3344 réponses à ce sujet

[TheJediSaint]

Because regardless of gender and orientation, they're assholes.

Though I don't think Cassandra should be bi, that doesn't mean people who do are assholes.

[Steelcan]

That's why I think they should do it like movies, were they screen it to an audience before being released world wide to see the general reaction. There are a couple of movies out there whose endings got completely changed because the reaction from the viewers was very negative.

and sometimes the ending we get in the end product is vastly worse

 

the Will Smith "I am Legend" comes to mind

[Willowhugger]

That's why I think they should do it like movies, were they screen it to an audience before being released world wide to see the general reaction. There are a couple of movies out there whose endings got completely changed because the reaction from the viewers was very negative.

Sometimes, you have your hands on the pulse of the fanbase.

Sometimes not.

[Sporothrix]

Again, there is no reason to believe it will be, and did you miss what I said about Leliana?  She also saw her sexuality as a non-issue.  And she talked about her experiences with women.  And she hit on Morrigan.  And you meet her former lover.  There is no avoiding her bisexuality, no matter what kind of character you play.  You can have sexuality not turned into a source of drama while also making it explicit.  

 

I'm actually not sure what you're arguing about.  You want Sera to be bisexual because she's not lesbian enough?  

 

My point is that it just felt unrealistic and cheap, it wasn't "non-issue" but simple refusal to talk about the issues that stand behind it. World of Thedas may be not violently homophobic, but it's definitely extremely heteronormative. Being non-straight is not seen as viable 'option' since even the most tolerant Orlesians perceive it as a "quirk of character".

 

The non-straight historical women I've read about, undoubtedly because of living in heteronormative environments, dedicated lots of their time on trying to figure out why they felt this way. Lack of a single mention in previous games regarding the issue of being non-straight felt just extremely artificial.

[Steelcan]

I admit, you'd think the whole Fallout 3 thing would have clued them in people don't like forced sacrifices.

 

But I also understand they ran out of time.

that doesn't excuse anything, it may explain why the ending was rushed, but not the deeper issues of why it was unsatisying

[Willowhugger]

and sometimes the ending we get in the end product is vastly worse

 

the Will Smith "I am Legend" comes to mind

 

Will Smith learns the valuable lesson that tolerance is wrong.

[Willowhugger]

that doesn't excuse anything, it may explain why the ending was rushed, but not the deeper issues of why it was unsatisying

 

Yeah, I changed my post.

[HK-90210]

   It's super straight forward

I always thought it would just be easier to make everyone pansexual, with the exception of certain people if they want to be restrictive for "lore" reasons (Sera, Dorian, Solas)

Romances are first and foremost optional fanservicey content, so to be restrictive to certain genders and races in a game that's trying to appeal to more people is counterintuitive, at least to me

 

Just to be clear, you're saying that Dorian and Sera could stay gay/lesbian in this scenario for 'lore reasons', but Cassandra and Blackwall can't for 'fanservicey' reasons?

 

If so, sounds like someone's not holding gay romances to the same standard as straight ones. Why should those who want to romance Dorian as a female be treated differently than the ones who want to romance Cassandra as a female, in this fantasy scenario that ignores the time/budget issues that come with making all/most romances bisexual.

[jtav]

God knows I was doing plenty of whining about Dorian when I thought  IB and Cullen were my choices. I just wasn't doing it in public spaces. I think the majority of the vitriol really does boil down to "I wanted X!"

[Willowhugger]

My point is that it just felt unrealistic and cheap, it wasn't "non-issue" but simple refusal to talk about the issues that stand behind it. World of Thedas may be not violently homophobic, but it's definitely extremely heteronormative. Being non-straight is not seen as viable 'option' since even the most tolerant Orlesians perceive it as a "quirk of character".

 

The non-straight historical women I've read about, undoubtedly because of living in heteronormative environments, dedicated lots of their time on trying to figure out why they felt this way. Lack of all of this in previous games felt just extremely artificial.

For me, that opens the question of.

"Do they make it an issue"

or

"Do they retcon Thedas to not be as heteronormative?"

I favor Option 2#.

[Ianamus]

My point is that it just felt unrealistic and cheap, it wasn't "non-issue" but simple refusal to talk about the issues that stand behind it. World of Thedas may be not violently homophobic, but it's definitely extremely heteronormative. Being non-straight is not seen as viable 'option' since even the most tolerant Orlesians perceive it as a "quirk of character".

 

The non-straight historical women I've read about, undoubtedly because of living in heteronormative environments, dedicated lots of their time on trying to figure out why they felt this way. Lack of all of this in previous games felt just extremely artificial.

 

There is more than enough sexuality-related drama in media. I want characters who are bisexual and completely fine with it, and have the same issues as everyone else rather than ones focused solely on their sexuality. And the same for gay and lesbian characters.

 

It's much more empowering for LGBT viewers, and allows straight viwers to better empathise with them.

[Steelcan]

the last thing Dragon Age needs is more retcons

[Parkimus]

Though I don't think Cassandra should be bi, that doesn't mean people who do are assholes.

 

You're right, I shouldn't paint all people who do that with the same brush. I'm just tired of seeing the "X should be this, Y doesn't know what they're missing, Z just needs summa wo/man-love to fall for me" mentality.

[Willowhugger]

the last thing Dragon Age needs is more retcons

"Clarification" not retcon (to steal from ME3).

 

I liked how The Masked Empire made it clear that Thedans simply don't think of sexuality the way it's commonly perceived in the United States. Duke Gaspard found out that Empress Celene is not only not heterosexual but probably a full-on lesbian. His reaction? "Well, that explains a few things. Now, can we get onto getting married?" It was completely unrelated to sexuality and purely an issue of property.

True Blood had something similar with the homosexual Russel Eddington and lesbian Queen Sophia who had no sexual attraction to one another, no interest in one another, and still had the former want a marriage for the sake of gaining title to her lands.

 

I think this opens some very interesting ideas and storytelling.

Also, bluntly, "Gaynst" is something which implies being gay is a constant struggle and being miserable. I prefer media which celebrates people being true to themselves.

[Steelcan]

"Clarification" not retcon (to steal from ME3).

 

I liked how The Masked Empire made it clear that Thedans simply don't think of sexuality the way it's commonly perceived in the United States. Duke Gaspard found out that Empress Celene is not only not heterosexual but probably a full-on lesbian. His reaction? "Well, that explains a few things. Now, can we get onto getting married?" It was completely unrelated to sexuality and purely an issue of property.

True Blood had something similar with the homosexual Russel Eddington and lesbian Queen Sophia who had no sexual attraction to one another, no interest in one another, and still had the former want a marriage for the sake of gaining title to her lands.

 

I think this opens some very interesting ideas and storytelling.

you should play Crusader Kings 2

[Sporothrix]

my point is that its not worth commenting on given the setting, we see how important marriages are in the setting, especially in the human noble origin

 

Apparently even more in City Elf origin, since that possiblity isn't acknowledged at all, leading to conclusion that the character hides it before her or his family (now, let's wonder what are the reasons for that), or they know about it and don't respect nor take it seriously at all.

[Steelcan]

Apparently even more in City Elf origin, since that possiblity isn't acknowledged at all, leading to conclusion that the character hides it before her or his family, or they know about it and don't respect nor take it seriously at all.

or they dealt with it three months ago when they came out and were told "Ok but you are still marrying X"

 

there are an infinite number of possibilities that weren't acknowledged in all origins and for all orientations

[Lady Nuggins]

My point is that it just felt unrealistic and cheap, it wasn't "non-issue" but simple refusal to talk about the issues that stand behind it. World of Thedas may be not violently homophobic, but it's definitely extremely heteronormative. Being non-straight is not seen as viable 'option' since even the most tolerant Orlesians perceive it as a "quirk of character".

 

The non-straight historical women I've read about, undoubtedly because of living in heteronormative environments, dedicated lots of their time on trying to figure out why they felt this way. Lack of a single mention in previous games regarding the issue of being non-straight felt just extremely artificial.

 

I personally found it refreshing.  Queer characters in a fantasy setting who are allowed to be queer without a world of drama and modern homophobia?  Sign me up.  Remember, while heteronormativity may have run strong in historical settings, the explicit acknowledgement of heterosexuality has a very short history (see: http://www.salon.com...e_heterosexual/ ).  To me, it's more realistic to have a setting where queer people are not often acknowledged, but are also not explicitly oppressed.  

[HiroVoid]

Apparently even more in City Elf origin, since that possiblity isn't acknowledged at all, leading to conclusion that the character hides it before her or his family (now, let's wonder what are the reasons for that), or they know about it and don't respect nor take it seriously at all.

Soren also gets chased out for wanting to marry a human woman, so elven culture may take these issues more seriously because of arranged marriages and such.

[Willowhugger]

Apparently even more in City Elf origin, since that possiblity isn't acknowledged at all, leading to conclusion that the character hides it before her or his family (now, let's wonder what are the reasons for that), or they know about it and don't respect nor take it seriously at all.

Unless there's an option to say, "You realize I'm gay, right?"

I'm just assuming they chose an origin without thinking too hard on the consequences.

[HK-90210]

you should play Crusader Kings 2

 

My kingdom for more likes! Best non-Bioware game ever, that one. The day the folks making the Dragon Age mod finish their first build, I will be in gamer heaven.

[Sporothrix]

True Blood had something similar with the homosexual Russel Eddington and lesbian Queen Sophia who had no sexual attraction to one another, no interest in one another, and still had the former want a marriage for the sake of gaining title to her lands.

 

Small correction, queen Sophie-Ann both in books and in awful TV series was bisexual, though with preference for women.

[Parkimus]

My point is that it just felt unrealistic and cheap, it wasn't "non-issue" but simple refusal to talk about the issues that stand behind it. World of Thedas may be not violently homophobic, but it's definitely extremely heteronormative. Being non-straight is not seen as viable 'option' since even the most tolerant Orlesians perceive it as a "quirk of character".

 

I don't really see it that way, but I can see how you might.

 

The non-straight historical women I've read about, undoubtedly because of living in heteronormative environments, dedicated lots of their time on trying to figure out why they felt this way. Lack of a single mention in previous games regarding the issue of being non-straight felt just extremely artificial.

 

I don't think it's artificial that women can be [insert here]sexual and be confident/don't think too much of it. In fact, I think it's better to portray a confident and strong character who just happens to be a certain orientation (and show that it's okay to be who they are) than one that's preoccupied with the struggles surrounding it.

[Willowhugger]

Small correction, queen Sophie-Ann both in books and in awful TV series was bisexual, though with preference for women.

 

Point taken!

[ElitePinecone]

There is more than enough sexuality-related drama in media. I want characters who are bisexual and completely fine with it, and have the same issues as everyone else rather than ones focused solely on their sexuality. And the same for gay and lesbian characters.

 

It's much more empowering for LGBT viewers, and allows straight viwers to better empathise with them.

 

Yep.

 

I'm over stories of oppression, self-loathing and unhappy endings. It's exhausting.