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Romances in Dragon Age Inquisition


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#2426
ElitePinecone

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Doesn't The Last of Us have teenage gay girl as one of its protagonists? Isn't that more bold move than giving gay people a bit more choices in optional romance content?

 

That was only revealed in DLC after they'd sold ten million copies of the base game, or whatever.

 

(Female homosexuality also doesn't receive as much criticism from internet man-children, *and* even then many people were still arguing that the kiss between the female protagonist and her friend was platonic rather than love. People can't be offended by something if they try to deny that it even happened.)

 

The Last of Us also doesn't have romantic choices. There'd be no media headlines like "Bioware announces gay romances will outnumber straight ones in their new RPG", which I guarantee would cause mayhem.

 

To consider a different case, imagine an Assassin's Creed game where the protagonist had a non-optional relationship with another man that was expressed through cutscenes that implied sex.

 

Do you honestly think it would sell as well as the same game featuring a heterosexual hero?


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#2427
Ianamus

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Not knowing that you are getting less options =/= Getting less options is a problem

 

But It's not a problem. 

 

Be honest: If Solas and Cullen weren't LI's none of you would be here complaining, despite having the exact same options. 

 

What matters to you isn't your options, It's what the numbers look like. 

 

The majority of people will play the game, find a romance they like and just enjoy it. The only pain and unhappiness being caused by the LI setup in Inquisition is right here: people letting themselves get upset over something that doesn't matter, and giving themselves no chance of just doing what everyone else will do and simply enjoying the game and what it has. 


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#2428
LiaraShepard

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That's assuming "they" will want to replay that many times, or for those particular romances rather than switch to another gender or orientation to try a completely different character. Just because the options are there does not mean a specific group of people really have double anything except maybe in choices - which, ultimately, we all have. There are eight romances. We can choose to play for them, or not. But in the end we are all represented and all have a choice within that representation, and that's far more important to me than who has "extra."

 

It's not really a choice if I only like to romance a certain gender. I tried to romance Alistar as a female, and Morrigan as a male character and I failed. I couldn't enjoy my playthrough. I really tried but I couldn't. It just felt wrong. 



#2429
Calicico

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2) Vivienne, as a black woman, not being a LI:

 

I get that some people are disappointed. That's fair--she's pretty awesome, and could have made for an interesting romance if she had been concepted for one. Considering that one could also make an argument about a black woman being present in the game solely to be a fetishized sex object (as if no-one ever made this argument about Isabela?), or that this brings up awkward discussions about skin color vis à vis Josephine, I'm not sure this is a good road to go down. I would hope a character could make for great representation in the game, and do so by being a great character and not solely by whether or not they're available to be romanced, and that this will be evident once someone plays.

 

To be quite frank, while I love Isabela, she does fall into the Jezebel stereotype that is basically in the top 3 of racist stereotypes for black women. The hyper-sexualized black woman stereotype also has horrific history as a way to justify the very high amount of rape black women experienced at the hands of white men during slavery. And the stereotype still persists today and causes massive damage, so it doesn't surprise me that some people made that argument as it is a rather (for lack of better word) sensitive area.

 

I do think you and others are missing the point in regards to Viv and race to an extent. Going by what we know of Viv, she is a strong independent black woman, who is ambitious, have goals that she is working hard to reach and she likes to look fabulous. A lot of these things fall into stereotypical traits. If you go into circles where black women discuss these traits/stereotype, what they say very often they would want to see in order to humanize these characters and tear apart the stereotype, is allowing her/them to be vulnerable(!), shown as worthy of love/desirable and showing/receiving affection. And these aspects are very often presented in a romantic context. This partly relates to that this stereotype is often default single, and particularly never shown to be open, affectionate or vulnerable with a romantic partner.

 

Furthermore while you have the Jezebel as the hypersexual, another very widely spread stereotype is The Mammy who is basically treated as asexual. There is no in between here. "At best" you got the Sapphire who nags and nags and emasculates her husband and puts everybody down. That has now partly morphed into the "Angry Black Woman" and what all of these common stereotypes share, is an utter lack of positive romantic relationships, which also not so subtly suggests that black women in general are not good romantic partners or even potential ones.

So it does not boil down in "wanting to bone" her as some might think. It is simply that the path with most potential to humanize and flip the bird to those stereotypical traits lie in the romantic path. And it loses out even more because romance is done from the player's perspective. So you also lose out on many people (potentially) running into this stereotype, and then being an interactive part in seeing the stereotype fall apart. Lastly this is not related to Josephine remotely who has a different personality and does not seemingly present those stereotypical traits nor situation.

 

The whole arm-flailing about Vivienne status as non-LI and accusations of racism has come from ridiculous to downright disgusting. I've seen argument that, brought to the logical end result in Viv HAVING to be bonable because she's black, and THAT is not racist ?

 

I think you are misunderstanding this matter. Several of the traits Viv seems to have are part of some rather stereotypical ones. They most easy and preferred way (as expressed by first and foremost black women) to deconstruct or tear those down these, is by having her in a romantic relationship (in the case of this game, it would be as a LI since any relationship she would be in with another NPC would be 99% in off-screen land). People aren’t pulling these conclusions out of their asses. The posters I seen express disappointment over this loss, are obviously familiar with these stereotypical traits and discussions surrounding them. I think misunderstandings are arising because some people are not familiar with these issues (heck in another thread someone said that they don't even believe these things are stereotypical nor a problem because they don't see them. That is despite that if you spend 20 secs on google looking, you will stumble across lots of information about this easily).

 

The problem is that successful black women in the media are usually depicted as "Too strong for a man." and somehow immune to love and affection to the point of coming across just as manly as any man.  All too often white women are the beautiful damsel worthy of love and adortion. So I can understand white females being proud of being shown as career minded, focused, successful, and without a man.  But for black women it's nearly the opposite. It's not to say that black women do not like those depictions as well...  I guess the best way to describe it is that white women are often shown as the epitome of femininity and a lot of that has to do with romance and family whereas black women are usually the antithesis of that. I'm not sure if this is what the poster means, but that's my interpretation of what I see in the media.

 

And no BioW is not wrong for not making Viv a romance option. I don't think anyone is saying they are wrong. But it would have been really nice if she was romancable. Especially since we don't see a lot of dark skinned African featured women in romances in the media.

 

I can not like this post enough. Black women and white women have some issues in common but others they do not when it comes to representation in the media, and you articulated one of them quite beautifully.

To end this big post, would just like to say I do not think anyone is calling the action itself of excluding Viv as a LI racist. Some are just expressing concerns and talking about what could had been and how it would had been great from the perspective of race.

 

*small disclaimer that I am aware we are going by limited information and impressions formed from it.


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#2430
daveliam

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But It's not a problem. 

 

Be honest: If Solas and Cullen weren't LI's none of you would be here complaining, despite having the exact same options. 

 

What matters to you isn't your options, It's what the numbers look like. 

 

The majority of people will play the game, find a romance they like and just enjoy it. The only pain and unhappiness being caused by the LI setup in Inquisition is right here: people letting themselves get upset over something that doesn't matter, and giving themselves no chance of just doing what everyone else will do and simply enjoying the game and what it has. 

 

It's BOTH, the quality AND the quantity.

 

Quality is compromised if you get less options.  Quantity is compromised if you get worse options.  They work together.

 

I'm not complaining about the quality of the romances, because I don't know the quality.  I'm saying that I would like to have the same quantity of options.


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#2431
AlanC9

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It's not really a choice if I only like to romance a certain gender. I tried to romance Alistar as a female, and Morrigan as a male character and I failed. I couldn't enjoy my playthrough. I really tried but I couldn't. It just felt wrong.


You mean romance a certain gender while playing a certain gender, right?

#2432
LiaraShepard

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You mean romance a certain gender while playing a certain gender, right?

 

yes, I prefer romancing male characters with a male protagonist, but also female characters with another female. 



#2433
Sporothrix

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I dunno... lesbians seem to be pretty popular in media, so it's not really that big of a risk is it?  I doubt they would have made a game based around a gay male teenager... I certainly can't think of one.

 

That's actually untrue. Most lesbian characters in the media fall under "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope, so it could be argued that they are bisexual, especially since usually those scenes are portrayed like they enjoy sex with a man very much, something that creator of one show where this trope occured few months ago, Dracula, put more light on:

 

https://twitter.com/...506045349015553

 

Annual GLAAD reports also show that of all LGBT representation in Hollywood movies, gay men make the majority.


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#2434
LiaraShepard

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Annual GLAAD reports also show that of all LGBT representation in Hollywood movies, gay men make the majority.

 

Maybe, but most gay movies are about their coming out. It's not really the case that there would be more movies with gay heroes than lesbian heroes.



#2435
syllogi

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But It's not a problem. 

 

Be honest: If Solas and Cullen weren't LI's none of you would be here complaining, despite having the exact same options. 

 

What matters to you isn't your options, It's what the numbers look like. 

 

The majority of people will play the game, find a romance they like and just enjoy it. The only pain and unhappiness being caused by the LI setup in Inquisition is right here: people letting themselves get upset over something that doesn't matter, and giving themselves no chance of just doing what everyone else will do and simply enjoying the game and what it has. 

 

Eh, don't assume that every LGBT player is obsessed with numbers.  I desperately wanted to romance Cassandra with a female character, and then once it was confirmed that she was off limits, my next best choice for a female LI was Vivienne.  We all know how that went.

 

I hope that I'll enjoy Sera and Josephine's romances, but I'm not all that enthusiastic about them, just because I know that I didn't have a choice in the matter. After going through the motions of Anomen and Carth's romances in BG2 and KOTOR, and feeling resentful because the characters I *really* wanted to romance were forbidden, I decided not to "settle" anymore in games.  I only play female characters, and I'm not going to force myself to play romances that aren't appealing just because they're there.

 

I would be THRILLED if I could get just one f/f romance that was to my taste in a Bioware game, and the closest I've found so far was Isabela in DA2.  Now I'm back to worrying that I'm never going to experience that feeling of having a romance with the leading lady again, and while it's obviously not the end of the world, it's not all that fun either knowing that straight male characters will almost always be catered to in a way that I won't.



#2436
jtav

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I'm aware this is coming out of a position of privilege, but I tend to think in terms of "options I do like vs. "options I don't." For the longest time, I figured the options for straight females were IB and Cullen, neither of which I really wanted. I was fully prepared to romance Josephine and maybe try my hand at rolling a man. I've romanced a woman often enough that it's kind of funny. I think there have been about two LIs that I've been both sexually attracted to and liked as romances.



#2437
Lady Nuggins

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I'm not being snarky here, but wasn't it always unrealistic to expect more options for lesbian or gay players over straight ones? I'm struggling to see how anyone could ever believe this could happen.

 

As progressive as Bioware and EA are, they're still operating in an industry where AAA titles are risky endeavours, and where thousands of jobs literally depend on making a game that sells as well as it possibly can.

 

The (admirable) sentiments of Allan and other devs aside, I just can't see how they could or would ever do that. The media reaction alone would be ridiculous.

 

You know what, though, I don't know if it's all that unrealistic.  It's not a huge leap to go from "everybody has the same number, plus a couple extra for straight women" to "everybody has the same number, plus an extra for gay men."  A few days ago, I would have also said it was unrealistic to expect more options for straight women than for straight men, but here we are.

 

If the goal of Bioware games is to tell good stories with interesting characters, there really isn't any reason why sometimes there couldn't be an extra gay or lesbian or bisexual or trans character in the party.  The "extra" romances didn't happen out of any sense of fairness, they happened because there just happened to be more straight men in the party this time who their writers thought could have an interesting romance arc.  I hope this means that in the future, the same sort of thing might happen with an LGBT character.  


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#2438
LiaraShepard

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You know what, though, I don't know if it's all that unrealistic.  It's not a huge leap to go from "everybody has the same number, plus a couple extra for straight women" to "everybody has the same number, plus an extra for gay men."  A few days ago, I would have also said it was unrealistic to expect more options for straight women than for straight men, but here we are.

 

If the goal of Bioware games is to tell good stories with interesting characters, there really isn't any reason why sometimes there couldn't be an extra gay or lesbian or bisexual or trans character in the party.  The "extra" romances didn't happen out of any sense of fairness, they happened because there just happened to be more straight men in the party this time who their writers thought could have an interesting romance arc.  I hope this means that in the future, the same sort of thing might happen with an LGBT character.  

 

 

Most probably with a bisexual character though.



#2439
Potato Cat

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That's actually untrue. Most lesbian characters in the media fall under "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope, so it could be argued that they are bisexual, especially since usually those scenes are portrayed like they enjoy sex with a man very much, something that creator of one show where this trope occured few months ago, Dracula, put more light on:
 
https://twitter.com/...506045349015553
 
Annual GLAAD reports also show that of all LGBT representation in Hollywood movies, gay men make the majority.

Indeed. And sadly, of the majority of examples I have personally seen, the idea that they might actually be bisexual is never explored. It's not even mentioned half the time. It seems most are just 'bar-sexual' or just sleep with the guy because he's just that good.
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#2440
AlanC9

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Most lesbian characters in the media fall under "lesbian sleeping with a man" trope,


Could you source that? My impression was that sweeps week lesbianism would bring up the average a bit. Though those cases often back off from actually having sex -- I'm looking at you, David E. Kelley.

#2441
Sporothrix

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(Female homosexuality also doesn't receive as much criticism from internet man-children, *and* even then many people were still arguing that the kiss between the female protagonist and her friend was platonic rather than love. People can't be offended by something if they try to deny that it even happened.)

Gay female sexuality not being taken seriously, as well as the talks about "threesome" and even "converting" is hardly something better.



#2442
TheTurtle

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[snip]

This is one of the best post I've seen on this site

 

256621-funny-gifs-citizen-kane-clapping.


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#2443
ElitePinecone

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It's not really a choice if I only like to romance a certain gender. I tried to romance Alistar as a female, and Morrigan as a male character and I failed. I couldn't enjoy my playthrough. I really tried but I couldn't. It just felt wrong. 

 

That's unfortunate, but it's why Bioware have ensured everyone gets at least two options in this game. 

 

If you don't like them, it's not really their fault. They will never satisfy 100% of players with the romantic content, especially the players that care very deeply about it. I suggest the best thing to try is to play the game and see where it takes you. You might be pleasantly surprised.


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#2444
AlanC9

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A little bit more on-topic, I find Solas instead of Vivienne to be the big surprise. The original design was 2-2-2, and then both the new ones go to female PCs? Makes me wonder if there's something in Viv's character arc that rules romance out.

(Cullen's a non-surprise from the chatter here. Hell, a couple of my PCs woulda hit that.)
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#2445
Ianamus

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It's BOTH, the quality AND the quantity.

 

Quality is compromised if you get less options.  Quantity is compromised if you get worse options.  They work together.

 

I'm not complaining about the quality of the romances, because I don't know the quality.  I'm saying that I would like to have the same quantity of options.

 

If Solas and Cullen were not LI's and the setup would be 2/2/2 and you would not think there was an issue. 

 

With Solas and Cullen your quantity of LI's is exactly the same. If you never play a female Inquisitor then absolutely nothing has changed about your entire game experience, in either quantity of quality. If you do play a female Inquisitor then your game has increased in quantity. 

 

What matters isn't the quality or quantity of your game, It's looking at a chart of LI numbers and seeing an even line. 


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#2446
David Gaider

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I do think you and others are missing the point in regards to Viv and race to an extent. Going by what we know of Viv, she is a strong independent black woman, who is ambitious, have goals that she is working hard to reach and she likes to look fabulous. A lot of these things fall into stereotypical traits. If you go into circles where black women discuss these traits/stereotype, what they say very often they would want to see in order to humanize these characters and tear apart the stereotype, is allowing her/them to be vulnerable(!), shown as worthy of love/desirable and showing/receiving affection. And these aspects are very often presented in a romantic context. This partly relates to that this stereotype is often default single, and particularly never shown to be open, affectionate or vulnerable with a romantic partner because of that.

 

Furthermore while you have the Jezebel as the hypersexual, another very widely spread stereotype is The Mammy who is basically treated as asexual. There is no in between here. "At best" you got the Sapphire who nags and nags and emasculates her husband and puts everybody down. That has now partly morphed into the "Angry Black Woman" and what all of these common stereotypes share, is an utter lack of positive romantic relationships, which also not so subtly suggests that black women in general are not good romantic partners or even potential ones.

So it does not boil down in "wanting to bone" her as some might think. It is simply that the path with most potential to humanize and flip the bird to those stereotypical traits lie in the romantic path. And it loses out even more because romance is done from the player's perspective. So you also lose out on many people (potentially) running into this stereotype, and then being an interactive part in going against it. Lastly it is not related to Josephine remotely who has a different personality and does not seemingly present those stereotypical traits.

 

While arguments can be made to boil down any character into a trope-- often to the point of purposefully blurring out any characteristics that don't match the trope in order to do so-- I do understand that tropes can potentially be harmful in aggregate, particularly to minorities.

 

My point was that the opposite argument about Vivienne being present only for fetishization purposes could be made, were she a LI, so suggesting that her not being a LI is also somehow problematic very much presents a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation... aside from rather pointedly ignoring Josephine, in a sense of "but I wanted Vivienne more" kind of way. Which, as I said, I get. Vivienne is awesome. But let's not pretend that people wouldn't make arguments to one end or another regardless.

 

Insofar as to whether Vivienne specifically matches any tropes, "Strong Independent Black Woman" or otherwise, I suggest playing the game and seeing for yourself before assuming that what you fear might be is what she actually is, or that a romance would be required to "humanize" her as a result.


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#2447
Sporothrix

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Could you source that? My impression was that sweeps week lesbianism would bring up the average a bit. Though those cases often back off from actually having sex -- I'm looking at you, David E. Kelley.

 

OK, some examples, all about women who have been consituted to be lesbians, not bisexual women:

 

Aforementioned NBC Dracula, Hannibal, EastEnders, Waterloo Road, Riddick, Masters of Sex, Sugar Rush, BBC Sherlock, Satisfaction, Queer As Folk, The Kids Are All Right, Skins UK, Skins US, Nip/Tuck, Gigli, She Hate Me.

 

 

There's also going to be some really terrible movie with Al Pacino entirely focused on a man "turning" a lesbian:

 

http://www.afterelle...-women/08/2014/


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#2448
LiaraShepard

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With Solas and Cullen your quantity of LI's is exactly the same. If you never play a female Inquisitor then absolutely nothing has changed about your entire game experience, in either quantity of quality. If you do play a female Inquisitor then your game has increased in quantity. 

 

 

I wish my game experience would increase as well :´(



#2449
Cassandra Saturn

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*snip*


David you probably might have not noticed my post regarding pirate outfits

http://forum.bioware...6#entry17273645

#2450
daveliam

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If Solas and Cullen were not LI's and the setup was 2/2/2 you would not think there was an issue. 

 

With Solas and Cullen your quantity of LI's is exactly the same. If you never play a female Inquisitor then absolutely nothing has changed about your entire game experience, in either quantity of quality. If you do play a female Inquisitor then your game has increased in quantity. 

 

What matters isn't the quality or quantity of your game, It's looking at chart of LI numbers and seeing an even line. 

 

What part of this are you not understanding?  If Solas and Cullen were not LI's then quantity would not be an issue.  But they are, so quantity is an issue because, once again, I get less options than other people.  The quality of IB and Dorian's romances are a separate thing.  I have never complained about the quality of my options because I have not experience them yet, so I would have no basis to do so.  However, I can speak to the proportion of romances that are "for me".

 

I want good romances and I want don't want to get less options in every single game.  THAT'S what's important to me. 

 

Don't tell me what matters to me.  I usually keep my cool on these boards but that last line of your post is really making me angry.  I've been clear about what I want and time and time again you feel the need to tell me that what I want is wrong and that I shouldn't want it.  I have never told you that your opinions are less valid, but you feel the need to do so to me every few days.  And it's starting to get old, real quick. 


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