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[Darth_Atreyu]

If you are going to apply a racial tone to it and think she needs to be a romance option to serve as a good example for black people then shouldn't you be happy with her regardless as a successful career black woman focused on her career?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not against having Vivienne as a love interest and was thinking that she was going to be one myself and was looking forward to it for a future playthrough, but I figured she serves as a good example on a surface glance (we don't know details of her in the game) as a strong black woman being successful (at least as far as being a mage goes).

Please read my post in it's entirety before you reply.

[Sporothrix]

Honestly, the day romances become just fanservice is the day they should stop writing them. Games are an artistic medium. Within certain limits, the writers and developers should be free to do as they please and evaluated on how well or poorly they do it.

 

That reminds me talks about "artistic integrity!" in regard to ME3 ending.

[ElitePinecone]

Cullen makes some kinda racist comment about dwarves if Oghren is in the party. 

 

Huh, I've never seen this before. Neat.

[Moussey]

Oh.
 
People were writing what they wanted the distribution to be?
 
Making a majority of the cast bisexual again seems risky, given the (hysterical, but loud) reaction last time - and the devs have long professed their preference for the way Inquisition is doing it, with defined sexualities, because from one perspective it does allow them to tell different types of stories.
 
(Something like Dorian's estrangement from his family would never work if he were bisexual; it seems he doesn't want to be forced into a political marriage with a woman and he refuses to hide that part of his life.)

 

 

Yeah, but fans have expressed the idea this violated their suspension of disbelief while others have used it to justify how "their" Merrils and Fenrises aren't bisexual.
Which is ridiculous.
Yeah, you can't romance Sera if you're a dude.

I'll get over it like I'm sure Oz got over Willow.

I know what you mean. That's why I listed Sera, Dorian and Solas as the only ones who should have a singular sexuality, because their preferences actually have something to do with their personal experiences.

For the others perhaps it's also the same but I'm afraid they're putting in more straight stories in A. Characters whose sexualities don't really pertain to who they are as an individual so let's make straight as the default and B. In a world where open sexuality is almost entirely inconsequential

Aside from that it's definitely weird to me how people complained about having additional options for all sexes

[Ajna]

I think it's a bit much to assume that Vivienne is "undeserving of love", please remember that her writer is female and as it happens neither of her companions are romanceable. I think the only person who really knows why Viv isn't romanceable is Mary Kirby.

[Sporothrix]

Sure, it would be easier. But I do not think that's the right solution.

So telling stories of bisexual people is easier than telling stories of white straight dudes?

 

Things you learn every day.

[Who Knows]

It's not like anyone is suggesting that the writers should be legally forced to write differently. Criticism =/= force. The writers are free to do whatever no matter how much they are criticized by people who have no authority over them.

[ElitePinecone]

That reminds me talks about "artistic integrity!" in regard to ME3 ending.

 

It's true, though. Players of games are consumers of art, not co-creators of it. The developers should more or less have freedom to do what they want, and everyone who plays it has the right to criticise that fiercely and vocally. I certainly did, after ME3's ending.

 

Of course I think a reasonable studio should try to make content for all their players, and I'm pretty pleased with what Bioware's done on this front so far, *and* I'd absolutely be the first person up in arms if I ever felt dissatisfied with what they were doing. 

 

There's probably some amount of overlap between providing fair representation and choices and what Bioware's writers want to do anyway - but at the end of the day it is their game, not ours. The only thing we have power over is whether or not we buy it.

[Dark_Rage]

I never was interested to romance Cass but now that i know that Vivienne isn´t romancable, im thinking of it, she maybe fits with my qunari/warrior.

Josephine isn´t really an Option, i prefer taking my LI in the party.

[Ray561]

 

 
I know what you mean. That's why I listed Sera, Dorian and Solas as the only ones who should have a singular sexuality, because their preferences actually have something to do with their personal experiences.

For the others perhaps it's also the same but I'm afraid they're putting in more straight stories in A. Characters whose sexualities don't really pertain to who they are as an individual so let's make straight as the default and B. In a world where open sexuality is almost entirely inconsequential

Aside from that it's definitely weird to me how people complained about having additional options for all sexes

Making every character Bisexual would have made the complaining much worse than it is now heterosexual men are annoyed because heterosexual women have two extra options,

 

giving every other group an exclusive option but us would make it much worse.

 

I'm gonna be honest even I would be a little annoyed by it.

[Moussey]

What I mean is why someone can not be straight for "lore" resons?

Because historically, almost every story ever has been a straight story. Straight stories will never cease to exist in other mediums, but stories about non straight and open sexualities will continue to be hard to come by.

Straight romances still exist since a man still can get together with a woman. The only difference here is that there's an extra choice if there was ever a want to role play differently.

[WildOrchid]

Straight stories are overrated and overused.

[Arch Enchantress Vernalda]

Taken from another thread:

The list should look like this

-Cassandra is interested in all characters.
-Blackwall is interested in all characters.
-Josephine is interested in all characters.
-Iron Bull is interested in all characters.
-Sera is interested in female characters.
-Dorian is interested in male characters.
-Cullen is interested in all characters.
-Solas is interested in all elves only.

 

Just...

No.

[Jaison1986]

Straight stories are overrated and overused.

 

But it doesn't stop it from be the only kind of story that over half of the gamers around the world would accept.

[Ray561]

Because historically, almost every story ever has been a straight story. Straight stories will never cease to exist in other mediums, but stories about non straight and open sexualities will continue to be hard to come by.

Straight romances still exist since a man still can get together with a woman. The only difference here is that there's an extra choice if there was ever a want to role play differently.

so you solution is because straight story's are a lot more common Bio-wear should only write homosexual story's?.

 

I'm going to say what a load of poop.

[aTigerslunch]

It's not only straight men that are not OK with this situation. I find it a little disheartening that with all the extra time the devs were only interested in telling more white straight men's stories.

 

And there were already two options for gay men and lesbians in DA2, where straight women had more options as well, and considering questions about advisor romances, it's possible regress for lesbians right now, or not, depending on how it works out in the end - it's just that similar romances in ME3 didn't feel like full blown romances. So at best, it's no change since DA2.

Sera and Josie will have exact same amount of romancing as well as others too. The advisors may not walk with you, they will have the same amount as companions.

 

My only two issues are this.

 

A: I can't imagine asking a transwoman to play as a man unless I knew her and knew she'd be comfortable doing so. By that same token, I can't imagine asking a straight guy to play a woman or a gay man. Some people just can't get into that different mindset, and I don't blame them. This is the first time I'll be playing any gay male characters, and only because the two romance options for that orientation are interesting enough for me to get over the fact that I'm not attracted to other men.

 

B: Many of those who are upset are acting like petulant children, yes. But some are upset because of a post by Allan Schumacher, and multiple posts by other posters that say it's okay to give extra options to the previously neglected groups and avoid ever giving any of those extra options to straight males. Those who complained about this have every right to be upset. That kind of reasoning, imo, is complete garbage. It may be well intended, but it's ultimately misguided.

 

Excluding straight males in the future won't affect the past treatment of women or LGB people in any way, and shifting who receives preferential treatment will only cause more negativity. Especially if people gloat or basically go "neener, neener now you know how it feels," as I've seen a few people do in this thread. There can only be equality if no one receives preferential treatment.Thankfully, in DAI, apparently we had equal options and were then given extra options that were determined by the creative process.

 

Which is what I believe should decide anything "extra," after everyone's gotten equal options to start with. That's just my $0.02, though.

Straight men isnt excluded.. they will always have their share as they always had.... two. (depending on ratios). I know some have issues breaking away and trying to support others, but they should consider trying to support LGBT.

 

As far as games out side of Bio-wear e.g Assassins creed if there not going to do anything with the main characters sexuality how about we leave it ambiguous and  not star making characters hetero or gay if they don't need to be 

Actually, outside games, tend to have hetero males more often than not. Every Assassin is straight so far that I saw, and seen within AC, I havent seen other sexualities and they are pretty blunt on seen what they prefer. Its actually pretty obvious the men are straight males. They are ancestors of today's Assassins for one, two, Ezio covered two games and slept with women. It would be nice if they were a bit more open and left to imagination but difficult when claimed as Great great great grandfather... or great great great grandmother for that one. It is known, if they are bi, that is another story, then can say its left to interpretation, but they are not Gay or Lesbian, less they was ......  nevermind....

 

EDIT:  I only brought that one up as an example to point out of Hetero males in many games... I cant even list them... wiki cant keep them on one page versus the single page of Gay and Lesbian characters in games.

[Sporothrix]

 
I know what you mean. That's why I listed Sera, Dorian and Solas as the only ones who should have a singular sexuality, because their preferences actually have something to do with their personal experiences.

 

"Their preferences actually have something to do with their personal experiences"? What is that supposed to mean?

 

BTW, I've read posts from Sera's creator in which he was emphasizing how "non-issue" her sexuality will be, so I'm afraid that in the end she could as well be "player-sexual", because the fact she's lesbian could be only concluded from her only romancing female character (maybe even with not very gender-specific dialogue), and if you played as dude you wouldn't even notice anything.

[aTigerslunch]

Vivienne by the way.... really does have the story for why she isnt romanceable.  A dev said specifically (cause they didnt know till talked to Vivi in game).

 

"Oh, that makes sense."     Exact words of a Dev when they talked to Vivienne.   I wonder what the reason is and we will find out ourselves as to why in game.

[jtav]

It's true, though. Players of games are consumers of art, not co-creators of it. The developers should more or less have freedom to do what they want, and everyone who plays it has the right to criticise that fiercely and vocally. I certainly did, after ME3's ending.

 

Of course I think a reasonable studio should try to make content for all their players, and I'm pretty pleased with what Bioware's done on this front so far, *and* I'd absolutely be the first person up in arms if I ever felt dissatisfied with what they were doing. 

 

There's probably some amount of overlap between providing fair representation and choices and what Bioware's writers want to do anyway - but at the end of the day it is their game, not ours. The only thing we have power over is whether or not we buy it.

Right. I just completed an ME trilogy run, and was left spluttering by how terrible the ending was. But when I see "DAI must have a happy ending/all romances should be available to everyone/etc." I'm left wondering where the writers' freedom is in all this.

[Parkimus]

"Their preferences actually have something to do with their personal experiences"? What is that supposed to mean?

 

BTW, I've read posts from Sera's creator in which he was emphasizing how "non-issue" her sexuality will be, so I'm afraid that in the end she could as well be "player-sexual", because the fact she's lesbian could be only concluded from her only romancing female character (maybe even with not very gender-specific dialogue), and if you played as dude you wouldn't even notice anything.

 

I don't see why a woman can't be a lesbian if she doesn't bring it up or if you don't notice.

[Moussey]

Making every character Bisexual would have made the complaining much worse than it is now heterosexual men are annoyed because heterosexual women have two extra options giving every other group an exclusive option but as would make it much worse.
 
I'm gonna be honest even I would be a little annoyed by it.

Hey, no one said change was easy! You have to move and shake things around to make things right for everyone.

I wouldn't say that everyone should be "bisexual" since bisexuality by itself can be a seperate identity. What I'm saying is for instance, if a character's main traits have nothing to do with their sexuality in particular, like if Cassandra and Blackwall are people who don't let much get in the way of work, then any sexual preference could be applied to them inconsequentially, if that makes sense. So for the purpose of romances, that are optional fun bits that always make people happy, it would be good to make them open.

Is it realistic? Hell no. Is it a linear, focused experience? Again no. But for optional content that is not part of the main story or lore, it allows for role players to define their experience the way they want to, and also does well to promote fair representation.

[Sporothrix]

Sera and Josie will have exact same amount of romancing as well as others too. The advisors may not walk with you, they will have the same amount as companions.

 

Somehow I doubt it is even possible to have the exact same amoung of "romancing". And of course devs will always say that those romances are not worse, especially since it affects group that was always marginilized. The same way as ME devs were very proud of their work with Traynor. But I will see and judge for myself.

[Ray561]

Sera and Josie will have exact same amount of romancing as well as others too. The advisors may not walk with you, they will have the same amount as companions.

 

Straight men isnt excluded.. they will always have their share as they always had.... two. (depending on ratios). I know some have issues breaking away and trying to support others, but they should consider trying to support LGBT.

 

Actually, outside games, tend to have hetero males more often than not. Every Assassin is straight so far that I saw, and seen within AC, I havent seen other sexualities and they are pretty blunt on seen what they prefer. Its actually pretty obvious the men are straight males. They are ancestors of today's Assassins for one, two, Ezio covered two games and slept with women. It would be nice if they were a bit more open and left to imagination but difficult when claimed as Great great great grandfather... or great great great grandmother for that one. It is known, if they are bi, that is another story, then can say its left to interpretation, but they are not Gay or Lesbian, less they was ......  nevermind....

 

EDIT:  I only brought that one up as an example to point out of Hetero males in many games... I cant even list them... wiki cant keep them on one page versus the single page of Gay and Lesbian characters in games.

I get what you mean and agree but I just don't want to see character sexuality begin a focus-point in every game I play if it's not necessary don't bother kinda deal.

 

As for you example you should have picked a better game considering assassins creed focus's mostly on a direct Bloodline like say GTA

[Sporothrix]

I don't see why a woman can't be a lesbian if she doesn't bring it up or if you don't notice.

 

If representation is supposed to be an argument for different sexualities, removing the visibility of that character's sexuality denies that argument. Plus it's ridiculous to think that for lesbian living in such heteronormative world her sexuality would be a "non-issue".

[Ray561]

Hey, no one said change was easy! You have to move and shake things around to make things right for everyone.

I wouldn't say that everyone should be "bisexual" since bisexuality by itself can be a seperate identity. What I'm saying is for instance, if a character's main traits have nothing to do with their sexuality in particular, like if Cassandra and Blackwall are people who don't let much get in the way of work, then any sexual preference could be applied to them inconsequentially, if that makes sense. So for the purpose of romances, that are optional fun bits that always make people happy, it would be good to make them open.

Is it realistic? Hell no. Is it a linear, focused experience? Again no. But for optional content that is not part of the main story or lore, it allows for role players to define their experience the way they want to, and also does well to promote fair representation.

what your saying dose to heterosexuals exactly what was done to homosexuals in the past so how is that a solution.