134 réponses à ce sujet

[AshesEleven]

As Mike said, there were initially six romances, and then two later added when more time was given them (Cullen and Solas, it seems).  

 

Disappointment is cool, so is being upset.  But I think it's important to look at it this way: everything is equal.  There are two straights, two bisexuals, and two gays.  In addition, there are two "bonus" romances, for straight humans and straight elves (both female).  

 

I mean, you can look at it in the way that Bioware gave straight people more options, but that would be a simplification.  They gave straight women more options if they happen to be playing one of two races.  Many will be playing humans, it's true, but how many players of the game will play as a female elf?  A minority.  

 

Everyone has at least two options.  There could have been only six romances, but the developers had the time to make more content, and for that I am supremely happy.  I don't see that as a bad thing.    

[themageguy]

+ 10 approval

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

True everyone gets 2 options except when it comes to the two race gates but I am happy with the results. I get my girl Sera no more "oh Sera hates nobles so she may be gated against humans" nonsense. I don't see the point in being upset about only having two options since in Origins Straight males had two options, Straight Females had 2 options and gay male and females had 2 options each, In DA 2 both straight and gay males and females had 2 options each (I don't count Sebastian since from what I heard his romance is a joke) So yeah very happy  

[Nocte ad Mortem]

It would only be equal if everyone got "bonus" options. When one group gets them, it stops being equal.

[sandalisthemaker]

Yeah, I'm not going to pretend to be happy that they worked super extra hard....to give 2 extra romances to one group of players and not others.

[Samahl]

And let's not forget the fact that black women in the DA series are either promiscuous and highly sexualized or they're untouchable ice queens who don't get to be romantically available because they're sooo strong and independent and they don't need no man~

[jedicam10]

And let's not forget the fact that black women in the DA series are either promiscuous and highly sexualized or they're untouchable ice queens who don't get to be romantically available because they're sooo strong and independent and they don't need no man~

I'm sorry...What? Are you referring to Isabella? She never came off as 'Black' to me, more Mediterranean than anything.

As for Vivienne, you could say that she actually IS a deviation from stereotypes of Black women as being lower class and uncultured.

If you want to make the argument that there should be more black people in DA, that's fine. But I've yet to see a pattern of disrespect towards black people in the series as a whole.

[Br3admax]

Isabela is Rivani, so yeah, she's DA "black."

 

As to the topic, don't really care, so you're preaching to the choir, OP. 

[Samahl]

I'm sorry...What? Are you referring to Isabella? She never came off as 'Black' to me, more Mediterranean than anything.

 

Isabela doesn't look black, but the devs said she was.

 

As for Vivienne, you could say that she actually IS a deviation from stereotypes of Black women as being lower class and uncultured.

 

Yeah, they turned right around and made a black woman an oppressor stereotype. Classy. Has nothing to do with her not being a romance option, by the way.

 

If you want to make the argument that there should be more black people in DA, that's fine. But I've yet to see a pattern of disrespect towards black people in the series as a whole.

 

My point was twofold: 1) the sample size is tiny, because I only have these two examples to draw from, which is a problem, and 2) the only black characters we have fulfill racist tropes, which is also a problem.

[raging_monkey]

Romances are jus chocochips on ice cream

[TheLastSuperSaiyan87]

No use in complaining about this not like its going to change anything

[jedicam10]

Isabela doesn't look black, but the devs said she was.


Yeah, they turned right around and made a black woman an oppressor stereotype. Classy. Has nothing to do with her not being a romance option, by the way.


My point was twofold: 1) the sample size is tiny, because I only have these two examples to draw from, which is a problem, and 2) the only black characters we have fulfill racist tropes, which is also a problem.

I appreciate that you didn't respond with hostility.

1) Fair enough on the issue of Isabela's race. Though I think she fits the promiscuous pirate rogue stereotype in games more than anything.

2) As for being an oppressor, that's a bit of a stretch. She's a high ranking advisor to the throne and a player in The Game. Yes, she is well regarded among most supporters of Celene but keep in mind, she is still a Mage. She can only have so much power before the Templars or the Chantry would oppose her and she knows this. Her rise to power was an uphill battle, more so than for most. This makes her more of a self-made woman more than anything: definitely the opposite of the stereotypical black woman.

I agree, this has little to do woth her being a romance option, but you are the one that said her not being romancable was what made her fit into one of two stereotypes you claimed Bioware uses in DA.

[Palidane]

My point was twofold: 1) the sample size is tiny, because I only have these two examples to draw from, which is a problem, and 2) the only black characters we have fulfill racist tropes, which is also a problem.

I know right? The last thing we need is yet another powerful, ambitious black person. You can't walk 10 feet without tripping over one of them nowadays.

[Samahl]

2) As for being an oppressor, that's a bit of a stretch. She's a high ranking advisor to the throne and a player in The Game. Yes, she is well regarded among most supporters of Celene but keep in mind, she is still a Mage. She can only have so much power before the Templars or the Chantry would oppose her and she knows this. Her rise to power was an uphill battle, more so than for most. This makes her more of a self-made woman more than anything: definitely the opposite of the stereotypical black woman.

 

The food she was compared to is high in cruelty, she is portrayed as ambitious and ruthless, and she's pro-establishment. She is quite reminiscent of oppressors.

 

I agree, this has little to do woth her being a romance option, but you are the one that said her not being romancable was what made her fit into one of two stereotypes you claimed Bioware uses in DA.

 

There is a stereotype of black women being "strong and independent", to the point where that's all they ever are. They're not shown as capable of loving or being loved, of being gentle, sensitive, emotional, or delicate. From where I'm standing, Vivienne seems to fit that trope to a T.

 

It wouldn't be as much of a problem if BioWare made a habit of including a variety black characters in their games, but they don't. They've written themselves into a corner.

[Samahl]

I know right? The last thing we need is yet another powerful, ambitious black person. You can't walk 10 feet without tripping over one of them nowadays.

 

Hi, please actually read posts and/or ask for clarification in order to avoid strawmanning people, yes?

[Fizzie Panda]

It would only be equal if everyone got "bonus" options. When one group gets them, it stops being equal.

I'm all for extra stuff

 

But I'm even more for equality

 

 

Friendly reminder to everyone: Don't attack the Devs at their decision, it's the difference between real people and virtual characters.

[Palidane]

There is a stereotype of black women being "strong and independent", to the point where that's all they ever are. They're not shown as capable of loving or being loved, of being gentle, sensitive, emotional, or delicate. From where I'm standing, Vivienne seems to fit that trope to a T.

Oh, come on. If she was that, you'd be bashing Bioware for having a walking "Women are sensitive, emotional weaklings" stereotype. I literally cannot imagine a single character concept that could not be twisted to fit one stereotype or another. Characters have to be flawed, I don't understand why people have problems with this.

[Samahl]

Oh, come on. If she was that, you'd be bashing Bioware for having a walking "Women are sensitive, emotional weaklings" stereotype.

 

No, I wouldn't.

[Maria Caliban]

There is a stereotype of black women being "strong and independent", to the point where that's all they ever are. They're not shown as capable of loving or being loved, of being gentle, sensitive, emotional, or delicate. From where I'm standing, Vivienne seems to fit that trope to a T.

You lost me here.

A person can be loving, gentle, sensitive, emotional, and delicate without romancing the PC. They can be none of these things and still romance the PC.

You are acting as though the only way she couldn't be 1-dimentional is if she's an LI.

[Pierce Miller]

Both bonus romances are for straight female characters, One cannot help but feel a bit miffed.

[Zu Long]

Oh, come on. If she was that, you'd be bashing Bioware for having a walking "Women are sensitive, emotional weaklings" stereotype. I literally cannot imagine a single character concept that could not be twisted to fit one stereotype or another. Characters have to be flawed, I don't understand why people have problems with this.

 

And if the character doesn't have enough flaws for some people, they'll call that character a Mary Sue. It is truly impossible to please everyone. But some people are a LOT harder to please than others.

[Palidane]

No, I wouldn't.

Maybe not you specifically, but I guarantee other people would. All the things you listed are traditionally feminine traits, and some people seem to think that feminine women are doormats/worthless/whatever. You think Bioware is creating a cold-hearted ****** that reflects badly on black people, many others think they are making a strong, powerful women who reflects greatly on feminism. What makes you think your concerns are more important than theirs?

[Lillian]

Friendly Reminder that there is no perfect person, and there is no perfect character. 

Also, all we have seen is her outside/initial characteristics, which are cold and intimidating. We don't know what she's like if you chip past that exterior. You can't judge her and brush her over as a "stereotype/trope/archetype" when you know very little about her.

Again, all we've seen of her is her in her political environment.

What if she loves to organize parties, so she can feel like the Dancing Queen again?

What if, deep down, she wants to thrive, so she can see her parents again?

We don't know, and there's not doubt in my mind that she's more complex than what she appears to be.

[Samahl]

A person can be loving, gentle, sensitive, emotional, and delicate without romancing the PC. They can be none of these things and still romance the PC.

 

She can be. She might be. That's partially why directly after I said that, I wrote "from where I'm standing" and "she seems". Either way, black women are not considered romantically viable very often in anything, least of all video games.