3344 réponses à ce sujet

[Feuerwerke]

I don't worry that much about gender stereotypes with m/m relationships from Bioware, because I honestly think this is the one area they've actually done pretty well with. There are other issues I think need to be seriously considered (promiscuous bisexuals, bisexual males always preferring women, "noble do-gooders" always being straight), but the male options we've gotten have been very different in body types and general level of masculinity. I don't believe we've ever had a truly feminine m/m LI. Zevran and Fenris had smaller body types, but they weren't effeminate in personality. Iron Bull is extremely masculine, to an almost absurd level. Cortez was quite masculine, definitely nothing particularly feminine about him. Kaidan and Anders are high average on the masculinity scale, I'd say. The options we've had are pretty varied, so this specific issue isn't something I'd worry overly about.  

 

...I completely disagree re; promiscuous bisexuals. Every LI in DA2 is bi, and none of them besides Isabela are promiscuous. Leliana in DA:O isn't particularly promiscuous either. It's really only Isabela and Zevran. It'd be a problem if it was all of them, but it's not even a majority. And if you have an issue with Isabela in particular, then well. I have an issue with you. I'm bisexual and female myself, and also promiscuous. I've never seen that in any sort of entertainment in a way I could identify with before, since it's always like, say, Maureen in RENT where they're also a cheater and generally a horrible person. Isabela isn't shamed by the narrative for her choices. It's pretty much "this is who she is and that is completely okay" and that just means so much to me. (Sure Aveline can be pretty awful to her about it but the narrative pretty much says that both of them are wrong for being shitty to each other by the way their tensions are resolved). So yeah no don't you dare try to tell me that there's something wrong with the ONE fictional character I've ever genuinely seen myself in re; sexuality.

[ebby0110]

Awww no Vivienne as love interest SADNESS!!!!!!!! Guess my inquisitor is ridin solo unless someone proves worth the time...hope they have a great personality cause no one else is attractive to me.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

...I completely disagree re; promiscuous bisexuals. Every LI in DA2 is bi, and none of them besides Isabela are promiscuous. Leliana in DA:O isn't particularly promiscuous either. It's really only Isabela and Zevran. It'd be a problem if it was all of them, but it's not even a majority. And if you have an issue with Isabela in particular, then well. I have an issue with you. I'm bisexual and female myself, and also promiscuous. I've never seen that in any sort of entertainment in a way I could identify with before, since it's always like, say, Maureen in RENT where they're also a cheater and generally a horrible person. Isabela isn't shamed by the narrative for her choices. It's pretty much "this is who she is and that is completely okay" and that just means so much to me. (Sure Aveline can be pretty awful to her about it but the narrative pretty much says that both of them are wrong for being shitty to each other by the way their tensions are resolved). So yeah no don't you dare try to tell me that there's something wrong with the ONE fictional character I've ever genuinely seen myself in re; sexuality.

Zevran, Isabela and Iron Bull.

 

The problem isn't that individuals are promiscuous. I don't have a problem with you or Isabela being so. I'm not saying I'm particularly chaste, myself. The problem is that it's always bisexuals that are promiscuous, when a character is designated as such, and that this is something media as a whole perpetuates. The problem isn't with promiscuous bisexuals on an individual level, it's a problem when it's overly represented inside that demographic. Promiscuous characters in DA have always been bisexual characters (Zevran, Isabela, Iron Bull, even Anders in his Awakening days) and noble/shining knight type characters have always been straight (Alistair, Sebastian, Cassandra, Cullen). The problem is when a certain type of character is always or almost always associated with a specific real world group.

[sandalisthemaker]

Considering what I'm pointing out here is that the majority of a group that can romance a certain LI vocally dislikes her, whereas the majority of a group that is excluded from romancing her would absolutely love to, the generalization is perfectly valid.

 

Cass should've been bi, in short. That way the handful of guys who do like her can still have her but then so can the girls who want her. I've been heartbroken since the straight Cassandra announcement honestly.

 

A lot of the Cassandra hate ( that doesn't come from trolls ) is due to the fact that she does not conform to the typical women we see in videogames.  Bioware has taken an incredible step to include women with different types of beauty in this game. Cassandra is beautiful. I'd be willing to bet that if there was a real life woman with an uncanny resemblance to Cassandra, many of these same guys ragging on her would probably melt into a puddle of goo if she came up to them and started talking to them.  

 

She's just so different from what is typical, in looks and personality, and some people don't like change.  That being said, there are many guys that do appreciate her beauty.  I do, and I'm not attracted to women, but I can say that she is very beautiful.  She'd make a killer model, along with Vivienne.

 

In regards to your disappointment, I sympathize.  I was initially very upset once all the LIs were revealed yesterday, but now I have come to terms with BioWare's decision.   I hope that you can eventually be happy with the options that you do have. 

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

A lot of the Cassandra hate ( that doesn't come from trolls ) is due to the fact that she does not conform to the typical women we see in videogames.  Bioware has taken an incredible step to include women with different types of beauty in this game. Cassandra is beautiful. I'd be willing to bet that if there was a real life woman with an uncanny resemblance to Cassandra, many of these same guys ragging on her would probably melt into a puddle of goo if she came up to them and started talking to them.  

 

She's just so different from what is typical, in looks and personality, and some people don't like change.  That being said, there are many guys that do appreciate her beauty.  I do, and I'm not attracted to women, but I can say that she is very beautiful.  She'd make a killer model, along with Vivienne.

 

In regards to your disappointment, I sympathize.  I was initially very upset once all the LIs were revealed yesterday, but now I have come to terms with BioWare's decision.   I hope that you can eventually be happy with the options that you do have. 

 

 

Someone posted such a  picture actually. No I don't remember who it was in the picture.

[Willowhugger]

I'm a bit nervous to see a discussion happening about Anita.  She's a polarizing person and I'm not sure we, as a community, are ready for a discussion about her so shortly after the meltdowns that happened yesterday and today.

 

I'm dropping it. I think the only relevance is that so much vitriol is thrown about someone who may or may not have anything valid to say about feminism in gaming that it kind of goes to show there is something deeply rotten in the state of Video Game Land.

And not just Mother Brain.

[Feuerwerke]

Zevran, Isabela and Iron Bull.

 

The problem isn't that individuals are promiscuous. I don't have a problem with you or Isabela being so. I'm not saying I'm particularly chaste, myself. The problem is that it's always bisexuals that are promiscuous, when a character is designated as such, and that this is something media as a whole perpetuates. The problem isn't with promiscuous bisexuals on an individual level, it's a problem when it's overly represented inside that demographic. Promiscuous characters in DA have always been bisexual characters (Zevran, Isabela, Iron Bull, even Anders in his Awakening days) and noble/shining knight type characters have always been straight (Alistair, Sebastian, Cassandra, Cullen). The problem is when a certain type of character is always or almost always associated with a specific real world group.

 

Even including Iron Bull that's only 3 out of 8 so still not even half. I will agree that it's problematic that the promiscuous bisexual stereotype is perpetuated, but it's also a matter of how it's written when it comes up. None of the Dragon Age LIs who are bi and promiscuous are written as bad people for being that way. They aren't portrayed as cheaters or liars and the game narrative doesn't tell you that they're wrong for being the way they are. Sure, it'd be nice if they'd give us a promiscuous straight LI, or even a promiscuous lesbian LI (since the stereotype for gay men tends to also be promiscuity, but for lesbians it tends to not be since people can't handle the idea of women being sexual for themselves and not for men), but them including a few promiscuous bi LIs who are still written as respectable people whose choices are considered valid in the narrative is a good thing.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

I'm a bit nervous to see a discussion happening about Anita.  She's a polarizing person and I'm not sure we, as a community, are ready for a discussion about her so shortly after the meltdowns that happened yesterday and today.

 

I doubt this is the appropriate forum for that type of discussion either

[mikeymoonshine]

I'm dropping it. I think the only relevance is that so much vitriol is thrown about someone who may or may not have anything valid to say about feminism in gaming that it kind of goes to show there is something deeply rotten in the state of Video Game Land.

And not just Mother Brain.

 

I'll drop it too unless anyone wishes to PM me but I really don't think trolls go to show anything about any community. 

[Willowhugger]

 

 

People rebut her because they feel that their community is being unfairly represented. Whether it is or not they have a right to do so just like she has a right to express her opinion.

 

I have no real wish to open this can of worms and will be dropping the subject. My general point remains that the abuse and nastiness displayed by detractors did more to damage the perception of gamers in my eyes than any amount of cherry-picking.

[Willowhugger]

I'll drop it too unless anyone wishes to PM me but I really don't think trolls go to show anything about any community. 

Ditto.

Will stop.

[CrimsonN7]

Considering what I'm pointing out here is that the majority of a group that can romance a certain LI vocally dislikes her, whereas the majority of a group that is excluded from romancing her would absolutely love to, the generalization is perfectly valid.

 

Cass should've been bi, in short. That way the handful of guys who do like her can still have her but then so can the girls who want her. I've been heartbroken since the straight Cassandra announcement honestly.

 

I sympathize with you not being able to romance Cass as a fem inquisitor believe me I'd love to have her as a bi option. She's incredibly attractive to me, looks and personality wise plus warrior woman le sigh. 

 

Most of the guys on here who want to romance Cass are more than happy with how she looks, as for the others who bash her for looking too butch meh their loss, if they don't like Cass they can always romance the femme type Josie. They have options.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

...I completely disagree re; promiscuous bisexuals. Every LI in DA2 is bi, and none of them besides Isabela are promiscuous. Leliana in DA:O isn't particularly promiscuous either. It's really only Isabela and Zevran. It'd be a problem if it was all of them, but it's not even a majority. And if you have an issue with Isabela in particular, then well. I have an issue with you. I'm bisexual and female myself, and also promiscuous. I've never seen that in any sort of entertainment in a way I could identify with before, since it's always like, say, Maureen in RENT where they're also a cheater and generally a horrible person. Isabela isn't shamed by the narrative for her choices. It's pretty much "this is who she is and that is completely okay" and that just means so much to me. (Sure Aveline can be pretty awful to her about it but the narrative pretty much says that both of them are wrong for being shitty to each other by the way their tensions are resolved). So yeah no don't you dare try to tell me that there's something wrong with the ONE fictional character I've ever genuinely seen myself in re; sexuality.

I have no proble with promiscuous bisexuals. Or promiscuous pansexuals, or promiscuous people in general. But my problem is RE: Ad Mortem, in that promiscuous people are ONLY bisexual (in terms of DA). Why can't we have promiscuous straight people? Or promiscuous gay people? The overarching problem in terms of this trope is that it's also too common to the point of absurdity, to the point where bisexual people are ONLY thought of as promiscuous. That's why it'd be nice to shake that up. Other things? I'd like to see non-straight family people, overtly flirty to EVERYONE straight people! Mix it up more!

 

In short, I have no problems with people who are promiscuous, bisexual or not, but the latter does exist and it'd be nice to see them in game more rather than diverting immediately to the former.

[drummerchick]

Would Oghren be considered promiscuous, or just a lecher?  

He may not have that many actual partners (that we know of), but it's certainly not for lack of trying.  

[TheJediSaint]

Would Oghren be considered promiscuous, or just a lecher?  

He may not have that many actual partners (that we know of), but it's certainly not for lack of trying.  

He's a lecher.  He's one of the lechiest lechers who ever leched.  

[Lieutenant Kurin]

1st, I responded to one person quite fast without reading through the rest, and quoting people through editing is hard, so enjoy doubling down on Kurin.

C'mon Kurin, don't you know that any gay guys who are masculine are just "straight acting" in order to take advantage of straight privilege due to their internalized homophobia......

 

On to Dorian:  I feel like he's going to be a really good representation.  I have a feeling based on some of Gaider's comments that he's really very proud of the story that developed for Dorian and that it's one that he's wanted to tell for a while.  I can't imagine that he will be reduced to a stereotype.  I think he's going to be a very well developed and fully realized person.  I'm sure there might be a cringe-worthy moment here and there, but in general, I'm not worried. 

 

You just might want to keep him and Vivienne away from each other.  I feel like she might be an amp for his sassiness.  She is a sassy diva herself. 

The only thing which has me in knots is the #TeamYOLO thing, but I'd happily concede that I know next to nothing about his personality and I'd be very happy for him to roll up my expectations in a ball and then proceed to vigorously stomp on them. It's mostly been other forumites talking about his sass, but no matter where the arrow comes from, it still hits you know? Funny story, I once had this friend (who was a jackass, looking back), who actually rated people based on their masculinity, I got rated down after I came out to him. Whatever.

 

I don't worry that much about gender stereotypes with m/m relationships from Bioware, because I honestly think this is the one area they've actually done pretty well with. There are other issues I think need to be seriously considered (promiscuous bisexuals, bisexual males always preferring women, "noble do-gooders" always being straight), but the male options we've gotten have been very different in body types and general level of masculinity. I don't believe we've ever had a truly feminine m/m LI. Zevran and Fenris had smaller body types, but they weren't effeminate in personality. Iron Bull is extremely masculine, to an almost absurd level. Cortez was quite masculine, definitely nothing particularly feminine about him. Kaidan and Anders are high average on the masculinity scale, I'd say. The options we've had are pretty varied, so this specific issue isn't something I'd worry overly about.  

Kaidan and Anders certainly are high, but considering that Anders says specifically he's all about the inside, and Kaidan being into someone he's already cared about for a long time, it's more than fair to say they've been portrayed as 'panromantic' rather than actually attracted to men. As for 'gay' rather than bi, the only one is Cortez, and his problems extend far beyond any tropes. Seriously, the emotional 180 after the moment at the memorial wall literally scared me. I know the underlying reasons, but I'd rather he be not so segmented and not be a romance rather than what we got. Overall, BioWare's been great in terms of HAVING LGBT characters, but there have been worrying things to me, and I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

 

Zoe Quinn gets vitriol because she may or may not have slept with gaming journalists to get good reviews. I don't really think this theory has that much evidence  and I don't really care about it anyway but it's not about her views on women. 

 

Anita gets vitriol because she is a con artist who lies constantly. 

Please put back that can of worms. Please. While I get the impulse, and understand the reasoning, this conversation belongs somewhere else.

[HiroVoid]

Considering what I'm pointing out here is that the majority of a group that can romance a certain LI vocally dislikes her, whereas the majority of a group that is excluded from romancing her would absolutely love to, the generalization is perfectly valid.

 

Cass should've been bi, in short. That way the handful of guys who do like her can still have her but then so can the girls who want her. I've been heartbroken since the straight Cassandra announcement honestly.

The majority of the millions of people you're talking about don't post about the game on the internet; let alone that a good bit of those who do post about the game on the internet don't neccesarily talk about the romances specifically.  In short, the people you see posting about the game (whether its on here, tumblr, reddit, etc.) don't represent the majority.

[Nocte ad Mortem]

Kaidan and Anders certainly are high, but considering that Anders says specifically he's all about the inside, and Kaidan being into someone he's already cared about for a long time, it's more than fair to say they've been portrayed as 'panromantic' rather than actually attracted to men. As for 'gay' rather than bi, the only one is Cortez, and his problems extend far beyond any tropes. Seriously, the emotional 180 after the moment at the memorial wall literally scared me. I know the underlying reasons, but I'd rather he be not so segmented and not be a romance rather than what we got. Overall, BioWare's been great in terms of HAVING LGBT characters, but there have been worrying things to me, and I'd be lying if I said otherwise.

Kaidan and Anders still have a sexual attraction to men. They're not asexual. They may be pansexual, but they definitely have a sexual attraction to men. The relationships are pretty clearly sexual in nature. But I agree that many of these options have their own sets of problems. I was talking specifically about masculinity/gender issue concerns. Cortez is the only other actually gay male that I'm aware of as a LI, so it's hard to judge how gay men specifically are going to be represented on the whole when it comes to masculinity. That we're working with only one other character for comparison is, in itself, a bit depressing. 

[IST]

Hello to all.can i ask Allan Schumacher why we cant romance Viv?is it because of story or she have someone or is it something else?Thanks

Maybe she's not down with being swept off her feet?

[Who Knows]

Non-save-import Kaidan calls male Shepard handsome, no? Sounds like evidence he has attraction to men/masculinity.

[Random]

I haven't gotten to the third Mass Effect game yet, but is it possible that he's demisexual and panromantic? 

[Angloassassin]

Non-save-import Kaidan calls male Shepard handsome, no? Sounds like evidence he has attraction to men/masculinity.

 

They vaguely hinted towards it in certain dialogues. Like in ME1 when you talk to him about Jump Zero.

[DisturbedJim83]

1. Misogynists use this as a justification to hate her.

 

2. Having bothered to watch her videos. I don't feel there's anything particularly informative about them other than "lots of games are bad against women" or that justifies their extreme production costs.

But everything that's wrong with the hatred directed at her can be summarized as this, "A guy makes 75,000 from a Kickstarter to make potato salad. He gets cheered by the internet. A woman gets 350K to make a series of webvideos about sexism and is harrassed, threatened with sexual assault, and rebutted daily by people who think she's going to steal their Xbox."

While I as a straight man have no issues with a woman making video's about sexism since it clearly exists(actually broke the jaw of an area manager at a supermarket I worked at when he insulted a friend and female colleague to the point that she burst into tears because he found out she was a lesbian).

 

That being said making potato salad is not generally inflammatory,whereas talking about sexism tends to be quite inflammatory especially in a area that has been historically male dominated given that most men are  not as pro equality as I they tend to get somewhat sore about it. 

[slmisfit]

This post has brightened up my day, if not my week. Thank you.

[Nashimura]

I really hope there is some kind of dialogue to why Cullen is not into Dwarves, Qunari i get... the whole kirkwall thing, but there need to be some justification in game.