3344 réponses à ce sujet

[daveliam]

This is all I'll say about straight, white, and male privilege.  It enrages me that people suggest that they are not real concepts.  And I say that as a white male, who happens to receive a **** ton of privilege because of it. 

 

Look, when I first learned about white and male privilege in graduate school I was equally pissed by the concept.  I felt that it didn't account for my personal story.  I grew up very poor and had to work my ass off to get where I am today (comfortably middle class) and I was proud of that and I felt that the concept of privilege somehow devalued my actions.  And I'm about as liberal, left, PC as it gets, but this was still my gut reaction.

 

It wasn't until I sat in a discussion about privilege with a diverse group of people and we all shared out the ways in which we felt we weren't privileged that it all kind of clicked for me.  I now look at the idea of privilege as separate continua, one for sexuality, one for race, one for gender, etc.  And on each of them, you fall somewhere along the continua.  So when I was hearing the stories from women who talked about gender privilege, I realized that I was receiving these subtle benefits from being male.  The same when I was listening to people of color.  The fact that I was white did affect my life in ways that likely made it easier.  Then I shared about the ways in which being gay made me recognize straight privilege.  And it all came together for me.  If some straight people could not recognize that they were receiving benefits from society for being straight, then it was totally possible that I wasn't recognizing the benefits that I was receiving.  And its very possible to receive privilege in some ways and not in others.  A straight woman of color still receives heterosexual privilege.  A gay white man still receives white and male privilege.

 

Anyway, this whole thing has privilege written all over it.  The majority is being forced to recognize that they are used to receiving "privileges" (in this case, more romance content) and they aren't happy about it.  It's very telling that I've seen numerous straight guys say words like "punished", even though they are now receiving the same amount of options as gay/lesbian people.  Does that mean that we've been being punished for years?  It should according to your logic.

 

Ugh.  The whole point of this isn't that privilege is a bad thing.  It's not people's fault that they live in a society that gives these "bonuses" to people with their characteristics.  But it also doesn't mean that you can dismiss the idea of privilege just because it makes you uncomfortable.  Just my $.02, though.  Now I'm off to work and, hopefully, off the boards for a while.  Cheers!

[Yinello]

So come on guys (you sane ones, you know who you are). Share your fave LI's and who you plan to romance first, let the flamers rage by themselves.

 

Iron Bull and Josie! No idea who to romance first. IB might distract me too much on the mission. o.o

[prosthetic soul]

I believe you are reading too far into his tone. If any harshness was given it was due to the severity of the posts he was responding too, not meant to insault or degrade SWMs. I hate to say it, but this argument has become redundent. I am seeing no new evidence on your side of the debate, and believe we are both wasting time. File the complaint that you are undoubtedly going to file and wash your hands of the incedent so we can continue posting on topic.

I wasn't going to file an official complaint. 

[nici2412]

As I go through the thread I want to point out (since I see this coming up a lot).  You have just as many romance options as a straight man as you did in both DAO and DA2.

 

 

I, to be frank, do not.  More on that below.

 

This is about as literal of a definition of privilege as I think there can be.  The idea that straight men are so often blind to the advantages they get is telling.  I hope, at the very least, it improves your ability to see things from the lens of a different person going forward.

 

 

No, but if the story we create is going to be unequal, we're going to look at it from the greater picture rather than a single game.  Which, unfortunately, means that I think if we're going to give a group extra romance options, it's unlikely to be straight males because they have a history of receiving such content.  This, of course, overlooks the straight males that do not have issues playing other genders/sexualities in the game, whom likely aren't that distraught about this news at all.

 

Equality is not "all games always have the equal amount of romance options."  Equality is "The entirety of gaming in aggregate has reasonably equivalent representation."  That is, a situation where if our game had our breakdown, people wouldn't care because they're still getting their share elsewhere.  It's why I get upset at the term "representation" because in an individual game, straight men (of which I am one) being absent is not reflective of systemic representation issues.  Straight men are in all forms of media, with a variety of depictions as well (i.e. they aren't stereotyped).

 

I can understand that you're disappointed, and that it being a new feeling is a shock.  I consider this a good thing because I think it's very useful tool for your own personal growth.  That "ugh" feeling.  Next time some jerk on a different forum says "whatever straight men should be catered to because <reasons>," I personally ask you to take the moment to chime in to that person and say "I don't think so... it's a pretty crappy feeling to be left out."

 

 

 

Speaking more generally, as I may have hinted towards... if there's a group that I'd be most willing to "short change" (or better stated, since only one group is really benefiting here, I'd be most unwilling to focus on) it'd be the straight male group because within pop culture (games, movies, etc) they are already the beneficiaries of so much content.  So I do not consider it the same level of "inequality" to have them get less options than a different group, as opposed to those other groups.

 

While I fully expect it to be seen as empty words (since for all the talk of trying to focus more on LGBT representation, lesbians and gay men receive less than straight people), I do consider their cries for representation to have a much more solid grounding than some guys who, for maybe the first time in their gaming life, have to deal with the reality that sometimes not everything is going to fall their way.

 

I actually don't feel it's necessary for all our games to have precisely the same amount of options for all because sometimes a story/narrative may make sense, and in the case of DAI the alternative would be simply not doing that content instead, which is still unfortunate to anyone that would like that content.  I do, however, personally feel a bias towards giving straight male gamers the bonus at this time because of their lengthy track record of receiving the most focus and content.

 

So yes, I actually do feel that gay men and lesbians have a touch more reason to be upset... though if a straight man feels upset I won't begrudge them that feeling.  I do hope, however, that they can step back and realize the big picture regarding their disappointment and can better empathize with people that are not like themselves going forward.

 

Thread reopened.  Be excellent to each other.

Is this just your personal opinion or is this the official view from bioware?

[wright1978]

Why didn't they use the extra year to make the existing romances better and deeper, rather than giving one particular group a massive increase in choice?

[Ajna]

First playthrough, Dalish Mage romancing Solas, second, Female Rogue Cadash romancing Blackwall, after that I'm undecided.  Qunari mage with IB and Human Rogue with Cullen maybe?  *shrug*

 

Edit:  Wanted to mention that I will also romance everyone in time, especially Dorian.

[just.somebody2]

Iron Bull and Josie! No idea who to romance first. IB might distract me too much on the mission. o.o

 It's a good thing autumn/winter is when they release the game. It'd be hard to fan myself and pay attention to combat, at the same time, when IB is flexing in his battle moves.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

One troll/flamer leaves, replaced by another...

 

*sigh*

 

So come on guys (you sane ones, you know who you are). Share your fave LI's and who you plan to romance first, let the flamers rage by themselves.

 

I dunno... I usually play as a Female Human Warrior first but I've not got one planned in DAI, still debating as to which of my 11 planned playthroughs I intend to start with. As a Gamer I'm spoilt for choice because I have no issues playing any sex/race or orientation. Partially tempted to go with my Elven Female Mage whom I intend to romance Cullen with Although I might go with my Human Male Warrior whom I will look to romance Cassandra with. Or it could be my Human Female Rogue whom I shall look to romance Josephine with.

 

As a Model of a Scientist Salarian once said... "So many variables..."   

[vutha_ixen]

I wasn't going to file an official complaint. 

 

Then why all the hooplah!? If it wasn't offensive enough for a complaint then how could it have been offensive enough for an hour long argument on a forum! I am sorry, but this cannot continue. I have decided to do what the rational people on this thread did a long time ago and stop replying to these posts.

 

I am sorry everyone for having taken this long to stop. Please forgive me for filling your form space with argumentitive posts.

[Angloassassin]

(psst, no prob bae)

 

*Le Snippity Snip*

 

Yeah, Oghren said something like "If It's underfoot, I'm going to eat it" Because it kept bothering him. 

 

And Maker forgive me - but if we got to ask her about eating Schmooples as our Cadash Inquisitors - I might pick it every time, even on my diplomatic and nice playthroughs.

Spoiler

As Tallis put it: "It tastes of Forgotten Aspirations".

 

Party Banter from both games made me ROFL - Alistair/Wynn. Oghren/Alistair. Alistair/Sten.... Wait, I'm sensing a pattern - why is all the Alistair dialogue hilarious?  From mentioning he would draw the line at "Putting on a dress and dancing the Merigold" to the "I'm going to tell everyone all of what you said about them to stage a coup - then I shall become group leader! Muahahah"

 

I think I like/Love Alistair too much - He's probably why I find Varric and his humor so amusing.

[just.somebody2]

I dunno... I usually play as a Female Human Warrior first but I've not got one planned in DAI, still debating as to which of my 11 planned playthroughs I intend to start with. As a Gamer I'm spoilt for choice because I have no issues playing any sex/race or orientation. Partially tempted to go with my Elven Female Mage whom I intend to romance Cullen with Although I might go with my Human Male Warrior whom I will look to romance Cassandra with. Or it could be my Human Female Rogue whom I shall look to romance Josephine with.

 

As a Model of a Scientist Salarian once said... "So many variables..."   

 holy fk, 11 games of about 150 hours each makes 1650 hours (or more if you're a completionist).

 

I don't even know if i can manage 5 PT's

 

 

You have great determination.

[Angloassassin]

*Snip*

 

You win a cookie for your name.

"He's quick, He's Funny, He makes me lots of money, Lichenstien!"

[vutha_ixen]

Is this just your personal opinion or is this the official view from bioware?

 

I hope you are aware that a post with a question like that only makes it more likely that they will start to forsake romances all together because of possible political backlash. They gave us extra content. If you don't want to take advantage of it for personal reasons then please do not spoil it for those of you who will.

 

On a side not I have to agree with him. We get a lot of love, I don't see the harm in sharing some of it.

[prosthetic soul]

Then why all the hooplah!? If it wasn't offensive enough for a complaint then how could it have been offensive enough for an hour long argument on a forum! I am sorry, but this cannot continue. I have decided to do what the rational people on this thread did a long time ago and stop replying to these posts.

 

I am sorry everyone for having taken this long to stop. Please forgive me for filling your form space with argumentitive posts.

Maybe because I'd like to address it with him and instead of going behind his back like a petty person?

[Nohvarr]

So back on subject, I'm guessing I'll romance Josie as a Human male rogue, and Cassandra as a Qunari male mage. Should prove interesting.

[Ajna]

I hope you are aware that a post with a question like that only makes it more likely that they will start to forsake romances all together because of possible political backlash. They gave us extra content. If you don't want to take advantage of it for personal reasons then please do not spoil it for those of you who will.

 

On a side not I have to agree with him. We get a lot of love, I don't see the harm in sharing some of it.

You're great, I like you.

 

And then in turn, a lot of us straight ladies would like to share some of it with the LGBT community in the future.

[LOLandStuff]

@Chronoid

 

Everyone is out there to get you.

[just.somebody2]

Yeah, Oghren said something like "If It's underfoot, I'm going to eat it" Because it kept bothering him. 

 

And Maker forgive me - but if we got to ask her about eating Schmooples as our Cadash Inquisitors - I might pick it every time, even on my diplomatic and nice playthroughs.

Spoiler

As Tallis put it: "It tastes of Forgotten Aspirations".

 

Party Banter from both games made me ROFL - Alistair/Wynn. Oghren/Alistair. Alistair/Sten.... Wait, I'm sensing a pattern - why is all the Alistair dialogue hilarious?  From mentioning he would draw the line at "Putting on a dress and dancing the Merigold" to the "I'm going to tell everyone all of what you said about them to stage a coup - then I shall become group leader! Muahahah"

 

I think I like/Love Alistair too much - He's probably why I find Varric and his humor so amusing.

 

Fk, I WILL write about this someday when I get a better grasp of the charaters, IT SHALL NOT ESCAPE ME. Poor Schmooples. At least he'll get a protective hug from Leli.

 

 

Spoiler

Hope Tallis makes a comeback. OOOOOOH and what if we meet Sten and she's there too? That'd be cool.

 

 

 

Alistair is a frikin DORK-NERD-TRASH. i love him and his silly banter. All of the banter was  good, really, not just with him. Zev/Wynne was fun too (wanting to rest his head on her bosom). A lot were snarky as heck.

 

I bet the snark-masters in DAI are gonna make themselves known pretty fast. I'll need to make rotations for errbody to miss out less (youtube is still my best friend for unencountered banter)

 

And we better be able to put on a real dress and dance the Merigold at the Ball. *snort*

[MCG]

3/4 of the stories people say they're going to play they likely won't be doing.

[prosthetic soul]

@Chronoid

 

Everyone is out there to get you.

And people called me the troll.

[vutha_ixen]

3/4 of the stories people say they're going to play they likely won't be doing.

 

True. I like Sera now, but maybe while playing my female inquisitor I will find myself more charmed by a different LI.

[Black Jimmy]

One troll/flamer leaves, replaced by another...

 

*sigh*

 

So come on guys (you sane ones, you know who you are). Share your fave LI's and who you plan to romance first, let the flamers rage by themselves.

Cassandra Pentaghast. Dat bone structure! Even decided to roleplay my character for the first time, a charming older gent. I hope you get to choose what your position is in the Circle :/ I want to be a sexy teacher!

 

Honestly, I don't get why Straight White Males are getting all upset about getting the shaft. The two extra romances are Straight White Males, duh!

 

And people called me the troll.

With that mustache, why are you surprised?

[just.somebody2]

3/4 of the stories people say they're going to play they likely won't be doing.

You might actually be right, but it's fun to imagine anyway.

[Zarathiel]

It's something that I don't want to spoil since it is a part of her story.  It's something that, when I learned about it, made me go "Okay that makes sense."  At least for me.  I'm sure some will disagree.

 

Note that this doesn't mean someone can't be disappointed because they found her attractive, or that specifically because she's a prominent woman of colour, it sucks to not be able to romance her specifically because our games haven't historically had anyone like her at all.

 

While she's physically gorgeous, it's her personality (or what we know of it so far) that got me attached. The idea of an LI I could scheme with for power was too tempting a lure, it seems.

 

Morrigan's my favorite romance in a Bioware game so far, but I'd rather be in on the scheming than possibly (probably) one of the people being manipulated.

 

Something like Dark Side Bastila from KotOR, but more order and a little less evil, and with Dragon Age level romance content (i.e. much more substantial), would be my ideal romance.

 

Miranda could have fit this, which is why I usually choose her for my self-insert Shepard, but there was WAY too much focus on her daddy issues, and then she wasn't even a squadmate in 3, and what time she got, just rehashed her daddy issues and loyalty quest from 2. I was disappointed then, too, though that got eclipsed by larger problems I had with the game.

 

As to the current argument going on in the thread, I'm against the idea of adding extra options to previously denied groups if the sole reason is for the sake of making up for past treatment. I think the reaction to Allan's comments about male privilege has proved that it only breeds more anger and resentment.

 

Adding extra romance options on top of an already even spread should be informed only by what the writers feel is right for the characters who are getting the content. Let creativity determine who gets the extra options, and let the chips fall where they may, which I believe is how we got our current selection of LIs, anyway.

 

Of course, ideally, there would be an equal number of choices even after extra resources are distributed. But, I also don't want to constrain the writers to fit all the romance stories they write into a grid. I'll be satisfied so long as everyone gets options, and the character I want to romance most is available.

[prosthetic soul]

Cassandra Pentaghast. Dat bone structure! Even decided to roleplay my character for the first time, a charming older gent. I hope you get to choose what your position is in the Circle :/ I want to be a sexy teacher!

 

Honestly, I don't get why Straight White Males are getting all upset about getting the shaft. The two extra romances are Straight White Males, duh!

 

With that mustache, why are you surprised?

It's not a mustache, it's a GOATEE