134 réponses à ce sujet

[Samahl]

Maybe not you specifically, but I guarantee other people would. All the things you listed are traditionally feminine traits, and some people seem to think that feminine women are doormats/worthless/whatever. You think Bioware is creating a cold-hearted ****** that reflects badly on black people, many others think they are making a strong, powerful women who reflects greatly on feminism. What makes you think your concerns are more important than theirs?

 

I don't really care about white feminists who feel empowered by racist tropes.

[Palidane]

I don't really care about white feminists who feel empowered by racist tropes.

Ahah, so feminists who respect strong women only care about white people now? Care to dig that hole any deeper?

[Samahl]

Ahah, so feminists who respect strong women only care about white people now? Care to dig that hole any deeper?

 

It's more that white feminism prioritizes white women at the expense of women of color. But whatever, this line of discussion is rather pointless, since you've continually read things into my posts that I haven't actually said.

[TheJediSaint]

Or maybe Bioware doesn't give a **** about black steryotypes and just pursued a character concept they thought was cool?

[Palidane]

It's more that white feminism prioritizes white women at the expense of women of color. But whatever, this line of discussion is rather pointless, since you've continually read things into my posts that I haven't actually said.

I'm sorry you feel that way. I still have no idea what stereotype you are referring too, and even if it's exists, is that necessarily a bad thing? I don't know, seems like you could have worse problems than a powerful and influential portrayal of a black person.

[jellobell]

Sucks for the people who were disappointed in their options. I know it's rough to really hope for something only to get let down. However, the two romances that were added in were for characters that had already been fully-written, which is why they are restricted like they are.

 

Really, the way this probably happened was that Bioware planned out 6 romances that were all equal any way you sliced them (except Iron Bull was race gated). Then they got a whole year of extra dev time. So they took a look at the characters they already had, and the writers for Cullen and Solas said that they would be interested in writing romances for them. The unequal gender ratio is more a consequence of there being more male companions overall.

[Ninjasplaycardgames2]

Or maybe Bioware doesn't give a **** about black steryotypes and just pursued a character concept they thought was cool?

I love you

[Faerlyte]

There has been a history of straight women getting the shaft when it comes to equal representation in the LI department. Shockingly, I have still played Bioware games and enjoyed them.

 

Perhaps Bioware has some statistical evidence that lead them to lean the way they did in the ratio. People have endured with much less before this. I think they can handle the imbalance. 

[Palidane]

There has been a history of straight women getting the shaft when it comes to equal representation in the LI department. Shockingly, I have still played Bioware games and enjoyed them.

 

Perhaps Bioware has some statistical evidence that lead them to lean the way they did in the ratio. People have endured with much less before this. I think they can handle the imbalance. 

While I do agree, that does seem like exactly the sort of thing the complainers would say, especially when the statistics we do have back them up.

[Mes]

It's more that white feminism prioritizes white women at the expense of women of color. 

 

Hi, white feminist here! And I'm confused. 

[frylock23]

Honestly, I would have preferred they not give the race-gated LIs to straight females even if it limited our options. As it is, the only straight females who profit from this are the ones who play humans and elves. If you play a dwarf or qunari, you are no better off than anyone else. So, whether or not you are "getting extra" as a straight female depends on what you are playing.

 

I wish they had given one of the race-gates to one of the other demographics, and I seriously thought they would after they announced how restrictive Solas was going to be.

 

As far as the devs choices go, I'm not going to argue beyond that. The writers generally do an amazing job when they are allowed to write the characters they want to write. So I am very much looking forward to that. 

[LobselVith8]

Ahah, so feminists who respect strong women only care about white people now? Care to dig that hole any deeper?

 

Why are you intentionally misconstruing what Samahl is saying? I don't think that's proper for civil or honest discussion. I could be mistaken, but Samahl seems to be addressing that (in Samahl's opinion) there is an issue with the depiction of black women in Dragon Age, which comes across as problematic for different reasons. Why don't we actually address that point sincerely?

[Maria Caliban]

She can be. She might be. That's partially why directly after I said that, I wrote "from where I'm standing" and "she seems". Either way, black women are not considered romantically viable very often in anything, least of all video games.

I think Mary is a better writer than you give her credit for.

Or maybe Bioware doesn't give a **** about black steryotypes and just pursued a character concept they thought was cool?

I think Mary is a better writer than you give her credit for.

[jellobell]

Perhaps Bioware has some statistical evidence that lead them to lean the way they did in the ratio. People have endured with much less before this. I think they can handle the imbalance. 

 

I highly doubt it. From the way they've described how they write characters and romances, I think it's simply that they had the time to add in two extra romances, and Solas and Cullen were the ones that got written. There are probably good reasons why none of the other characters got romances (Cole because that wouldn't be healthy, Leliana because of her DAO romance, Varric because of Bianca, and Vivienne for some reason we don't know about). The six romances that would've been in the game if it hadn't gotten delayed were all equal. Everyone got a choice, which was the goal Bioware was going for.

[LobselVith8]

Or maybe Bioware doesn't give a **** about black steryotypes and just pursued a character concept they thought was cool?

 

So it's okay for Bioware to engage in stereotypes about black people, as long as they think the concept is cool? I couldn't disagree more with this line of thought.

[Palidane]

Why are you intentionally misconstruing what Samahl is saying? I don't think that's proper for civil or honest discussion. I could be mistaken, but Samahl seems to be addressing that (in Samahl's opinion) there is an issue with the depiction of black women in Dragon Age, which comes across as problematic for different reasons. Why don't we actually address that point sincerely?

I'm not misconstruing a thing. I said his ideal depiction of Vivienne would clash with the goals and aims of the Feminists, who he immediately put down as a bunch of white girls who don't care about black women. He literally said that, check the top of the page.

[Hellion Rex]

So it's okay for Bioware to engage in stereotypes about black people, as long as they think the concept is cool? I couldn't disagree more with this line of thought.

You don't need to twist his words like that. That's not what he meant Lob.

[frylock23]

Considering that the previous engines used for these games did not in general render people of color very well, it's hard to draw any conclusions about how well BioWare (Dragon Age team in particular) handles people of color. Like a previous poster, I thought Isabela was dark-skinned Spanish, perhaps with some Moorish ancestry (yes, she's from Rivain in Thedas), but definitely closer to European than African in her heritage.

 

You can see that Viv is a beautiful woman clearly intended to look more African. This engine, for the first time, will allow us to actually make characters who look truly, believably African. And I expect to see more NPCs that look it running around then we had in games past. Frankly, I was glad we didn't have them before because the engine made them look awful. This one pulls it off awesomely and realistically. Now, we can see what BioWare is really intending Thedas to look like ethnically.

 

So we'll have a better idea about how BioWare intends to handle that issue.

[LobselVith8]

Hi, white feminist here! And I'm confused. 

 

Samahl seems to be addressing certain people who prioritize certain people over others. I don't think Bioware is intentionally trying to step on anyone's toes, but maybe a civil discussion could shed some light on issues that some find problematic, especially if it's coming across that way for people.

[Mes]

Samahl seems to be addressing certain people who prioritize certain people over others. I don't think Bioware is intentionally trying to step on anyone's toes, but maybe a civil discussion could shed some light on issues that some find problematic, especially if it's coming across that way for people.

 

From what I understand, he/she is just disappointed that Viv is not romanceable and is blaming white people and white feminists in particular.

 

I really think that Viv is a character who happens to be black who also happens to not be romanceable. For instance Varric isn't a LI either - so what?

 

I know black women and their characterizations face a heck of a lot of problems in media, however I don't think Bioware specifically is guilty of anything here. It's also hard to judge if there are any racially motivated stereotypes going on as, to my memory, Viv is the first black female companion in a Bioware game. 

 

Thoughts?

[jedicam10]

Or maybe Bioware doesn't give a **** about black steryotypes and just pursued a character concept they thought was cool?

This is ultimately my position.

I think that no matter what approach Bioware made with a black female character, it she would be susceptible to criticism. If she was poor, people would be claiming she's a stereotype that all black people are poor. If she was sensitive and weak, people would complain that she a stereotype of the weak-willed female companion.

The fact is, that without playing the game, we don't know for sure what trope or standard we can pigeon hole this character into. I think that we could use more black people in the series but keep in mind that the player character can be any ethnicity we want.

[Maria Caliban]

I think women of color have good reason to feel feminism has neglected them. Feminism is dominated by the opinions of white women, and women of color who feel their needs aren't addressed are many times ignored or shouted down.

From what I understand, he/she is just disappointed that Viv is not romanceable and is blaming white people and white feminists in particular.

I don't think Samahl is *blaming* anyone. Samahl is expressing legitimate concerns.

[Tevinter Rose]

Viv not being a romance is incredibly disappointing to me but that in and of itself isn't necessarily a stereotype. If Viv ends up being bossy, generally unpleasant and also disparages relationships she will end up fitting the "black woman who doesn't need anyone" stereotype to a T. Since I hope that is not the case, I'm trying to have faith that she will be written better.

[Tevinter Rose]

I think women of color have good reason to feel feminism has neglected them. Feminism is dominated by the opinions of white women, and women of color who feel their needs aren't addressed are many times ignored or shouted down.

 

+1, ran out of likes.

[LobselVith8]

You don't need to twist his words like that. That's not what he meant Lob.

 

I don't see how anything was twisted. TheJediSaint saying "Or maybe Bioware doesn't give a **** about black steryotypes and just pursued a character concept they thought was cool?" doesn't leave much room for different interpretations.

 

However, if you're trying to argue that TheJediSaint poorly worded his post, that's another thing entirely. Either way, it's not really conducive to discussing the matter properly.

 

Samahl is trying to address that the depiction of black women comes across as problematic. I think that's an important point worth discussing, since this isn't the first time it's been brought up. I don't think anyone on either side of this discussion is saying that any intentional ill intent was meant by the developers, but much like some problematic issues with Serendipity and Maevaris Tilani, it's something that might need to be addressed so they become aware that some players see an issue with how it's been handled. I think that's worth discussing.