or privilege being shown my way in the gaming community. I still remember when some of you guys(representatives of Bioware) when people complained about not having their family members matching their character's skin color in Origins. Where was your high moral social standing then? I cannot count on how many issues about racial diversity come up on the forums, and instead of defending the person asking for diversity, you close the forum down after the person has been blasted a bunch of times. If sexuality diversity is the only battle you are going to fight that is fine, but don't lecture people on privilege in gaming.
I don't think we had a moral high standing with the colour of skin of your parents and your Warden. I think it's an excellent example of white privilege, in that case. I remember seeing people calling us out on it and going "Oh.... huh... I didn't even realize." I don't remember the reaction (I didn't interact much on the forums, but in all honesty I wouldn't be surprised if I did respond defensively if called out at the time) of BioWare representatives at the time. I know in DA2, an effort was made to actually make sure that the Hawke family was consistent with their skin colour.
And yes, I admit that I am still learning and the degrees of interserctional privileges I still need to improve upon. My perspective is that your concern is more along the axis of racial privilege as opposed to privilege based on sexual orientation. Am I mistaken in this impression?
Please feel free to point me to threads regarding racial diversity where we've closed them down, so I am better aware of them so as to not make that mistake in the past, and so that I can pass them along to Jessica and the rest of the online staff to ensure that further transgressions don't occur in this regard. Feel free to PM me or respond her, which ever you would prefer. I'm unaware of any, but that could simply be my being blind to it and would prefer to be more aware of it going forward.
I love there are so many options for romance for both male and female PC. And most of them are humans.
Should women have more rights in the Western world than men because they were treated badly before?
Should men be the slaves of women to make up for the past?
Backwards logic.
More inequality doesn't fix past inequality.
I would say it would have been better to do it all at once or not at all, and not announce ANY romances prior to release. Either that or simply not do romances, which gets tempting at times like these. Either way, I'm glad it's finally done, rather than leaving people to set their hearts on characters they haven't met yet only to be disappointed.
No romances? What madness is this?! ;D
Buuuut anyway... Thank you, Mike, for announcing all of the love interests and explaining things in such a detailed manner. It really helps in deciding which gender & race I will pick for my 1st playthrough.
No Vivienne romance is a serious disappointment. What I fear is that the writers, once again, had no idea how to develop an interesting black character. The lack of romance for her is really just disinterest in actually spending time to work on a good black character. In truth, its a form unconscious racism.
I was hoping to have a true black male/black female romance in a AAA-cRPG. Instead, my gut says Vivienne is going to be a boring "strong black woman" 2-dimensional character. To me, this is the easy way out for the writers. They avoid potential controversy and claims of racism by making a over-the-top, "perfectionist"-type black person. Meanwhile, non-black characters get love interests, personality quirks, more interesting dialogue, etc.
Hoping to be proven wrong and eat my words. Hoping that there is actually a very interesting story arc for Vivienne to make up for having no romance.
It is a disappointment. But we've not even heard her speak yet, we know next to nothing about her character other than a general over view. If you still feel this after playing the game feel free to rant about it. But you know nothing at the moment.
I feel like there is a biased when a game is being developed depending on the developer groups. With ME developers, it's very male centric in term of setting and LI with most of the romance geared toward straight males (Lesbians benefited as well because of straight male) and an all bisexual female alien race. In Dragon Age, most of the powerful rulers are females, high dragons being females, and mysterious and powerful characters like Flemmeth are also females, straight females also have more options comparing to other groups. At the end of the day, I'm just glad the distribution for DA is a lot better than ME since even when they focus more on females, they still give other groups attentions. It takes 3 games to give the gay players 2 options and the bi option is inferior for the male one than toward female players.
No Vivienne romance is a serious disappointment. What I fear is that the writers, once again, had no idea how to develop an interesting black character. The lack of romance for her is really just disinterest in actually spending time to work on a good black character. In truth, its a form of unconscious racism.
Or she's married.
Or has a lover already.
Or has no desire to mix business and pleasure.
Or she's not sexually attracted to the Inquisitor.
You have a right to be disappointed at not having a black love interest. But that's a LOT of assumptions.
If there being gay and straight LIs is a way for Bioware to remind gamers that sexuality isn't fluid because you want it to be, maybe Vivienne will have a reminder some people just aren't going to like you that way.
We've heard Vivienne speak. First in the Crestwood demo, and then when she tore Mary Kirby a new one.
I am kind of torn really.
On one hand, I'd love to hear Vivienne give a reason why she doesn't want to date the Warden. In KOTOR2, Mira upended fanboy expectations (beautiful redhead) by saying, "No, actually I just don't find you attractive. You're too old for me and kind of creepy."
You couldn't change that opinion.
On the other, Vivienne doesn't need to explain ANYTHING.
I don't believe not liking your choices makes them unequal. Equal is having the same amount of choices with a relative amount of content. Not personally liking them is just an unfortunate situation for an individual.
While you wouldn't be able to do that specific thing with Solas, it would free up resources to do any amount of new things with the existing romances or friendship paths. There are other ways that could be folded back in to make the game better. It might be losing out in one place, but it could be a gain somewhere else. The great thing is that everyone would get the same chance at enjoying the use of that extra content, especially if it went into creating more friendship path content. When the resources can't be evenly distributed for romances, I think it would be great if it could be seriously considered how character relationships could be expanded outside of romantic relationships.
I love how suddenly the idea that this is somehow a punishment is being thrown around.
Me too, the best part is that almost everyone that uses this word is someone that wanted to romance someone else and is very upset. Yeah, two romance options for straight male, lesbian and gay characters is, clearly, a punishment 
. A punishment is no romance at all, and is what we are going to win if we keep this attitude. I don't say we have to applaud everything they do related to the romances, but we haven't played the game and we are saying pretty harsh things...
You can romance all the character, just because you can't do it as a male doesn't mean you can't do it at all. It's really that awful to play as a female character?
No Vivienne romance is a serious disappointment. What I fear is that the writers, once again, had no idea how to develop an interesting black character. The lack of romance for her is really just disinterest in actually spending time to work on a good black character. In truth, its a form unconscious racism.
So, a character is only interesting if you can bang her/him. I agree, friendship is overrated.
Should women have more rights in the Western world than men because they were treated badly before?
Should men be the slaves of women to make up for the past?
Backwards logic.
More inequality doesn't fix past inequality.
This is absurd logic. Look at most games that come out, and there is usually a male protagonist, and more than that, more often than not there is some presumed straight romance tied to the plot. Bioware occaisonally giving you less romances is not making you slaves, or inequality fixing inequality.
What you are asking for in the broader scheme of things is to not acknowledge that there are tons of games now that have solely you in mind as the protagonist, the fact that you come a little less off in optional content a game a year is not meeting inequality with inequality.
Equality would be a grizzled dude trying to save his husband the whole game 3 times a year, and Women protagonists in half of all major single player games, who sometimes have a plot or two about non-erotic lesbian girlfriends. That is what equality is like. Since Equality is a long way off. Bioware occaisonally favoring minority fans is not answering inequality with inequality. It is taking inequality and offering slightly more than usual to make up for the teams and teams of things that are not Equal.
I am really quite ... shocked at what I am hearing from Allan. I mean.. its not good. I am so disappointed with Vivi not being the last romance option. It was like a good balance. I hated how Leliana wasnt, and this news just made it worse. However. to hear that if he or they were to short-change groups it would be straight males just to teach them a lesson or because they have been catered to is the most insulting thing I have ever heard from bioware reps. You are labeling us because of past men. I really do not think that straight males are being catered to in today's world. Today's world is much more accepting. But to punish us with those reasons is showing a very bad side to you. We aren't all the same.
I agree that if anyone has a better right to be truly upset, it would be the gay/lesbian people. I mean, with those beliefs I am not sure I want to support Bioware anymore, no matter how good the game is. I mean I even wanted to possibly work for Bioware in the future, but with people like this... It really makes me reconsider.
I'm not sure having two fewer love interests than straight women and the exact same number as gay women is equal to the enslavement of all men.
I wish I still had some likes left for this one too.
I'm sure somewhere on the internet (probably here too, but I'm only skim-reading most posts), there will be people complaining that straight men are the worst off with these LIs, and the feminist/gay agenda (probably moulded into one) has victimised them, despite having the same amount as gay people.
Edit: And simply not being top dog for once. After all, there's still 101 male power fantasy games to turn to for comfort.
I love how men are like "Oh who cares about romance in games, I just want the action, the experience, the excitement, the gritty battles and lore.." and then they are disappointed how there are not enough romance options for them. I understand some of you, especially here on the forums, do love to engage in them, and are actively participating in discussions about them, but on the grand scale of casuals who buy the game...nope.
I love how men are like "Oh who cares about romance in games, I just want the action, the experience, the excitement, the gritty battles and lore.." and then they are disappointed how there are not enough romance options for them. I understand some of you, especially here on the forums, do love to engage in them, and are actively participating in discussions about them, but on the grand scale of casuals who buy the game...nope.
I don't think the romances are any more important than other kinds of storytelling in games.
However, Bioware more or less has a monopoly on this kind of storytelling.
It's not anywhere else in gaming in the Western World.
The fact Vivienne isn't a LI makes me wonder if she's so fixated on her hidden agenda she's not willing to let anyone stop her. Hopefully she doesn't pull a fast one and betray us.
I expect her to be the Morrigan of the group and have a hidden agenda.
But yes, a lot of people jump to a lot of assumptions.
Bioware didn't make Mira but it's just possible Vivienne has reasons she doesn't want to date the Inquisitor.
Like Aveline, for example.
Or she's married.
Or has a lover already.
Or has no desire to mix business and pleasure.
Or she's not sexually attracted to the Inquisitor.
Wouldn't that depend on why you don't like the choice? Some don't like the idea of Dorian because they feel he is flamboyant and stereotypical. They resisted the very notion of him being a gay LI on the grounds that many were predicting he would be based on how he looked. By the counterpoint there are plenty of gay men that are also "Woohoo!" to him being a gay love interest.
There was a whole conversation on flamboyancy/Butchness being used as a stereotype card in the romance 4.0 thread if any of you are interested.
As far as romances, different strokes for different folks and LGBT are no different. the only real issue is that Iron Bull's sexuality has been emphasized more often than his other traits in the media. But LGBT politics are...complicated to say the least. Even one supposedly small group will have differing opinions. Being respectful can be hard.
As I go through the thread I want to point out (since I see this coming up a lot). You have just as many romance options as a straight man as you did in both DAO and DA2.
I, to be frank, do not. More on that below.
This is about as literal of a definition of privilege as I think there can be. The idea that straight men are so often blind to the advantages they get is telling. I hope, at the very least, it improves your ability to see things from the lens of a different person going forward.
No, but if the story we create is going to be unequal, we're going to look at it from the greater picture rather than a single game. Which, unfortunately, means that I think if we're going to give a group extra romance options, it's unlikely to be straight males because they have a history of receiving such content. This, of course, overlooks the straight males that do not have issues playing other genders/sexualities in the game, whom likely aren't that distraught about this news at all.
Equality is not "all games always have the equal amount of romance options." Equality is "The entirety of gaming in aggregate has reasonably equivalent representation." That is, a situation where if our game had our breakdown, people wouldn't care because they're still getting their share elsewhere. It's why I get upset at the term "representation" because in an individual game, straight men (of which I am one) being absent is not reflective of systemic representation issues. Straight men are in all forms of media, with a variety of depictions as well (i.e. they aren't stereotyped).
I can understand that you're disappointed, and that it being a new feeling is a shock. I consider this a good thing because I think it's very useful tool for your own personal growth. That "ugh" feeling. Next time some jerk on a different forum says "whatever straight men should be catered to because <reasons>," I personally ask you to take the moment to chime in to that person and say "I don't think so... it's a pretty crappy feeling to be left out."
Speaking more generally, as I may have hinted towards... if there's a group that I'd be most willing to "short change" (or better stated, since only one group is really benefiting here, I'd be most unwilling to focus on) it'd be the straight male group because within pop culture (games, movies, etc) they are already the beneficiaries of so much content. So I do not consider it the same level of "inequality" to have them get less options than a different group, as opposed to those other groups.
While I fully expect it to be seen as empty words (since for all the talk of trying to focus more on LGBT representation, lesbians and gay men receive less than straight people), I do consider their cries for representation to have a much more solid grounding than some guys who, for maybe the first time in their gaming life, have to deal with the reality that sometimes not everything is going to fall their way.
I actually don't feel it's necessary for all our games to have precisely the same amount of options for all because sometimes a story/narrative may make sense, and in the case of DAI the alternative would be simply not doing that content instead, which is still unfortunate to anyone that would like that content. I do, however, personally feel a bias towards giving straight male gamers the bonus at this time because of their lengthy track record of receiving the most focus and content.
So yes, I actually do feel that gay men and lesbians have a touch more reason to be upset... though if a straight man feels upset I won't begrudge them that feeling. I do hope, however, that they can step back and realize the big picture regarding their disappointment and can better empathize with people that are not like themselves going forward.
Thread reopened. Be excellent to each other.
Initially I did not mind at all about the romance options, never cared for them and when I look at the romanceable character list, I was like "Eh, we straight men still have two options so okay."
Then I saw this post and I just had to respond to it because it is frankly, nonsensical, especially the straight male privilege thing.
I am from Southeast Asia and in that area, there is no such thing as "straight male privilege". There is "work your arse off, get a good education and a good job" privilege. As a man here, you have to do the trio to make it or break it in life. If you are a woman, you have the option of not doing the three things, getting married to some rich old man and having a good life.
Even when it comes to homosexuality, Southeast Asian nations are far more accommodating for female homosexuality as opposed to male homosexuality. Many nations here allow female homosexuality but penalize male homosexuality with caning, fines and prison sentence (Singapore and Malaysia do this). So yep, you can be a lesbian just fine but gay, LOL nope.
As such, realize that the whole "male privilege" and "straight male privilege" thing does not apply to the rest of the men of the world.
In fact, I have never even heard of something called "straight male privilege" until I went to USA for my undergraduate degree 4 years ago. When I first heard it, I was like "Wow ! Privileges ! I and the rest of my friends, both male and female, have had to work our arses off to just get here to study."
I also find it odd that you mention that straight men have to be content for being "short-changed". Most of us here are not the ones who direct these media and publish them. Most of us if not all of us here do not actively hunt down gays or lesbians or hate them. Most of us are just minding our business, living our lives in peace and play games for the fun of it. Most of us if not all of us do not play video games to feel some form of superiority or to oppress anyone else. Above all else, most of us do not have male ancestors who in their past, went out of their way to create problems.
Cheers. 
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