3344 réponses à ce sujet

[MCG]

I am planning on Vivienne being perhaps one of my most used party members, hopefully I'll get close enough to her to prevent her from doing anything too drastic.

[HiroVoid]

I love how men are like "Oh who cares about romance in games, I just want the action, the experience, the excitement, the gritty battles and lore.." and then they are disappointed how there are not enough romance options for them. I understand some of you, especially here on the forums, do love to engage in them, and are actively participating in discussions about them, but on the grand scale of casuals who buy the game...nope.

Depends on if they're the same people.  I certainly know trolls who would do that though.

[Shadow Fox]

I'm prepared to be destroyed by the Iron Bull. Wreck me, please!

*coughs*

[seraphymon]

What you think happens, and what actually happens from a global perspective, are unlikely to be exactly the same thing. Part of the straight male privilege is the ability to ignore that privilege, because how can it feel like privilege when it's normal to you?
If SM gamers were being shorted (they aren't, they have exactly the same number of options as gay male and lesbian female gamers) based on solely the past it would indeed be wrong. However, the historical privilege enjoyed by SM demographics continues today. Efforts to bring other demographics up to that level have certainly lessened the gap but it is by no means closed.

This is not an insult in any way. People cannot help the demographic they are born into. What they can say is "I recognise that in general I have more options open to me, therefore I will back initiatives to provide extra options for demographics other than my own".

I am quite aware of what happens in a global perspective. I know that it is much more male or straight male focused.  SM gamers are being shortened. (along with  gays/lesbians)  Hell in DA2 we were again. Males had 2-4.  females had all options. The historical privilege is still around. True and may exist in some games. Thats at the fault of those developers, like the ME series. It sucks but then that is a series I dont play.  But to twist it around for some sort of couterbalance isnt right either. No one deserves to be catered to or screwed over. More inequality doesnt make it right.

[Willowhugger]

Yes, these could be the justifications. But again, I see it as a cop-out. Why *her* and not any of the other female characters?

Maybe they'll have an Aveline-type thing where you get to play match-maker. If so, I'm gonna hook her up with a brother -- if one is anywhere to be found.

 

Not saying you don't have a right to be cross. Just saying that it could just be how the character was developed and there's perhaps reasons for it.

Art has a way of going in certain ways.

 

Vivienne is black, a mage, and a power-hungry froo-froo Orlaisian who doesn't want to date the Inquisitor.

 

Change one of these and you change them all.

 

And that might include their concept for her.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Wouldn't that depend on why you don't like the choice? Some don't like the idea of Dorian because they feel he is flamboyant and stereotypical. They resisted the very notion of him being a gay LI on the grounds that many were predicting he would be based on how he looked. By the counterpoint there are plenty of gay men that are also "Woohoo!" to him being a gay love interest.

If someone thinks that our lesbian romance options are downright disrespectful (as some have told me because we baited them with Cassandra), or if they feel that Iron Bull is just another promiscuous pan/bi character, are the complaints about representation and fairness that these people bring forward invalidated because other people feel it's fine?
 
It's much more likely that Solas' writing budget would still be allocated to Solas, whether it be romance or otherwise. I'm skeptical that it would lead to much (if any) improvements on other romance content for other characters.

If the romances are promblematic in ways like that, I think it's a bigger issue. I mean, are we saying it's impossible for Bioware to make a game that's not outright offensive to someone? I think those arguments can be legitimate.. or not. It's hard to say where the line should be drawn. I think it's ridiculous that people are calling Dorian "effeminate", personally. I can understand why some would say Iron Bull is a promiscuous bisexual, but it's on the marketing, since we haven't seen him. I think that these sort of things need to be examined and dealt with individually, though, if they hold water. They're, to me, apart from unbalanced options. There can be reasons why a romance is offensive or hurtful, but that's not really a reason to unbalance romances. It's a reason to look at why that happened. 

 

The last part kind of confuses me. I assume if these romances were added because of the added time, everyone got extra time? And something else besides romance must have been done with other characters besides Cullen/Solas? I mean, if it can't be folded into others, am I right to assume they weren't the only ones that had extra resources to work with? Couldn't something similar be done with their resources as was done with the others, then? I don't know if everyone has the same amount of content and some is skimmed off for romances, or romance is it's own budget apart from individual character budgets.

 

I just think friendship content for everyone is a much better use of "extra" resources than creating content only for specific people, though. In that case, everyone gets an equal amount of romance content and everyone is able to benefit from the extra content added to friendship paths. It seems like an overall more fair approach to dealing with bulk resources. If the extra content was allotted to everyone after the time expansion and the extra for Cullen/Solas went into romance instead of friendship, that's already kind of a let down. 

[Tamyn]

I am so happy to have Solas and Cullen. I remember a time when I couldn't believe that women would actually get two male options in DA:O and David blew me away when he revealed that we would. It was very exciting and I am thankful for continuing to get options.

[hotdogbsg]

Obviously I'm looking at it too simplistically but at the end of the day everyone has the exact same number of romance options: Eight.

 

Personally as a straight male that's where my preference for a character lies and it will be my first play-through. As it is I'm very happy with the two LI's available (although admittidley surprised two was the final total)

 

I would also heartily recommend players break out of their comfort zone with different play-through's, I intend to play a female Inquisitor and a gay male in following game runs having done so in past BW games and had great fun while doing so.

[Ceoldoren]

I am so happy to have Solas and Cullen. I remember a time when I couldn't believe that women would actually get two male options in DA:O and David blew me away when he revealed that we would. It was very exciting and I am thankful for continuing to get options.

It's nice to see someone else get favored for once.

[Spaghetti_Ninja]

I love how men are like "Oh who cares about romance in games, I just want the action, the experience, the excitement, the gritty battles and lore.." and then they are disappointed how there are not enough romance options for them.

 

Yes, how strange that men, who make up 50% of the world population, seem to have different viewpoints among themselves. It's actually almost like they are not all the same.

[MCG]

In Dragon Age 4 I want straight females to have one option and straight men, gay men and lesbians to have 3 options each. Seriously I'm so peeved about Blackwall.

[Willowhugger]

Yeah, it's an assumption but I do think a lot of this controversy is fanboys and fangirls unable to separate a real issue (lack of representation) with their geek desires.

[blussi]

Shame, no double bara romance with iron bull and blackwall.. oh well, I guess I'll have to stick with bull.

[Willowhugger]

 

If the romances are promblematic in ways like that, I think it's a bigger issue. I mean, are we saying it's impossible for Bioware to make a game that's not outright offensive to someone?

 

True art is offensive.

 

Otherwise it's not art.

Entertainment can also be completely nonoffensive but then it's usually just bland.

 

Dragon's Dogma, for example, is probably completely inoffensive but I can't say it contains anything memorable either like Templars and Mages.

[Ceoldoren]

True art is offensive.

 

Otherwise it's not art.

Entertainment can also be completely nonoffensive but then it's usually just bland.

 

Dragon's Dogma, for example, is probably completely inoffensive but I can't say it contains anything memorable either like Templars and Mages.

Hey now...

I loved Dragon Dogma :c

[The Bear Muse]

This is also the first time a mage and a rogue aren't available to straight males, one is a warrior and the other a political advisor.

 

It's not just straight men who get a different cross-section of choices this time around.

 

Homosexual women get a rogue and a political adviser.

 

Straight women get three warriors (including the restricted political adviser) and a mage (who is heavily restricted).

 

Homosexual men get the most standard distribution when it comes to class breakdowns for the monosexual players, as they get an unrestricted warrior and a mage.

 

The composition of the main cast of characters has changed, so naturally, the same went for all groups. Isolating one set of the changes proves little.

[elkston]

[quote name="Mentxi" post="17263908" timestamp="1409818974"]
?
 
 
So, a character is only interesting if you can bang her/him. I agree, friendship is overrated.[/quote]
 
[/quote]

Friendships are not overrated. Look, I just want to see a sexy and *feminine* black woman in a fantasy cRPG. I'm tired of a-sexual black characters in entertainment and media. We're not just these perfect, disposable side-kicks. We are real people with real lives.

[Willowhugger]

Hey now...

I loved Dragon Dogma :c

 

Sorry!
 

But another thing about art is the viewer carries their own preconceptions and cultural baggage.

 

One person sees Lando Calrissian as fitting a stereotype of black men hitting on white women and being a token character.

 

Another person sees George Lucas inviting black people to play in the universe and letting them know they're in a post-race setting where they're welcome.

[Natarsi]

I, personally, probably wouldn't release them at all.  But I know there's a sizeable group of people that don't agree with me on this perspective.

 

I know I'm in the minority, but... This.

I really would like this.

Release the party company info, release info about some of the important persons you are going to meet without too much spoiler, but dont.post.who's.a.LIs.

If there are even going to be any anymore.

 

I really wanted to go into DA:I as unspoilered as possible, but felt the need to fangirl and choose to visit a board to meet fellow fans. I barelly got to click into the character section and was already spoilered through thread titles. Even if it hadn't been for the titles in the character threads the main topic in most threads was about the romances, once revealed.

 

Remembering back onto DA:O and DA2 I managed to get into the game without knowing who's an LI and it was a very pleasant surprise to discover who is and who isn't avaible. It was like unwrapping a precious gift. -^^- I liked that.

 

Also. LI's so totally shouldn't be the focus of the game. -.-

[MCG]

I like Dorian visually but he comes across like Anders in the way he's somebody who will scream at me every time I act against mages. That leaves me with Iron Bull who the thought of 'being' with makes me uncomfortable given his size and demeanour, plus I would wanna be with someone who could perhaps have syphilis from the amount of sex they've had. Blackwall and Cullen are just normal to me, now I'm cut off from that ridiculously so.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

True art is offensive.

 

Otherwise it's not art.

Entertainment can also be completely nonoffensive but then it's usually just bland.

 

Dragon's Dogma, for example, is probably completely inoffensive but I can't say it contains anything memorable either like Templars and Mages.

Representing political turmoil isn't the same as representing real life groups in offensive ways just out of general ignorance. That's not art, it's just ignorance.

[N7 sniper]

That's fine bioware because my inquisitor will just have a crush on Vivienne from a distance. So ha!

[seraphymon]

At no point did I say that I would short-change straight males to "teach them a lesson." I'm saying that if I had a preference to allocate some extra content, I'd prefer to give it to people that don't normally get this type of focus.

To draw an analogy, I'm more inclined to go through extra effort to get food for a person that rarely gets food, than for someone that typically already has enough food to sustain themselves.

I'm sorry that you feel this is unreasonable and that it sours your look on our company and so forth, but if it's what you feel you need to do then by all means do what you feel is best for yourself.

I believe you did use the word shortchange a certain group.. That clearly is a negative type of way.  I understand the analogy, but i feel that the motives are not the same. One is saving a life. This case is just based on inequality. Two wrongs don't make a right. I liked the step forward towards catering to more sexual preferences. The DA team specifically, as long as it is more realistic and not like DA2 everyone is bi stuff. But to fully admit to creating more inequality just to counterbalance... thats like saying "oh this guy killed my family so I should be able to kill his, innocent or not. " 

 

Granted I am pissed and disappointed as I was counting on VIvI to be the last romance since I hated the MP news and the 8 slot news and dont care for cassandra or josep.  It would have been nice to see a black woman also be a romance for once.. but I knew that this just didnt go my way this time. No ones fault. But to now here this reason and philosophy.... It's hard to form words with how stunned I am.

[Natarsi]

On my end, I'd like to state how much I respect Bioware's commitment to diversity, representation, and reflection of both the ethnic as well as sexual multiplicity of society. Don't ever change guys and I want you to know, from a straight-male of a decidedly un-diverse background, I appreciate all you've done and am behind you 100%.

 

I will say, however, I think there's a single thing to remember for everyone.

 

 

Some of the controversy here reminds me of Tara's death in the penultimate season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer. It drew heavy criticism from gay and lesbian groups due to the fact that Joss Whedon was ending one of the few positive homosexual couples on television (indeed, the only at that time) in violence. Which fit numerous negative stereotypes about what happens to gay couples.

 

There was a caveat, though.

 

Buffy the Vampire Slayer is a action horror comedy program. Joss Whedon stated that he'd be treated gay characters differently from the rest of the characters on the show for the sake of representation and that it was only "right" to treat them like any other--which is to say, "die and be miserable."

 

Joss showed he wasn't prejudiced about the whole thing by immediately introducing a new lesbian love interest for the character of Willow (my namesake for these forums). However, it still left a lot of people unhappy and dissatisfied. Do you know why? Because regardless of the social context, plenty of people were also angry fangirls and boys.

 

It's a hard thing to do but it becomes necessary to satisfy "nerd entitlement" from both our own feelings as well the larger social justice element. Wanting Cassandra and Cullen to be bisexual love interests has nothing to do with social justice or representation. It exists because gay, bi, and some straight fans want them to be love interests.

 

One of my favorite posts on this subject was a lesbian fan admitting how frustrating it was there was a lesbian, not bi, female character and she couldn't be happy about it because she hated her personality. It was an honest moment that geeks are some of the most entitled people on Earth regarding our properties but we can sometimes get confused over what's really behind the attitude.

 

There is a pressing need for more diversity in video games in terms of representing ethnicites, gender, and orientation. Bioware can't carry the entirety of the load themselves and if you're going to critcize someone, criticize 99% of the game industry as opposed to the 1% who is listening--even if, again, the 1% are listening. That doesn't mean fans don't have a right to complain but they SHOULD examine their own feelings on the subject.

 

As my wife told me years ago. "Is it REALLY such a major deal that Tali and Garrus are love interests?"

Damn. The first time EVER I'm out of likes and it had to be now.

*likes anyway*

Fully approve.

[Allan Schumacher]

Initially I did not mind at all about the romance options, never cared for them and when I look at the romanceable character list, I was like "Eh, we straight men still have two options so okay."
 
Then I saw this post and I just had to respond to it because it is frankly, nonsensical, especially the straight male privilege thing.
 
I am from Southeast Asia and in that area, there is no such thing as "straight male privilege". There is "work your arse off, get a good education and a good job" privilege. As a man here, you have to do the trio to make it or break it in life. If you are a woman, you have the option of not doing the three things, getting married to some rich old man and having a good life.

In most cases here, straight white men still have to work hard themselves. The idea of privilege isn't that life is easy street. People place far too much focus on the financial aspect when they hear the term privilege. Here's an article, though written in context of the US so there may be some regional differences, regarding heterosexual privilege: http://itspronounced...xual-privilege/

Note that it refers to relatively straight forward things that people may take for granted, such as openly expressing your affection towards a loved one without judgement. If I kiss a man.

With respect to how much privileges and rights a woman has in your area, I'm not as informed and there could be a whole host of other intersectional aspects that I'm completely unaware of. The idea that they just need to marry some rich old man and have a good life, however, is something that some people think happens en masse even here. I'd need to see more information to form a genuine opinion on the matter.


As you state, though:
 

Even when it comes to homosexuality, Southeast Asian nations are far more accommodating for female homosexuality as opposed to male homosexuality. Many nations here allow female homosexuality but penalize male homosexuality with caning, fines and prison sentence (Singapore and Malaysia do this). So yep, you can be a lesbian just fine but gay, LOL nope.

It sounds like your life is a bit easier if you're a straight man rather than a gay man. Which is an example of straight privilege. By being straight, you exempt yourself from being caned, fines, or imprisoned. So, all things being equal it sounds like a man in your region would likely face less challenges in life if he was straight rather than gay.

Do you not agree? Because it seems like that is what you are saying.

 

I also find it odd that you mention that straight men have to be content for being "short-changed". Most of us here are not the ones who direct these media and publish them. Most of us if not all of us here do not actively hunt down gays or lesbians or hate them. Most of us are just minding our business, living our lives in peace and play games for the fun of it. Most of us if not all of us do not play video games to feel some form of superiority or to oppress anyone else. Above all else, most of us do not have male ancestors who in their past, went out of their way to create problems.

Do you disagree with the notion that, in general, entertainment is built with a tendency to have straight content often to the outright omission of gay or lesbian content?



It's important to note that even though I think straight men have privilege in much of the world, that does not mean that straight men don't have to work hard, nor does it mean that the life of a straight man cannot be worse than the life of a woman or a gay man.