3344 réponses à ce sujet

[LiaraShepard]

Hopefully Dorian will be really great if I don't even get Solas and Blackwall...

[daveliam]

Hopefully Dorian will be really great if I don't even get Solas and Blackwall...

 

He will be.  I feel it in my old and tired bones.  He'll be awesome.

[Parkimus]

Hopefully Dorian will be really great if I don't even get Solas and Blackwall...

 

I feel like you have something great in Store-ian

[ElitePinecone]

You know what, though, I don't know if it's all that unrealistic.  It's not a huge leap to go from "everybody has the same number, plus a couple extra for straight women" to "everybody has the same number, plus an extra for gay men."  A few days ago, I would have also said it was unrealistic to expect more options for straight women than for straight men, but here we are.

 

If the goal of Bioware games is to tell good stories with interesting characters, there really isn't any reason why sometimes there couldn't be an extra gay or lesbian or bisexual or trans character in the party.  The "extra" romances didn't happen out of any sense of fairness, they happened because there just happened to be more straight men in the party this time who their writers thought could have an interesting romance arc.  I hope this means that in the future, the same sort of thing might happen with an LGBT character.  

 

From a narrative point of view I completely agree - it could totally happen. It could've happened in Inquisition if they'd said Blackwall and Solas were both gay or bisexual, for whatever reason.

 

I think it is a huge leap, though, in terms of how the game would be perceived externally, and how that decision would even happen internally. Without kicking up a hornet's nest, more romances for straight women are not anywhere near as controversial as extra male or female same-sex romances.  

 

People are already complaining in this thread (and elsewhere on the internet) that straight males are disadvantaged by having two options. Can you imagine the incandescent rage if gay players had four? The media headlines? The internet drama? The petitions? The sneering and screaming on 4chan and reddit and whatever other places are inhabited by "gamers"?

 

That stuff is terrifying for a studio, its PR team, and probably the executives. Who would approve that at EA? Who in the company could honestly sit down with Andrew Wilson or whichever underling handles DA:I and make a case for putting in more gay options than straight ones?

 

Maybe I'm too cynical, but with AAA's audience the way it is I don't see this happening in a million years. The studio and publisher are far, far too risk-averse to even consider the idea that the majority of romantic content could go to LGB players. It's the sort of thing that wouldn't even get proposed in a meeting, I suspect - to be honest.

[Sporothrix]

OK, some examples, all about women who have been consituted to be lesbians, not bisexual women:

 

Aforementioned NBC Dracula, Hannibal, EastEnders, Waterloo Road, Riddick, Masters of Sex, Sugar Rush, BBC Sherlock, Satisfaction, Queer As Folk, The Kids Are All Right, Skins UK, Skins US, Nip/Tuck, Gigli, She Hate Me.

 

 

There's also going to be some really terrible movie with Al Pacino entirely focused on a man "turning" a lesbian:

 

http://www.afterelle...-women/08/2014/

 

After short check, I could add to it Chasing Amy, Puccini for Beginners, The Monkey's Mask, Goldfish Memory, Your Sister's Sister. I have found out about other examples as well but I'm not sure about the lesbian status of the character so I'll leave it.

[LiaraShepard]

He will be.  I feel it in my old and tired bones.  He'll be awesome.

 

As long as he'll have some story importance and a great personality I'm okay with him. I liked Zevran but he always felt like a minor character compared to Morrigan or Alistair. Hope, this won't be the case again...

[Bobm128]

I'm good w/ the list.  Thanks for posting it!  I play both male and female characters and will play all the races, so I will have the best of all romance progressions as I play.

 

While I was kinda hoping Varric would be available, given his DA2 story line I didn't expect it.

 

Thanks DA & Bioware.  I'm excited about the game and am clearing the release weekend to play.

[daveliam]

From a narrative point of view I completely agree - it could totally happen. It could've happened in Inquisition if they'd said Blackwall and Solas were both gay or bisexual, for whatever reason.

 

I think it is a huge leap, though, in terms of how the game would be perceived externally, and how that decision would even happen internally. Without kicking up a hornet's nest, more romances for straight women are not anywhere near as controversial as extra male or female same-sex romances.  

 

People are already complaining in this thread (and elsewhere on the internet) that straight males are disadvantaged by having two options. Can you imagine the incandescent rage if gay players had four? The media headlines? The internet drama? The petitions? The sneering and screaming on 4chan and reddit and whatever other places are inhabited by "gamers"?

 

That stuff is terrifying for a studio, its PR team, and probably the executives. Who would approve that at EA? Who in the company could honestly sit down with Andrew Wilson or whichever underling handles DA:I and make a case for putting in more gay options than straight ones?

 

Maybe I'm too cynical, but with AAA's audience the way it is I don't see this happening in a million years. The studio and publisher are far, far too risk-averse to even consider the idea that the majority of romantic content could go to LGB players. It's the sort of thing that wouldn't even get proposed in a meeting, I suspect - to be honest.

 

You are probably right.  I'm just kicking myself because I allowed myself to start to think otherwise and I just got a wake-up call that even those companies that are aware of this are still not willing to push the envelope.  It's exactly what I caution other people against doing:  getting my hopes up and then getting frustrated when I was wrong.  So this is just a giant disappointment, but, like all other things, this too shall pass.

[Icy Magebane]

After short check, I could add to it Chasing Amy, Puccini for Beginners, The Monkey's Mask, Goldfish Memory, Your Sister's Sister. I have found out about other examples as well but I'm not sure about the lesbian status of the character so I'll leave it.

If anything you're only strengthening my point with these examples... whether they also like men or not, we're still talking about non-heterosexual women.  Unless you study human sexuality as a hobby, it's easy enough to consider that lesbian, at least on the surface (I know it's more complicated than that, but a bisexual is at least partially homosexual)... all of these examples prove that women being attracted to women is nowhere near as risky a subject matter as men being attracted to men, bisexual or otherwise.  Bisexuality may soften the impact a bit, but the fact remains that the level of taboo on same sex relationships is different for each gender.

[ElitePinecone]

You are probably right.  I'm just kicking myself because I allowed myself to start to think otherwise and I just got a wake-up call that even those companies that are aware of this are still not willing to push the envelope.  It's exactly what I caution other people against doing:  getting my hopes up and then getting frustrated when I was wrong.  So this is just a giant disappointment, but, like all other things, this too shall pass.

 

I'm genuinely sorry that you're disappointed.

[Ianamus]

What part of this are you not understanding?  If Solas and Cullen were not LI's then quantity would not be an issue.  But they are, so quantity is an issue because, once again, I get less options than other people.  The quality of IB and Dorian's romances are a separate thing.  I have never complained about the quality of my options because I have not experience them yet, so I would have no basis to do so.  However, I can speak to the proportion of romances that are "for me".

 

I want good romances and I want don't want to get less options in every single game.  THAT'S what's important to me. 

 

Don't tell me what matters to me.  I usually keep my cool on these boards but that last line of your post is really making me angry.  I've been clear about what I want and time and time again you feel the need to tell me that what I want is wrong and that I shouldn't want it.  I have never told you that your opinions are less valid, but you feel the need to do so to me every few days.  And it's starting to get old, real quick. 

 

It just makes me annoyed to see people pick problems where there needn't be any and make themselves upset. 

 

I don't feel that anyone's opinions are less valid, but I think that people are being self-destructive, and walking in endless loops that will only ever lead to them getting upset time and time again.

 

When I joined these forums long ago I held very much the same opinions as a lot of people. Yes Bioware should make the same number of LI's for everyone! I argued against the homophobic people trolling the threads and it made me happy backing people up who'd only had one option in the last game and arguing for them to keep getting options, and for Bioware to include more LGBT characters. 

 

But since then... It's just been a downward spiral. First set sexualities were announced, and I was so happy that we would probably have a gay companion, and it would be great! The LGB players would be so happy. But all I saw was hate. "Why don't I have access to every LI?!" "Oh my god why would bioware do this?!" "What happened to DA2's approach"?!" I thought 'why are these people getting upset over something like this, final having the representation they deserve in games?'

 

Coming out of that "joy" we get the LI reveals. A gay LI and a lesbian LI, both companions? Fantastic! Everyone will love this... oh wait, Cassandra has been confirmed as straight and the forums are filled with hate again... 

 

We all have two companion LI's! We can all be happy right now guys?! OH no, it looks like straight females happen to get a few more bonus options. downwards spiral of arguing and anger again. 

 

I just... I was so on-board with the majority of the LGB fanbase on the boards when I joined, but since then so many have taken every great announcement and squeezed out some bad side, took every fantastic piece of footage and spiraled into and sadness five minutes later. For the majority of the time waiting for Inquisiton the romance thread was just depressing to go into, so I left it for awhile. 

 

I wish I could have kept good graces, but after seeing people complain about so much, ignoring all the good, focusing on every minuscule flaw and magnifying it... Refusing to let themselves be happy and just enjoy the game...

 

I just can't stand it. It's so whiny. So entitled. Complaining for the sake of complaining. I was so on board with everyone... and now all I see them do is whinge despite having everything I thought they wanted, making themselves upset over a few slightly uneven numbers...

 

 

It's not directed at you specifically, even in my last few responses on this thread, it's just everyone in general (not "everyone", obviously, but everyone in this "group")

 

Maybe I should just avoid the forums for a bit. All they do lately is make me feel miserable, when everything that's been revealed should make me nothing but happy. 

[Sporothrix]

If anything you're only strengthening my point with these examples... whether they also like men or not, we're still talking about non-heterosexual women.  Unless you study human sexuality as a hobby, it's easy enough to consider that lesbian, at least on the surface (I know it's more complicated than that, but a bisexual is at least partially homosexual)... all of these examples prove that women being attracted to women is nowhere near as risky a subject matter as men being attracted to men, bisexual or otherwise.  Bisexuality may soften the impact a bit, but the fact remains that the level of taboo on same sex relationships is different for each gender.

 

If by showing that "lesbian" character is only acceptable if it confirms homophobic myths that are also pandering to men, that "lesbians just need D" and it takes "a right man" to "turn" them I strenghten your point that lesbians (who are being turned by men) are more accepted than gay men, then so be it. But somehow still it's gay men that according to GLAAD have bigger representation than lesbians...

 

And BTW, you're speaking to someone who suffered directly from those homophobic myths about lesbian sexuality that are promoted by the media, which you apparently don't consider as a problem - I'm corrective rape survivor.

[LiaraShepard]

If by showing that "lesbian" character is only acceptable if it confirms homophobic myths that are also pandering to men, that "lesbians just need D" and it takes "a right man" to "turn" them I strenghten your point that lesbians (who are being turned by men) are more accepted than gay men, then so be it. But somehow still it's gay men that according to GLAAD have bigger representation than lesbians...

 

As I said before, most of these gay films are about their coming out (because that's really an issue in our society). And many of those films end tragic. There are neither more gay heroes than lesbian heroes nor more happy gay films.

[daveliam]

I wish I could have kept good graces, but after seeing people complain about so much, ignoring all the good, focusing on every minuscule flaw and magnifying it... Refusing to let themselves be happy and just enjoy the game...

 

 

Except that I, personally, have been more than forthcoming with the things that I'm grateful about.  Yet every time I point out areas where there could still be improvements, you feel the need to quibble with me and nitpick and devalue my opinions.  So, yeah......it's hard not to feel that it's directed at me personally.

[General TSAR]

I hope in the future Bioware just tells people straight up who the romances are out of the gate all this teasing and waiting just leads to bigger disappointment and harsher reactions from fans.

Nah, next time they should be tight-lipped about the romances until after release.

 

The tears of fans would fill the entire Waking Sea.

[Potato Cat]

If anything you're only strengthening my point with these examples... whether they also like men or not, we're still talking about non-heterosexual women.  Unless you study human sexuality as a hobby, it's easy enough to consider that lesbian, at least on the surface (I know it's more complicated than that, but a bisexual is at least partially homosexual)... all of these examples prove that women being attracted to women is nowhere near as risky a subject matter as men being attracted to men, bisexual or otherwise.  Bisexuality may soften the impact a bit, but the fact remains that the level of taboo on same sex relationships is different for each gender.

Umm, no. These examples aren't showing bisexual women. These examples are showing female characters who identify as homosexual, yet sleep with men. As I pointed out earlier, the idea that they might actually be bisexual is rarely discussed, and if it is it's dismissed.

All the same, bad lesbian representation does not equal bisexual representation. Nor does bisexual representation equal lesbian representation. Bisexuality is its own thing, and deserves its own representation. (Which is also severely lacking)

[daveliam]

I'm genuinely sorry that you're disappointed.

 

Meh, I guess I did it to myself.  I'm also disappointed in myself for being disappointed. 

 

But I appreciate the sentiment!

[dan109]

I just don't understand this breakdown. Out of 8 romances, only 2 are available to straight men, and both of them look up there in years. So that's 25% of the options are straight* women, 0% young.

Out of curiousity, Bioware, what percentage of your audience would you say is straight men that would be attracted to young, as opposed to old, women?

There's entitlement, and then there's just absolutely ignoring the largest chunk of your audience.

[Lieutenant Kurin]

Umm, no. These examples aren't showing bisexual women. These examples are showing female characters who identify as homosexual, yet sleep with men. As I pointed out earlier, the idea that they might actually be bisexual is rarely discussed, and if it is it's dismissed.

All the same, bad lesbian representation does not equal bisexual representation. Nor does bisexual representation equal lesbian representation. Bisexuality is its own thing, and deserves its own representation. (Which is also severely lacking)

Piggybacking here: No LGBTQ group has good representation in media right now. None. Arguing who has it worse or better in any form only ends up hurting the other groups who lack representation. Everybody's got it bad, all forms of queerphobia are bad, and as bad as all forms of racism. They're all just bad.

[David Gaider]

You are probably right.  I'm just kicking myself because I allowed myself to start to think otherwise and I just got a wake-up call that even those companies that are aware of this are still not willing to push the envelope.  It's exactly what I caution other people against doing:  getting my hopes up and then getting frustrated when I was wrong.  So this is just a giant disappointment, but, like all other things, this too shall pass.

 

It's unfortunate you're disappointed. I'm not sure, however, that holding out that us providing more gay options than any other as the only means of "pushing the envelope" is a very fair thing to do. The LGBT audience is still pretty small--you must recognize that, yes? I am a gay man, and I recognize that. If BioWare was overly worried about the reaction of the larger audience, we wouldn't be providing content aimed exclusively at gay players at all... but we do, and it's not insignificant. More than that, gay content (meaning characters and story) is present in more places than simply player romances. I'm uncertain how that could be disappointing, unless you're looking for us to single-handedly make up for a lack of such content everywhere else in the industry?

 

If you are, that seems like an expectation that's setting yourself up for disappointment. I hope that our efforts ultimately please you, regardless.

[Icy Magebane]

If by showing that "lesbian" character is only acceptable if it confirms homophobic myths that are also pandering to men, that "lesbians just need D" and it takes "a right man" to "turn" them I strenghten your point that lesbians (who are being turned by men) are more accepted than gay men, then so be it. But somehow still it's gay men that according to GLAAD have bigger representation than lesbians...

 

And BTW, you're speaking to someone who suffered directly from those homophobic myths about lesbian sexuality that are promoted by the media, which you think is no problem - I'm corrective rape survivor.

It sounds like the people behind GLAAD would take into account more factors than the average consumer when viewing sexuality in the media, but that's just my opinion... I also never said that I didn't think it was a problem.  I said that it probably doesn't factor into the mindset of people watching a movie or playing a game.  Two women kissing does not evoke the same emotions in the vast majority of people that two men kissing would, and that's the bottom line for me.  Therefore, a lesbian protagonist in "The Last of Us" (who again, was not revealed to be a lesbian until long after the game's amazing commercial success) is not the same as a gay protagonist in terms of media response and public perception.

 

But again, just my opinions on the matter... I hope I'm not coming across as dismissive, I'm just looking at the evidence and trying to figure out what conclusion most people would come to.  Keep in mind that most people do not think this much about sexuality... it's far more simplistic to the average person.  That's all I'm trying to say.

[Ianamus]

 

Except that I, personally, have been more than forthcoming with the things that I'm grateful about.  Yet every time I point out areas where there could still be improvements, you feel the need to quibble with me and nitpick and devalue my opinions.  So, yeah......it's hard not to feel that it's directed at me personally.

 

To be honest I just find quoting your posts as excellent places to jump into discussions because they usually neatly sum up the general talk going on, they are rarely directed at you specifically, just good points to jump in. 

 

I also like discussing things with you because you're good at debating things, and bring up good points. Sorry if I went a overboard...

 

As I said, it's not you specifically, I just feel like... the BSN is just too depressive and toxic...

 

I guess I should have just worked that one out a long time ago.

 

[Br3admax]

I just don't understand this breakdown. Out of 8 romances, only 2 are available to straight men, and both of them look up there in years. So that's 25% of the options are straight* women, 0% young.

Out of curiousity, Bioware, what percentage of your audience would you say is straight men that would be attracted to young, as opposed to old, women?

There's entitlement, and then there's just absolutely ignoring the largest chunk of your audience.

The number of people who care about the hypothetical years of triangles is pretty small. 

[Lieutenant Kurin]

I just don't understand this breakdown. Out of 8 romances, only 2 are available to straight men, and both of them look up there in years. So that's 25% of the options are straight* women, 0% young.

Out of curiousity, Bioware, what percentage of your audience would you say is straight men that would be attracted to young, as opposed to old, women?

There's entitlement, and then there's just absolutely ignoring the largest chunk of your audience.

They aren't ignoring anyone. And as for determining how much of BioWare's audience is what you suggest is ridiculously subjective, as the last time I checked, BioWare doesn't collect statistics about who their players are. Just the characters produced by them.

[General TSAR]

Ever?

 

In order: Viconia, Aerie, Anomen, Aribeth, Aarin Gend, Valen Shadowbreath, Carth Onasi, Bastila, Alistair, Morrigan, Zevran, Fenris... and now Dorian and Cassandra.

You wrote Zevran? (Tips hat)