3344 réponses à ce sujet

[Hazegurl]

If you are going to apply a racial tone to it and think she needs to be a romance option to serve as a good example for black people then shouldn't you be happy with her, regardless of her being a love interest status, as a successful career black woman focused on her career?  Don't get me wrong, I'm not against having Vivienne as a love interest and was thinking that she was going to be one myself and was looking forward to it for a future playthrough on a more politically minded character, but I figured she serves as a good example on a surface glance (we don't know details of her in the game) as a strong black woman being successful (at least as far as being a mage goes).

The problem is that successful black women in the media are usually depicted as "Too strong for a man." and somehow immune to love and affection to the point of coming across just as manly as any man.  All too often white women are the beautiful damsel worthy of love and adortion. So I can understand white females being proud of being shown as career minded, focused, successful, and without a man.  But for black women it's nearly the opposite. It's not to say that black women do not like those depictions as well...  I guess the best way to describe it is that white women are often shown as the epitome of femininity and a lot of that has to do with romance and family whereas black women are usually the antithesis of that. I'm not sure if this is what the poster means, but that's my interpretation of what I see in the media.

 

And no BioW is not wrong for not making Viv a romance option. I don't think anyone is saying they are wrong. But it would have been really nice if she was romancable. Especially since we don't see a lot of dark skinned African featured women in romances in the media.

[Milana]

So we should reduce the amount of overall content and reduce (or outright eliminate) representation solely so people who focus on what they don't have rather than what they do don't feel bad about the existence of exclusive content that isn't aimed specifically at them?

 

I get it, and hopefully the envy is something you can get past once you enjoy the game, but I'm afraid that's not something I'm ever going to be able to sign up for, sorry.

reduce representation? are u saying straight females dont get enough representation in media, thats why you decided to make more options for them? the only thing i can say that its not only them who's having the same treatment. well all right then. thank you for answering me though,i hope i didnt waste your time. 

 

White straight men really are so underrepresented that the idea of reducing their representation is so horrible? Also, no one said anything about "outright eliminating" them.

 

 this. i didnt say anything about eliminating someone,just wanted equal options.

[Ray561]

So we should reduce the amount of overall content and reduce (or outright eliminate) representation solely so people who focus on what they don't have rather than what they do don't feel bad about the existence of exclusive content that isn't aimed specifically at them?

 

I get it, and hopefully the envy is something you can get past once you enjoy the game, but I'm afraid that's not something I'm ever going to be able to sign up for, sorry.

I'm very happy with the way the content was distributed, Very interested the Solas Romance mostly because it's so restricted.

 

I'm very happy for the lady's that got extra content mostly because now they can Hush down about a Cullen romance, very sorry for the men who missed out on him and Black wall, but you guy's as  have a story to tell and to me that's what matters not who got the most candies.

 

Keep up the awesome work guy's.

[David Gaider]

 

reduce representation? are u saying straight females dont get enough representation in media, thats why you decided to make more options for them? the only thing i can say thats not only them who's having the same treatment. well all right then. thank you for answering me though,i hope i didnt waste your time.

 

I'm talking about DA2's system of having all the LI's being bisexual.

 

The same sentiment applies, however, if one's position is that the two additional romances should be removed because "straight women get too much" (because that's so true everywhere else in the game industry, I suppose) or... well, I don't even know what. Gay people should have gotten more than they did because they also traditionally don't get many options? Why did "we" not get the so-called "extra content"?

 

It boils down to the envy you spoke of, and like I said—if one's primary concern is worrying about content that others have which they don't, or trying to justify why the options they do have are somehow unfair just because they're not the options they personally want, then I'm afraid there's not much to discuss. Hopefully that will change once the game comes out, and you can focus on what's actually there for you.

[Sporothrix]

I'm very happy with the way the content was distributed, Very interested the Solas Romance mostly because it's so restricted.

 

I'm very happy for the lady's that got extra content mostly because now they can Hush down about a Cullen romance, very sorry for the men who missed out on him and Black wall, but you guy's as  have a story to tell and to me that's what matters not who got the most candies.

 

Keep up the awesome work guy's.

 

You just expressed how happy you are for getting extra content but at the same time insist that what matters is the story not who got the most candies...

[TheJediSaint]

 Hopefully that will change once the game comes out, and you can focus on what's actually there for you.

Considering there's Cassandra and Josephine waiting for me when the game comes out, I'm pretty optimistic about my options.

 

(Also, Sera for my female PC)

[LiaraShepard]

I'm talking about DA2's system of having all the LI's being bisexual.

 

The same sentiment applies, however, if one's position is that the two additional romances should be removed because "straight women get too much" (because that's so true everywhere else in the game industry, I suppose) or... well, I don't even know what. Gay people should have gotten more than they did because they also traditionally don't get many options? Why did "we" not get the so-called "extra content"?

 

It boils down to the envy you spoke of, and like I said—if one's primary concern is worrying about content that others have which they don't, or trying to justify why the options they do have are somehow unfair just because they're not the options they personally want, then I'm afraid there's not much to discuss. Hopefully that will change once the game comes out, and you can focus on what's actually there for you.

 

But is it still possible for gay and lesbian gamers to get bonus LI's one day, or will it always be the straight males and females who get more content if the options aren't equal? I'm just asking, because I think many gay and lesbian people want to know if it's ever possible for Bioware to make a game with more gay romances than straight romances or if it's impossible because it'd be too unconventional.

[Lady Nuggins]

Like I stated before, saying that it has not always been perceived that way is just ahistoric, since before the concept of sexual orientations existed, "straight" was just "normal", and "sodomites" etc. were persecuted. And where it wasn't persecuted, like in Japan, any non-straight sexuality was just not taken seriously, but as just a phase that we shouldn't think much of.

 

That woman's stance on the biological research about homosexuality and heterosexuality (which was very ignorant as I can say since I've studied most of the research) shows that she doesn't believe in any real, biological reasons that make people straight or gay. It was further emphasized by her notions about 'lesbians who date transmen' (who, in my experience, tend to dump their boyfriends when their previously female appearance fades away because of hormone treatment): "It’s very much about what cultures you participate in.  What cultures you ally yourself with, you know, whose flag you fly".

 

Now that's terribly ignorant statement. Of course some people mislabel themselves for various reasons, for example because of cultural reasons, but in the end, homosexual person is homosexual because they're only attracted to people of the same sex. Culture doesn't make anyone have sexual feelings for the same sex.

 

Honestly, this type of bisexual folks, who can't comprehend that not everyone is like them, that not everyone has the same feelings as them so if only the concepts of hetero and homosexuality didn't exist everyone would be with men and women, I really don't like since they try to negate validity of my sexuality just the same way as homophobes.

 

I can't say whether this is what this person believes because I haven't read her book or anything other than this interview.  All I can say is that that is not what I believe, and that was not my intent with linking this article.  I don't think the fact that some people have more fluid orientations means that all people must have fluid orientations, and that is not remotely something I ever intended to suggest.

[Ray561]

You just expressed how happy you are for getting extra content but at the same time insist that what matters is the story not who got the most candies...

I was talking about the over all romance content not just the Solas and Cullen romances.

[Lilith]

But is it still possible for gay and lesbian gamers to get bonus LI's one day, or will it always be the straight males and females who get more content if the options aren't equal? I'm just asking, because I think many gay and lesbian people want to know if it's ever possible for Bioware to make a game with more gay romances than straight romances or if it's impossible because it'd be too unconventional.

Lesbians got more options than straight ladies in ME3

[LiaraShepard]

Lesbians got more options than straight ladies in ME3

 they have liara and traynor (plus kelly). straight ladies have garrus and kaidan (plus Vegas, though he's more like a fling)...but I wouldn't call kelly more important. I think it's even.

[jtav]

But is it still possible for gay and lesbian gamers to get bonus LI's one day, or will it always be the straight males and females who get more content if the options aren't equal? I'm just asking, because I think many gay and lesbian people want to know if it's ever possible for Bioware to make a game with more gay romances than straight romances or if it's impossible because it'd be too unconventional.

I'm not David, but I remember a time when they said it wasn't viable to have a LI who was gay or lesbian at all. As gaming demographocs change, I suspect it'll become more likely.

[Raikas]

Also dismissing Josie's status as a PoC romance because "she' s not black enough", just...just...

 

But why should people who are looking specifically for black character content (romance or not) be happy with a brown character just because she's not white?

 

I think it's absurd to act as though all "people of colour" are a monolith who are equally well represented by any character who is anything but white. 

Don't get me wrong, I'm actually thrilled that we have brown people in the game (and that Dorian was explicitly identified as such by the devs, so there won't be the whole disappointment that there was with Isabela for some people who assumed that she was brown before they specified that she was intended to be black), and I think it's missing the bigger picture to lump everyone together and expect people looking with one kind of representation to be happy with another.

[HK-90210]

I find it self contradictory. How can a world be both heteronormative and at the same time, homosexuality not be a big deal?

 

That's why I don't think it's not a big deal, but simple refusal of the devs to really touch this subject, unfortunately making the experience superficial. I have no problem with the fact that the world we play in is heteronormative if only it wasn't pretended that it's not the case.
 

 

It seems we are using differing definitions of 'heteronormative'. I was using, to quote the Oxford dictionary: "Denoting or relating to a world view that promotes heterosexuality as the normal or preferred sexual orientation"

 

Given this definition, I don't think it is automatically self-contradictory for a world that doesn't consider homosexuality a big deal to still be heteronormative. Just because someone doesn't subscribe to the cultural norm doesn't mean that it is a big deal. Take Cassandra or Evangeline, for example. Two women born into wealthy families, expected to get married and make babies. Instead, they join the Seekers/Templars, dedicating themselves to noble and religious ideals. Doubtless their friends and family thought they made strange decisions, but they were not held back from doing so, and apparently were allowed to advance within the ranks quite well. Still, most Templars and Seekers are male. Cassandra and Evangeline are unusual, but it really doesn't seem to affect them very much, if at all. It's just not a big deal.

 

To put it another way: about 20% of American women neither have, nor want children. Despite 4/5 either having or wanting children, it is not automatically 'big deal' if a woman does not have any. It may be a big deal if her family really wants her to give them another grandchild, or she really wants children, but is incapable of having them. There is conflict in either scenario. But her parents don't have any desire for a grandchild? Or if she is incapable AND doesn't want them? Not a very big deal. Still, a great number of people will still operate under the assumption that that 20% have or want children. It's amazing that 20% of the time, you're wrong making that assumption, though. Do we call that 'kideronormative'? Hmm....*goes off to think about that*

[Lady Nuggins]

Lesbians got more options than straight ladies in ME3

 

Do we really need to keep doing this?  Everybody who wasn't a straight male lost out in ME3.  Arguing over who had it the worst between straight women, lesbians, and gay men, never gets anywhere.

[Lilith]

 they have liara and traynor (plus kelly). straight ladies have garrus and kaidan (plus Vegas, though he's more like a fling)...but I wouldn't call kelly more important. I think it's even.

Allers and Samara too

[costalren28]

Not sure I'm entirely understanding this, but I'll give it a go... If the love interest's sexuality is deliberately ambiguous to allow that situation (as in, they react to a male or female Inquisitor as if they're only interested in that gender) I think it makes storylines like Dorian's difficult if not impossible. A character can't plausibly have a narrative about clashing with their homeland over their sexuality if another playthrough they're presented as straight.

 

Metagaming is fairly universal (do you know any players that don't check wikis and guides for games to see other content that they missed?) and a Dorian who was gay in one playthrough and straight in another would be incredibly confusing, if not jarring. As was said before, that story gets harder to do if he's bisexual, or even "bisexual but unstated and open to both genders in different universes".

 

I'm also really uncomfortable with the implicit assumption that the romances should revolve around the player-character, and by extension the player, rather than having their own plots and creative input from the writers.

 

Well, I was looking at the angle of replayability. Since, I was reading that one of the arguments that people have for the romances, being "bisexual" is that it cuts down on replayability value. This way, provides a fresh perspective with a new playthrough, while giving everybody the same access.

[LiaraShepard]

Allers and Samara too

 

if you count Allers, you must also count Javic...and if you count Samara, you must count Thane as well.

 

I think the least options got gay men. They have no flings at all and no romance in previous ME games...but straight female gamer and lesbians also had the cards stacked against them. The only one who win in this game are straight males. 

[WildOrchid]

Lesbians got more options than straight ladies in ME3

 

Overall, no. What they did with ME3 was stupid but straight women got Thane, Garrus and Jacob in ME2 and we got Liara and gay men no one.

 

So, despite how the LI's ended up in ME3 (and i srsly hated how the game handled the romances in general), they still got more than us.... and them finally adding Traynor and Cortez means they didn't ever bother with gays until ME3.

[WildOrchid]

Allers and Samara too

 

They aren't romances, jfc.

[Mabari-Master]

I think this "envy" everyone is feeling stems from the fact that not everyone is getting the romance option they wanted, and now they feel the opportunity and content they were hoping for is for nothing.

 

For example, I was planning to have a female Qunari mage romance Dorian, because I wanted to see the chemistry between two mages who are racially, culturally and politically split from one another. And I wanted to have my male Dalish rogue romance Sera because I wanted to see how two elves from two radically different backgrounds would react romantically towards one another, and thought it would be interesting to see them reach that point. 

 

That's my opinion, anyway. Take it for what it is.

[Sporothrix]

I'm talking about DA2's system of having all the LI's being bisexual.

 

The same sentiment applies, however, if one's position is that the two additional romances should be removed because "straight women get too much" (because that's so true everywhere else in the game industry, I suppose) or... well, I don't even know what. Gay people should have gotten more than they did because they also traditionally don't get many options? Why did "we" not get the so-called "extra content"?

 

It boils down to the envy you spoke of, and like I said—if one's primary concern is worrying about content that others have which they don't, or trying to justify why the options they do have are somehow unfair just because they're not the options they personally want, then I'm afraid there's not much to discuss. Hopefully that will change once the game comes out, and you can focus on what's actually there for you.

 

As for me, it's just that I feel dissapointed and it's not really about other people getting too much. As I mentioned once on this board, I live in Poland which, long story short, is homophobic and sexist country. I fell victim of hate crimes numerous times. I treat videogames as escapist fantasy, and Dragon Age franchise was always special to me. Judging from how the treatment of LGB matters evolved from DAO to DA2 it really looked like equality, at least in this aspect, is the imperative so I had really big expectations - which basically means that I thought I won't have less options than other, especially straight, people.

 

Now, how it all has been handled, I've took as a reminder that sure, I can have some nice things, but I will never be considered equal, like with, speaking of more serious matters, situation of civil parthership (which isn't legal in my country) vs marriage with the same rights. It's not the same level of course, but like I mentioned, I treat those games as escapist fantasy, to forget my situation for a moment. But then I'm reminded of it once again.

[David Gaider]

But is it still possible for gay and lesbian gamers to get bonus LI's one day, or will it always be the straight males and females who get more content if the options aren't equal? I'm just asking, because I think many gay and lesbian people want to know if it's ever possible for Bioware to make a game with more gay romances than straight romances or if it's impossible because it'd be too unconventional.

 

I doubt conventionality has anything to do with it.

 

Ultimately we do have to take into account, at some point, how much content is going to be used. I say "at some point" because there's only so far one can take such an argument before we start justifying removing things like rogues and dwarves... the existence of options provides inherent value even to those people who do not take the options. That argument does apply when it comes to extra options, however.

 

If one is looking to Dragon Age to provide more options to gay players than everyone else because "we're the game that does that", I'd have to warn caution on that particular supposition. DA is not the gay messiah of the gaming industry. I won't say it could never happen, as I'm not the person who gets to decide such things, and--honestly--if we found a really compelling creative reason to do so we might find a way regardless, so I cannot rule it out. But let's not put the cart before the horse either, shall we?

[Milana]

I'm talking about DA2's system of having all the LI's being bisexual.

 

The same sentiment applies, however, if one's position is that the two additional romances should be removed because "straight women get too much" (because that's so true everywhere else in the game industry, I suppose) or... well, I don't even know what. Gay people should have gotten more than they did because they also traditionally don't get many options? Why did "we" not get the so-called "extra content"?

 

It boils down to the envy you spoke of, and like I said—if one's primary concern is worrying about content that others have which they don't, or trying to justify why the options they do have are somehow unfair just because they're not the options they personally want, then I'm afraid there's not much to discuss. Hopefully that will change once the game comes out, and you can focus on what's actually there for you.

You are right, envy may overclouded my mind:( though i still think that the fact that a lot of straight female gamers are on this forum and express their opinions may have an influence on the romance options( i may be wrong, im very rarely here, but still see a lot of posts with people being very happy over the big amount of choices for straight female,and only a few complain like me, though you can clearly see that im not a straight male one ) i want to be happy for girls, i just can't,because i dont buy my game for them. Dont get me wrong you are like one of the two developers whose games i actually enjoy, guess we are getting a bit spoiled to be honest

[costalren28]

I'm talking about DA2's system of having all the LI's being bisexual.

 

The same sentiment applies, however, if one's position is that the two additional romances should be removed because "straight women get too much" (because that's so true everywhere else in the game industry, I suppose) or... well, I don't even know what. Gay people should have gotten more than they did because they also traditionally don't get many options? Why did "we" not get the so-called "extra content"?

 

It boils down to the envy you spoke of, and like I said—if one's primary concern is worrying about content that others have which they don't, or trying to justify why the options they do have are somehow unfair just because they're not the options they personally want, then I'm afraid there's not much to discuss. Hopefully that will change once the game comes out, and you can focus on what's actually there for you.

 

By the way, you can also consider DLC options. Since people are so against equal representation, than use an economic model, where you can sell more options down the line, to those who will pay for it.