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[Lady Nuggins]

"Their preferences actually have something to do with their personal experiences"? What is that supposed to mean?

 

BTW, I've read posts from Sera's creator in which he was emphasizing how "non-issue" her sexuality will be, so I'm afraid that in the end she could as well be "player-sexual", because the fact she's lesbian could be only concluded from her only romancing female character (maybe even with not very gender-specific dialogue), and if you played as dude you wouldn't even notice anything.

 

I don't see how she could be interpreted as playersexual if it's actually impossible to romance her as a dude.

 

Somehow I doubt it is even possible to have the exact same amoung of "romancing". And of course devs will always say that those romances are not worse, especially since it affects group that was always marginilized. The same way as ME devs were very proud of their work with Traynor. But I will see and judge for myself.

 

How does Josephine affect marginalized groups, if she's one of the two romances available to straight men?

 

I understand why people are concerned about the adviser romances after ME, but everything we've seen about how deeply involved the advisers are with the game makes me think that it's going to be very different in this game.  The only part I would have missed for non-companions was the party banter, but even that will only be triggered in certain areas this time around.

[ElitePinecone]

Right. I just completed an ME trilogy run, and was left spluttering by how terrible the ending was. But when I see "DAI must have a happy ending/all romances should be available to everyone/etc." I'm left wondering where the writers' freedom is in all this.

Yeah.

I certainly don't think the writers' ability to write whatever stories they want should mean that they never take feedback. I hope they took as much feedback from ME3 as possible, and never do anything as disappointing as that ending ever again. Clearly, they also took heaps of feedback about DA2's story and environments before starting DA3.

In fact, I'm sure in many cases stories and characters are specifically written under the influence of feedback from previous games. It's a business, and of course they need to keep people satisfied in order to sell products. But if that decision is made, it needs to be made by the writers themselves (and their overlords), not because they're feeling pressured to do something by fans.

Inquisition has characters with set sexualities. Is this a response to people who complained about the bisexual romances in the last game? Maybe. But it also fulfills a longstanding desire on the part of the writers and David Gaider specifically to have more types of characters who can tell more types of stories.

[Moussey]

Honestly, the day romances become just fanservice is the day they should stop writing them. Games are an artistic medium. Within certain limits, the writers and developers should be free to do as they please and evaluated on how well or poorly they do it.

Maybe they should then.

As long as they're optional, they're made for the people.

It's simply my suggestion that they should in the future make romances more open to all. They've always communicated the message of being and open and free about sexuality to those of us who feel that life is too restricted. It would do well I think to use their "artistic integrity" to expand on it further.

[ElitePinecone]

If representation is supposed to be an argument for different sexualities, removing the visibility of that character's sexuality denies that argument. Plus it's ridiculous to think that for lesbian living in such heteronormative world her sexuality would be a "non-issue".

Thedas isn't necessarily heteronormative, World of Thedas said that same-sex relationships aren't stigmatised in Orlais and homosexuality is a quirk of character.

Noble relationships might still insist on male/female partnerships for making heirs, but Sera certainly isn't a noble.

[Lady Nuggins]

If representation is supposed to be an argument for different sexualities, removing the visibility of that character's sexuality denies that argument. Plus it's ridiculous to think that for lesbian living in such heteronormative world her sexuality would be a "non-issue".

 

I agree with you there, but we honestly don't know this is the case.  Thedas isn't necessarily as heteronormative as our world is, although our party is certainly straight-heavy this time around.  I could easily see her viewing her orientation as not a huge deal, but not hiding it, either.  Leliana didn't see her love of women as a big thing, after all, and she was pretty explicit about it on multiple occasions.

[Calicico]

I agree with you, however, I believe that male homosexuality generally receives a more immediate negative knee-jerk reaction than female homosexuality.  But I believe that it has to do with the fact that female homosexuality in media is often presented with the goal of straight male titillation, and that there is obviously no way to present male homosexuality in such a manner.

 

While that happens at times, in my experience it has also become such a common view that any romantic F/F pairing is for male titillation, that people quite often are dismissive of any F/F pairing that pops up regardless of actual context. They automatically assume it is for titallation and view the pairing as 'less real', no matter if the actual couple have gradually progressed in an organic way, the pairing has plot and character relevance, or if the show treats the couple on equal footing as the het pairings.
 

 

Vivienne by the way.... really does have the story for why she isnt romanceable.  A dev said specifically (cause they didnt know till talked to Vivi in game).

 

"Oh, that makes sense."     Exact words of a Dev when they talked to Vivienne.   I wonder what the reason is and we will find out ourselves as to why in game.

 

The thing is they obviously created that reason at some point. They chose to make her not a romance option and made a reason for why. So at least for me, while sure it is nice we get some story-wise reason, it still sucks that the black female is excluded as a LI.

Personally I think it would had been very good if she was a romance option as it would had worked heavily towards going against the stereotypical traits that it seems like she possesses(based on our limited information). There is a lot of lost potential there from my view. Black women that have personality traits like Viv (seems to have), *are often excluded as romantic partners, never considered desirable or allowed to be vunerable - especially in a romantic context. They are 'too busy to have man' and often 'nag and pick' on others to much.

 

*I mean this in a representation context of black women in various forms of media

[Parkimus]

If representation is supposed to be an argument for different sexualities, removing the visibility of that character's sexuality denies that argument. Plus it's ridiculous to think that for lesbian living in such heteronormative world her sexuality would be a "non-issue".

 

I agree with your first statement, but that's really not what I was addressing. Different sexualities are represented regardless of how subtle or blatant they may be shown. I think how forthcoming companions are with their sexualities depends on their character. For example, there have been several instances of Isabela mentioning her experiences with both men and women. Perhaps Sera's just not so open about it.

 

I don't think Thedas is heteronormative, either. At least not necessarily. It's probably a "non-issue" for her since she's not a noble.

[dutch_gamer]

I understand why people are concerned about the adviser romances after ME, but everything we've seen about how deeply involved the advisers are with the game makes me think that it's going to be very different in this game.  The only part I would have missed for non-companions was the party banter, but even that will only be triggered in certain areas this time around.

Exactly. Party banter will only be triggered in certain areas and romances will likely only happen either back at the camp or only at Skyhold. If is the latter advisors and companions would logically have the exact same amount of romance content available. It would line up with what BioWare has told us this time around, instead of assuming whatever developers tell us can't possibly happen because of so-and-so game.

[ElitePinecone]

Hey, no one said change was easy! You have to move and shake things around to make things right for everyone.

I wouldn't say that everyone should be "bisexual" since bisexuality by itself can be a seperate identity. What I'm saying is for instance, if a character's main traits have nothing to do with their sexuality in particular, like if Cassandra and Blackwall are people who don't let much get in the way of work, then any sexual preference could be applied to them inconsequentially, if that makes sense. So for the purpose of romances, that are optional fun bits that always make people happy, it would be good to make them open.

Is it realistic? Hell no. Is it a linear, focused experience? Again no. But for optional content that is not part of the main story or lore, it allows for role players to define their experience the way they want to, and also does well to promote fair representation.

 

For what it's worth I agree with this - I think more options for more people to access is generally a good thing.

 

But there was a fairly loud backlash against a similar thing in DA2, amongst a whole lot of other issues, and I don't think they can afford to ignore those people even if they disagree with them. At some point the drive for fairer representation and giving options to players is going to bump up against resistence from people who do have a problem with LGBT content, or find the idea unrealistic. I don't agree with them, but that viewpoint is out there.

 

(To the accountants all players are equal, after all.)

[Sporothrix]

I don't see how she could be interpreted as playersexual if it's actually impossible to romance her as a dude.

 

 

I never said anything like that. My point is that people who spoke against making everyone bisexual argued that different sexualities will make it possible to make more specific stories, since indeed those romances were very unspecific to encompass everyone. But if the lesbian romance is going to be just as unspecific as those "player-sexual/everyone pansexual" romances, then it denies that whole argument.

 

So if that's how it's going to be, then maybe it would be for the best if they worked more with bisexual characters, doing some real changes between romancing the same character as a man or as a woman, instead of making the treatment of different groups unequal.

 

 

How does Josephine affect marginalized groups, if she's one of the two romances available to straight men?

So lesbians don't matter, huh?

[Ianamus]

I really don't like the whole "X should be bisexual" thing. It feels like bisexuality is being treated as nothing more than a means to give certain players more romance options, rather than an important aspect of the charcter in it's own right.

 

I think that limiting it to just a few major characters, but making it more of a part of who they are is the perfect way to go. And I'd still love to see bisexual companions and important NPC's who are bisexual but not open for a relationship or casual sex with the player.

[WildOrchid]

But it doesn't stop it from be the only kind of story that over half of the gamers around the world would accept.

 

And there should more other stories too, for the rest of ppl who aren't straight.

[Nefla]

And yet, Cullen wasn't even an option during development and was only got added as a last minute bonus. The main romance was supposed to be Blackwall, and he's not considered conventionally pretty at all. I know a few friends who said they quit the forum/or not buying the game since the options for m/m was bad. Dorian as being flamboyant and IronBull "ugly". I'm not saying it's true or since since they're opinions. It just makes me ponder over Dorian's sexuality and his perceived masculinity. I personally had a few friends come out and they're being viewed differently and people notice how "gay" they are. If the option were Blackwall or Cullen-type of character, I don't think there would be a question in their gayness.

A lot of us have been asking for quite some time to have a manly-man LI and are sick of the pretty boys all the time.  The problem with Blackwall is that we know next to nothing about him.

 

Hell no.

 

I'd romance Zaeed before I'd romance Liara's MPD self.

Psshh! Zaeed is a sexy beast, he'd have been my first choice >.<

[Sporothrix]

I agree with your first statement, but that's really not what I was addressing. Different sexualities are represented regardless of how subtle or blatant they may be shown. I think how forthcoming companions are with their sexualities depends on their character. For example, there have been several instances of Isabela mentioning her experiences with both men and women. Perhaps Sera's just not so open about it.

 

I don't think Thedas is heteronormative, either. At least not necessarily.

 

If my lesbian city elf had to hide her sexuality before her family, or alternatively, no one took it seriously, then I have to assume it is extremely heteronormative.

[Ray561]

And there should more other stories too, for the rest of ppl who aren't straight.

yes there should, but completely cutting out straight stories is hardly the way to go.

[Sporothrix]

I really don't like the whole "X should be bisexual" thing. It feels like bisexuality is being treated as nothing more than a means to give certain players more romance options, rather than an important aspect of the charcter in it's own right.

 

If the lesbianism or particular character wasn't made an important aspect of that character in it's own right either, then it would feel like it has been treated as nothing more than a mean to give certain players just a romance option as well.

[Steelcan]

If my lesbian city elf had to hide her sexuality before her family, or alternatively, no one took it seriously, then I have to assume it is extremely heteronormative.

or her own personal feeling were secondary to the expectations placed on her in a society such as the alienage where marriages for financial reasons I imagine is the predominant motivator

[Ianamus]

If the lesbianism or particular character wasn't made an important aspect of that character in it's own right either, then it would feel like it has been treated as nothing more than a mean to give certain players just a romance option as well.

 

Nobody here is arguing that a character should be a lesbian solely so they can get another romance option.

[Lady Nuggins]

I never said anything like that. My point is that people who spoke against making everyone bisexual argued that different sexualities will make it possible to make more specific stories, since indeed those romances were very unspecific to encompass everyone. But if the lesbian romance is going to be just as unspecific as those "player-sexual/everyone pansexual" romances, then it denies that whole argument.

 

So if that's how it's going to be, then maybe it would be for the best if they worked more with bisexual characters, doing some real changes between romancing the same character as a man or as a woman, instead of making the treatment of different groups unequal.

 

I see, I misinterpreted what you were saying about how she might as well be playersexual, then.

 

And I have to say I disagree.  It's just as important to show a lesbian character who isn't there strictly for male titillation.  If she is explicitly a lesbian but the narrative treats her respectfully, then that seems extremely important to me.

 

So lesbians don't matter, huh?

 

Where did you get that idea?  I'm saying that in this game, non-companion romances aren't limited only to the most minority players.  Yes, in ME, that was most definitely the case.  But not in DAI.  I can't be upset that one of my two choices as a lady who wants to romance ladies is an adviser, when that is also the case for straight men and straight women.  It's clear that the advisers are not hasty last-minute additions (well, Cullen might be, but Josephine certainly isn't) as they were in ME.

 

I really don't like the whole "X should be bisexual" thing. It feels like bisexuality is being treated as nothing more than a means to give certain players more romance options, rather than an important aspect of the charcter in it's own right.

 

I think that limiting it to just a few major characters, but making it more of a part of who they are is the perfect way to go. And I'd still love to see bisexual companions and important NPC's who are bisexual but not open for a relationship or casual sex with the player.

 

Pretty tired of my sexuality being treated as a game mechanic, TBH.  Either go playersexual or go with clear orientations, but don't treat bisexuality as interchangeable with playersexuality when every other orientation is designated as "real."

[Sporothrix]

or her own personal feeling were secondary to the expectations placed on her in a society such as the alienage where marriages for financial reasons I imagine is the predominant motivator

Which is a part of what "heteronormativity" is because there are only straight marriages in that world.

[Bellethiel]

That reminds me talks about "artistic integrity!" in regard to ME3 ending.

 

True, but I see a difference between ending - which concerns every single player, and romances which are just addition to the game. 

 

Because historically, almost every story ever has been a straight story. Straight stories will never cease to exist in other mediums, but stories about non straight and open sexualities will continue to be hard to come by.

Straight romances still exist since a man still can get together with a woman. The only difference here is that there's an extra choice if there was ever a want to role play differently.

 

I still think that solution which you presented is kind of like going from one extreme to the other. With DA:I romances we do have quite a big variety when you look at LI's preferences. No matter who has most options, thre is representation of heterosexuals, homosexuals and bisexuals. And that feels more realistic to me. One can be dissapointed for not being able to romance Cassandra as female Inquisitor, but hey these things do happen in real life too. You can feel attracted to person who will never give you a chance just because of your gender. 

[Raikas]

If my lesbian city elf had to hide her sexuality before her family, or alternatively, no one took it seriously, then I have to assume it is extremely heteronormative.

 

But on the flip side, the human noble's family was aware of and could joke around about that Warden's sexuality, so while the that particular alienage might have one standard one way it's clearly not a universal thing in all of Thedas.

[AresKeith]

Err... not quite. They said... (very minor story spoiler, if it even counts as that)

Spoiler

That at some point our choices can lead to a man coming and slapping a dead goat against on our property to disrespect us, and that we can decide what to do with him.

I'll put a dead horse head in his bed lol

[ladyofpayne]

I am so tired to read whine from men.

 

Let's count LI:

Straight: Blackwall, Solas, Cassndra and  Cullen 

BI: Josephine, Iron BUll

GAY: Dorian, Sera

 

Men have 4 LI,  Women have 5. I see no problem in this- men lost nothing. There are 2 girls for you, like in DAO and DA 2.

 

You don't like Cassandra and Josie and you prefer Vivienne instead? This is real life- you can't romance everyone you see.

[Steelcan]

Which is a part of what "heteronormativity" is because there are only straight marriages in that world.

You mean a world where dynasties and lineages are important isn't wholly accepting of gay marriage?